Following Casey's directions

[LambChop]

I believe the person who is listed as owning the home on Hopespring's first name was Hernandez G. The other person was just a tenant and was found through phone records.

Mom's who kill their children dispose of them close to home. Kind of errie to hear KC say on the tape. "She's close to home". jmo

 

[nums24]

As far as checking places familiar to us and places I told Mom about....I still wonder about that, too. The first part seems like she's referring to the stories she'd told Cindy during the "missing weeks", i.e. the story about Hard Rock Cafe, Z being in the car accident, the stuff about her and JH maybe wanting to be a family and going up to JAX etc. Not as close to home as the houses at the end of the street but....

I think it's really interesting to reconsider the places she was telling LE to look too, as crazy as they seem. For example, the places she mentioned dropping Caylee off with Z in the past. She mentioned they were in a house at one time in Andover Lakes.....where else did she mention. A house near Conway and Michigan....wait, that's where Sawgrass is actually located isn't it? She mentioned an apartment in the building across from JP's place.... I keep wondering, were these all just crazy delusions or hallucinations or confusion of hers, or was she trying to get them to look at particular places but was afraid to come out with it? Also the way she went on about checking for video of people coming through the turnstiles at Universal, thinking Z would have brought Caylee through the turnstiles there, etc.

BBM - That's probably what she was hoping for, LE spending hours/days reviewing theme park tape, 31 days worth!

 

[gamom]

Personally I think if Casey were the killer that would be the last place she would dump a body, she was all over town, if she were the killer why not dump the body anywhere else. Everyplace you drive in Orlando there are overgrown areas and swamps and ponds where you could throw a bag over a fence or into trees or water, places not near houses, places NO ONE would come across it. Instead of right by neighborhood fences right there in her own neighborhood. Absolutely no need to dump the body in that area. Even if she'd put it there in an intoxicated state or some kind of panic or hurry, I think surely she would have moved it from there soon after to a better y location. Many other things that make me think she may not have been the one who dumped the body, but won't get into those here of course.
Still, I have always continued to wonder about the name-coincidence having to do with the last two houses, etc. Why would she tell a story about someone with these particular same names babysitting Caylee? etc. It still makes me wonder. Also, why KMTC would jump to the conclusion at such an early time that Caylee might be deceased and her body in that location, called LE up to pointedly tell them as much. IIRC, didn't DC tell someone that a young woman from the neighborhood had told him she'd seen Casey's vehicle backed up in that area, I always wondered if KMTC was the young woman he was referring to who had told him that?

Why would she leave Caylee by the house? Why would she wait 31 days to report her missing? Why would she lie about having a job for years? Why would she make up a Nanny? Why would she steal gas cans from home instead of buying one with the stolen checks? Why would she steal from friends and family? Why would she lie to CA about where Caylee was when she picked her up? Why was she hiding from CA? Why did she lie to LE who were helping her find her missing child? Why did she want Tony's number instead of helping her parents find Caylee? Why did she allow Caylee to spend a month with a babysitter? Why would she kill Caylee? Why would she say Lee and George molested her? Why would she deny her parents to visit her in jail?

The list goes on and on. You are trying to apply sane reasoning for actions of a insane person. Maybe she is not insane, but she is definitely not acting like a sane mother of a missing child would. Just my opinion.

 

[gamom]

As far as checking places familiar to us and places I told Mom about....I still wonder about that, too. The first part seems like she's referring to the stories she'd told Cindy during the "missing weeks", i.e. the story about Hard Rock Cafe, Z being in the car accident, the stuff about her and JH maybe wanting to be a family and going up to JAX etc. Not as close to home as the houses at the end of the street but....

I think it's really interesting to reconsider the places she was telling LE to look too, as crazy as they seem. For example, the places she mentioned dropping Caylee off with Z in the past. She mentioned they were in a house at one time in Andover Lakes.....where else did she mention. A house near Conway and Michigan....wait, that's where Sawgrass is actually located isn't it? She mentioned an apartment in the building across from JP's place.... I keep wondering, were these all just crazy delusions or hallucinations or confusion of hers, or was she trying to get them to look at particular places but was afraid to come out with it? Also the way she went on about checking for video of people coming through the turnstiles at Universal, thinking Z would have brought Caylee through the turnstiles there, etc.

