Flight to London Gatwick crashes at airport in India .June 12 th 2025

[indicolite22]

The other pilot, fit physically, but needing to extend his license. Question, what was needed for it and whether “pilot flying” was the condition for extension, hence, he flew on 171 flight?

SBM. Pilots normally alternate between pilot flying and pilot monitoring roles, so both get the necessary experience by design. But regardless of who is flying, the captain remains the highest authority.

 

[Dotta]

So I read again through official Air India preliminary investigation.

Pilot Sabharwal had his last Class I medical evaluation on September 5, 2024.

Pilot Kunder has similar evaluation on February 4, 2025.

————-

I don’t know how often pilots need to have their medicals done in India. Is it every 6 months or annually? But surely, Sabharwal’s one was not “shortly before” the flight. It was almost a year before.

About licenses: Sabharwal’s ATPL license holder was valid till September 14 2026.

Kunder’s CPL license holder was valid till September 26 2025.

—————

So on the captain’s side, either the medical evaluation lapsed or he knew that he won’t pass another one.

On the FO’s side, his CPL license was expiring soon.

The way it looks to me, one pilot is quite experienced, with some issues going on in his life, some stress of which we still know little, planning to retire.

The other pilot, fit physically, but needing to extend his license. Question, what was needed for it and whether “pilot flying” was the condition for extension, hence, he flew on 171 flight?

In India

Re Medical checks

Pilots under 40 - Renew every 12 months

Pilots over 40 - Renew every 6 months

According to this link:

Pilot Medical Requirements India: The Ultimate 7-Point Checklist

Meet Pilot Medical Requirements India with this checklist. Learn about vision, hearing, heart health, mental fitness, and DGCA medical renewals.

www.pilotcareer.in

 

[indicolite22]

SNIPPED FOR FOCUS: I had read and heard he was divorced. And, a broadcast with two other pilots claimed "he went through a bad divorce" but that it was not uncommon. Okay.
Unfortunately this has become a "them vs us discussion/topic" and claims of corporate cover ups.
One journalist claiming the WSJ got the story even before the initial investigation was released. Hmmm. maybe many news outlets received it, but India Press chose not to print it, because it was not what they expected?? This has become a rallying point to air past aggrievances. and therefore every piece of evidence, regardless of how factual will be overshadowed by claims of bias.
Indian Airline?, Indian Pilots?, Indian Airport?, Indian Maintenance? But it has to be someone else's fault., right? Wrong!

• Jan. 1st, 1978. Air India Flight 855 crashed due to the pilot being Spatially Disoriented. All 213 are killed.
• 2010: Air India Express Flight 812 goes beyond the runway and crashes. 160 people are killed.

Just as we can list airline's past accidents due to pilot error, we could also find recent disasters where the manufacturer was at fault. IMO it's important to consider the facts of a particular case. If this was pilot sabotage, those previous crashes have nothing to do with it.

 

[Charlot123]

SNIPPED FOR FOCUS: I had read and heard he was divorced. And, a broadcast with two other pilots claimed "he went through a bad divorce" but that it was not uncommon. Okay.
Unfortunately this has become a "them vs us discussion/topic" and claims of corporate cover ups.
One journalist claiming the WSJ got the story even before the initial investigation was released. Hmmm. maybe many news outlets received it, but India Press chose not to print it, because it was not what they expected?? This has become a rallying point to air past aggrievances. and therefore every piece of evidence, regardless of how factual will be overshadowed by claims of bias.
Indian Airline?, Indian Pilots?, Indian Airport?, Indian Maintenance? But it has to be someone else's fault., right? Wrong!

• Jan. 1st, 1978. Air India Flight 855 crashed due to the pilot being Spatially Disoriented. All 213 are killed.
• 2010: Air India Express Flight 812 goes beyond the runway and crashes. 160 people are killed.

I am not sure that the with to push the blame on Boeing or Indian Government is triggered by “us versus them”. I can’t speak for the victims’ families.

But is discussing their lawyers against the forum rules? If not, the first thing that comes to mind is obvious.