Lets just say you right and she was afraid to tell LE for whatever reason. Perhaps she felt Caylee would be harmed? Ok. BUT if that were true, the moment they found Caylee she would want to tell the truth right? Why would she risk the DP to protect someone who killed her child? What mother would do that?

hmmm, maybe a mother that would lose more by telling the truth. A guilty mother.

Lets not forget what JB said "It does KC no good to tell where Caylee is"...really? It makes much more sense to spend the rest of your life in jail or worse getting the DP.

 

[gamom]

She also could have dumped the body so close to home to A) Keep tabs on if it was found. B)To mourn/talk to her C)like many other killers, had a need to return to the crime scene D)she was rushed and at the time this seemed like a good hiding place. Perhaps she planned to move the body later (after dark) and just got side tracked during her partying/blockbuster trips.

 

[nyvictoria]

She also could have dumped the body so close to home to A) Keep tabs on if it was found. B)To mourn/talk to her C)like many other killers, had a need to return to the crime scene D)she was rushed and at the time this seemed like a good hiding place. Perhaps she planned to move the body later (after dark) and just got side tracked during her partying/blockbuster trips.

bbm
I think she was planning to move the body but as you said was having too good a time to take a break for the relocation. Then the car got towed and she was SOL.

 

[LambChop]

bbm
I think she was planning to move the body but as you said was having too good a time to take a break for the relocation. Then the car got towed and she was SOL.

Plus Hurricane Fay came rolling in.

 

[Searchfortruth]

She also could have dumped the body so close to home to A) Keep tabs on if it was found. B)To mourn/talk to her C)like many other killers, had a need to return to the crime scene D)she was rushed and at the time this seemed like a good hiding place. Perhaps she planned to move the body later (after dark) and just got side tracked during her partying/blockbuster trips.

I believe she left Caylee so close to home, also because it was a familiar place to her. She knew how much foot traffic there would be through the area in the summer months (kids out of school). Even when the kids are in school, I doubt they venture that far into those thick woods. Most murderers leave the bodies of their victims in familar places. If you think about hiding something you don't want anyone to find, you are going to pick a place you are familar with. With an unfamilar place there are too many unknowns.

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

Perhaps more revealing than the differences in why they kill their offspring are the differences between how fathers and mothers do so. For one thing, parental murderers tend to be highly physical. According to a 1988 survey done by the U.S. Justice Department, while 61 percent of all murder defendants used a gun in 1988, only 20 percent of the parents who killed their children used one. Children were drowned and shaken, beaten, poisoned, stabbed, and suffocated. These methods betray a certain "craziness" in both genders—they betray an intense passion and a lack of planning. But a study by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children shows that fathers are far more violent. And mothers frequently dispose of the corpses in what researchers call a "womblike" fashion. Bodies are swaddled, submerged in water, or wrapped in plastic. Moreover, the NCMEC study showed that while the victims of maternal killings are almost always found either in or close to the home, fathers will, on average, dispose of the bodies hundreds of miles away. All these behaviors suggest that women associate these murders with themselves, their homes, and their bodies.
http://bbs.slate.com/id/2063086/

Seems ICA fits right into the hows of maternal filicide. Seems it's just a normal response, no forethought, no big plan....JMHO

from the link provided above...

Researchers, building on the work of Phillip Resnick, have shown that women tend to kill their own offspring for one of several reasons: because the child is unwanted; out of mercy; as a result of some mental illness in the mother; in retaliation against a spouse; as a result of abuse. Frequent themes are that they themselves deserved to be punished, that killing the children would be an altruistic or loving act, or that children need to be "erased" in order to save or preserve a relationship. Contrast this with the reasons men kill their children: Most frequently—like Garcia or Soltys—they kill because they feel they have lost control over their finances, or their families, or the relationship, or out of revenge for a perceived slight or infidelity. The consistent idea is that women usually kill their children either because they are angry at themselves or because they want to destroy that which they created, whereas more often than not, men kill their children to get back at a woman—to take away what she most cherishes.