And - they were already told that it was neither the plane nor the maintenance or the fuel factor… They don’t accept it. Up to them. We the public have to think of what is important for aviation.

About India and Indians, I think as pilots they were comparable to US pilots. Living in Mumbai, a humongous city, adds one more layer in intensity, and the need to fill in flight schedule may be an additional one. But overall, we have to discuss it the same way we’d discuss our pilots. What challenges did the pilots face as humans?

The friends’ surprise is understandable. After all, Andreas Lubitz, the Germanswings pilot, was described as “extremely polite and soft-spoken, aviation likes such people”. “A great athlete in love with the sky.” The fact that he was so unbelievably controlling towards his GF that she left the day before his flight was not known to anyone.

Sabharwal. Can someone be extremely nice to a doorman in his dad’s apartment? Yes, no doubt. What I have found for the first time - was me not reading through the articles, or was it articles not being precise about it? - but I thought Captain Sabharwal was living with his dad. Now the linked articles say, he was having own apartment in Mumbai and visiting dad 2-3 times a week.

Hiring a maid to look after an ailing man is one thing. Moving in with an ailing dad was another one. Was Captain Sabharwal ready to totally change his life? I am imagining it being a stressor because I lived with this situation, a bedridden dad living in another country. Not moving him anywhere and hiring a round-the-clock group of trained caregivers was the best choice. But financially, be prepared to pay a lot.

But captain Sabharwal recently divorced. And here again, comes the question of his financial situation. What was he looking towards?

 

[emirates1957]

SBM. Pilots normally alternate between pilot flying and pilot monitoring roles, so both get the necessary experience by design. But regardless of who is flying, the captain remains the highest authority.

Spot on ….and that’s how they get their hours.

 

[Spectrix]

Thank you for the well expressed reply !

From the picture I've uploaded it's still fairly close to the tarmac , which makes me think this happened literally after rotation if not during .

I agree it's still very close to the ground. It appears that the fuel switches were turned off three seconds after the rear landing gear left the tarmac, and the RAT deployed a further five seconds after that .

From the preliminary report I'll paste the relevant information:

The aircraft air/ground sensors transitioned to air mode, consistent with liftoff at 08:08:39
UTC.
The aircraft achieved the maximum recorded airspeed of 180 Knots IAS at about 08:08:42
UTC and immediately thereafter, the Engine 1 and Engine 2 fuel cutoff switches transitioned
from RUN to CUTOFF position one after another with a time gap of 01 sec.

As per the EAFR data both engines N2 values passed below minimum idle speed, and the
RAT hydraulic pump began supplying hydraulic power at about 08:08:47 UTC

As per the EAFR, the Engine 1 fuel cutoff switch transitioned from CUTOFF to RUN at about
08:08:52 UTC. The APU Inlet Door began opening at about 08:08:54 UTC, consistent with
the APU Auto Start logic. Thereafter at 08:08:56 UTC the Engine 2 fuel cutoff switch also
transitions from CUTOFF to RUN.

 

[CriLondon]

I agree it's still very close to the ground. It appears that the fuel switches were turned off three seconds after the rear landing gear left the tarmac, and the RAT deployed a further five seconds after that .

From the preliminary report I'll paste the relevant information:

The aircraft air/ground sensors transitioned to air mode, consistent with liftoff at 08:08:39
UTC.
The aircraft achieved the maximum recorded airspeed of 180 Knots IAS at about 08:08:42
UTC and immediately thereafter, the Engine 1 and Engine 2 fuel cutoff switches transitioned
from RUN to CUTOFF position one after another with a time gap of 01 sec.

As per the EAFR data both engines N2 values passed below minimum idle speed, and the
RAT hydraulic pump began supplying hydraulic power at about 08:08:47 UTC

As per the EAFR, the Engine 1 fuel cutoff switch transitioned from CUTOFF to RUN at about
08:08:52 UTC. The APU Inlet Door began opening at about 08:08:54 UTC, consistent with
the APU Auto Start logic. Thereafter at 08:08:56 UTC the Engine 2 fuel cutoff switch also
transitions from CUTOFF to RUN.

Which begs another question , but I suspect this is more to do with airline policies and procedures . Many airlines I work with and have worked with have an APU on policy until a certain altitude has been reached ( and that isn't a fixed value as far as I know ) .
I would imagine that this is a fuel saving exercise as the APU does burn fuel and in this age of high operating costs ...

 

[Spectrix]

Which begs another question , but I suspect this is more to do with airline policies and procedures . Many airlines I work with and have worked with have an APU on policy until a certain altitude has been reached ( and that isn't a fixed value as far as I know ) .
I would imagine that this is a fuel saving exercise as the APU does burn fuel and in this age of high operating costs ...

These days the policy for most airlines is power down the APU once the two (or four) engines are running. As you say, it's a fuel saving measure.
Although sometimes the APU might be left on until after take off in special cases such as extreme heat to take some load off the engines or very icy conditions to run anti-icing systems during take off.

In the case of this particular crash, it's unlikely that having the APU running during take off would have made much of a difference (aside from the RAT not automatically deploying). Having the fuel cut off for 10+ seconds meant that both engines spooled down below idle.
After the fuel was switched back on, one of the engines had began to recover but the aircraft struck buildings before it got anywhere close to providing any thrust.

 

[IQuestion]

snipped for focus: " was me not reading through the articles, or was it articles not being precise about it? - but I thought Captain Sabharwal was living with his dad. Now the linked articles say, he was having own apartment in Mumbai and visiting dad 2-3 times a week."
Oh Charlot123 it definitely isn't just you!! I have read so many articles with differing information.
Half of the articles have different ages for CapS...from 54 to 60 years of age. And age 82 to 92 for his Father. Planned retirement, last one or two flights, his employer saying he was retiring, to he was "thinking" about retiring. Of course my question is, "What formal paperwork was submitted for
retiring?" (I'm guessing there wasn't any completed?)
And then this article came out:
The regulator noted that these officials have been involved in "serious and repeated lapses including unauthorised and non-compliant crew pairings, violation of mandatory licensing and recency norms and systemic failures in scheduling protocol and oversight".

Aviation Body Orders Removal Of 3 Air India Officials Over Crew Rostering

Aviation safety watchdog DGCA has ordered Tata Group-owned Air India to remove its three officials, including a divisional vice president, from all roles and responsibilities related to crew scheduling and rostering over serious lapses.

www.ndtv.com

And the initials require a notebook to keep up with all these agencies: DGCA, IOCC, ARMS, CAE, and what is "recency norms."????

 

[CriLondon]

These days the policy for most airlines is power down the APU once the two (or four) engines are running. As you say, it's a fuel saving measure.
Although sometimes the APU might be left on until after take off in special cases such as extreme heat to take some load off the engines or very icy conditions to run anti-icing systems during take off.

In the case of this particular crash, it's unlikely that having the APU running during take off would have made much of a difference (aside from the RAT not automatically deploying). Having the fuel cut off for 10+ seconds meant that both engines spooled down below idle.
After the fuel was switched back on, one of the engines had began to recover but the aircraft struck buildings before it got anywhere close to providing any thrust.

Yep agreed , it wouldn't have made a difference . Aircraft was just too low.

 

[Dotta]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1946924232157605930

https://twitter.com/x/status/1946911683324043516

https://twitter.com/x/status/1946933968479162752

 

[indicolite22]

And the initials require a notebook to keep up with all these agencies: DGCA, IOCC, ARMS, CAE, and what is "recency norms."????

SBM, BBM. Recency norms refer to the requirements of recent flight experience for pilots.

 

[Dotta]

"Air India's 'seat 11A' miracle survivor ​

living 'life of torment' since crash.​

The 'miracle man' told relatives ​

how he relives the doomed flight in his dreams as he stays in India to recuperate."​

Air India's 'seat 11A' miracle survivor living 'life of torment' since crash

The 'miracle man' told relatives how he relives the doomed flight in his dreams as he stays in India to recuperate

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[Ssschu]

"Air India's 'seat 11A' miracle survivor ​

living 'life of torment' since crash.​

The 'miracle man' told relatives ​

how he relives the doomed flight in his dreams as he stays in India to recuperate."​

View attachment 602995

Air India's 'seat 11A' miracle survivor living 'life of torment' since crash

The 'miracle man' told relatives how he relives the doomed flight in his dreams as he stays in India to recuperate

www.mirror.co.uk

Unimaginable what this poor man will go through the rest of his life.

 

[gregjrichards]

‘The repatriation of Britons killed in the Air India disaster has been horrifically bungled, the Daily Mail can reveal.

Bereaved families are suffering fresh heartache because the remains of their loved ones were wrongly identified before being flown home.

Relatives of one victim had to abandon funeral plans after being informed that their coffin contained the body of an unknown passenger rather than their family member.’

Inside Ozzy's final days: How rockman's family rushed to his side

Bereaved families are suffering fresh heartache because the remains of their loved ones were wrongly identified before being flown home.

www.dailymail.co.uk

This is horrendous for the families. They families who have held funerals both cremations and burials must be wondering if it was their loved one they had.

 

[Dotta]

‘The repatriation of Britons killed in the Air India disaster has been horrifically bungled, the Daily Mail can reveal.

Bereaved families are suffering fresh heartache because the remains of their loved ones were wrongly identified before being flown home.

Relatives of one victim had to abandon funeral plans after being informed that their coffin contained the body of an unknown passenger rather than their family member.’

Inside Ozzy's final days: How rockman's family rushed to his side

Bereaved families are suffering fresh heartache because the remains of their loved ones were wrongly identified before being flown home.

www.dailymail.co.uk

This is horrendous for the families. They families who have held funerals both cremations and burials must be wondering if it was their loved one they had.

I, unfortunately, suspected it

The DNA exams were made in a hurry because of extraordinary circumstances.

JMO

 

[gregjrichards]

"Air India's 'seat 11A' miracle survivor ​

living 'life of torment' since crash.​

The 'miracle man' told relatives ​

how he relives the doomed flight in his dreams as he stays in India to recuperate."​

View attachment 602995

Air India's 'seat 11A' miracle survivor living 'life of torment' since crash

The 'miracle man' told relatives how he relives the doomed flight in his dreams as he stays in India to recuperate

www.mirror.co.uk

I can’t imagine the emotional trauma Vishwash must be feeling day and night. I hope he is receiving trauma counseling in order to help him cope with the death of his brother and the other passengers, the survivors' guilt of being the only survivor and not being able to save his brother. Hopefully a counselor will be able to help him realise that he should not blame himself for not being able to save his brother or the other passengers or feel guilt for surviving. Everything related to the crash was entirely out of his control and there was nothing he could have done differently. Even if his brother had been sitting next to him, his brother probably still would not have survived given the passengers sitting beside him did not.

Vishwash has a very long and difficult road ahead, and he is going to be trying to live with the magnitude of this terrible tragedy for the rest of his life. I really hope he is able in time to find a sense of purpose in life and is able to find some happiness from living a full life like his brother would want him to.

 

[gregjrichards]

I, unfortunately, suspected it

The DNA exams were made in a hurry because of extraordinary circumstances.

JMO

You’re right. I remember being surprised at how quickly the DNA results were happening and how quickly the crash victims were being identified. I presumed the process was going to take weeks and months like it would if the tragedy had happened in other countries. I know that Hindu funerals are usually conducted relatively quickly with cremations normally happening within 24 hours after a loved one has passed away. I fully appreciate there must have been tremendous pressure to release the remains of loved ones to their families as soon as possible, but this should not have had any bearing. The process of identifying victims should have been meticulous and taken as long as necessary to avoid this situation where families have the additional trauma of being given the remains of other passengers, not their own loved ones.

 

[Charlot123]

I, unfortunately, suspected it

The DNA exams were made in a hurry because of extraordinary circumstances.

JMO

Well, having a mix, sadly, might be inevitable given the circumstances ((

 

[Dotta]

Well, having a mix, sadly, might be inevitable given the circumstances ((

Exactly!