Justice for Caylee

 

[LambChop]

Seems ICA fits right into the hows of maternal filicide. Seems it's just a normal response, no forethought, no big plan....JMHO

from the link provided above...



Justice for Caylee

Another issue which will be hard for defense to get past if they try to make a connection between KC and RK is what purpose would have been served by RK placing the body in that exact spot. What would be his motive? Seems to me trying to use RK would make it all seem too far fetched. Too many holes when maternal filicide fits perfect taking into consideration all the other factors pointing to KC......

 

[Just Jayla]

I know a lot of people think Casey is not that smart, but you dont have to be a genius to kill someone, and speaking of geniuses Einsten was one of the smartest men alive and he tie his own shoes, and no I'm not saying KC is a genius, I'm just saying it doesn't take a genius and even geniuses can be limited with simple tasks such as disposing of a body, but I have often wondered if KC wanted to get caught. Maybe this is a game to her, I had a thread about that a while back.

Here is my insight into KC's wits: She was playing a game of roulette with her mom-She felt assured enough that her mom would ultimately not test her, and in many ways she was right. It's not so much that KC had thought out how things would unfold when the police were called in, rather I think she believed from past experience that she could pull one over CA's eyes. She continues to be quite clever in making sure mama CA stays on the dark side, emotional games and all.
This is why KC dislikes GA, he challenges her. He tries to ferret out her lies. He rocks the boat in their house. She is also smart to try to take him down a peg (molestation accusations).

 

[Solace]

Butterfly - I never thought Caylee was supposed to "stay lost".

KC had a situation. A stench in her car that would not quit, even after she got rid her small "problem". She dumped the car in a public lot, on the business side of the street, the car was obviously supposed to disappear - She had dumped Caylee just feet from the road, along a street that gets regular foot traffic, 9 mos a year. Had she left Caylee a month earlier, some little kid with a lot of moxie, would have investigated the odor.

Maybe she didn't realize the odor coming from the side of the road would dissipate, be completely gone (and under water) before school started again. If she tossed the bag from the side of the road, as was theorized, there was no way she could have anticipated that spot filling in with water that lasted for 6 months!

She never thought she would have to come up with a real person, with a real phone number and a real address - it was a private number, lots of people have them (not so much babysitters). She never realized her nonexistent job was going to be questioned.

KC's behavior was totally consistent with a certain type of single, young mom, on vacation - the kid was having a good time with the nanny. Suddenly her baby turns up, deceased and the trusted babysitter/friend is missing! "Oh no! Poor KC, she lost her friend and child in a cruel twist of a who done it." But she was prepared to be strong and to go on with her life, like Caylee would have wanted.

Once it was announced Caylee was missing, there were no tears, no fear - When she realized it made her look bad, to have given her child to a questionable person, suddenly Caylee was taken by force as KC and Caylee played in the park. Then she spent a month looking for Caylee under barstools - she continued with the ridiculous story, that even she would have been hard pressed to believe. Because her original thoughts on the way it was going to go down never happened. CA is not able to change modes. She reminds me very much of a Borderline Personality - but not particularly smart.

I believe the reason she changed her story to the Blanchard Park story was because Yuri Melich tells her at Universal - do you think we're stupid, we have checked everything out and the cameras DO NOT SHOW YOU at the apartment complex with Caylee - so what happened to Caylee? Lunkhead KC realized she had to change it so Blanchard. But if you read the interviews the prosecutors are very interested in how that story started and WHO started it - it is not clear who started it - Lee says KC told him when she got out - but also that Leonard Padilla knew about it and so did Cindy. Any insight on this is appreciated.

I think KC figured she could lie about anything to her parents and treat them just like garbage. She was stealing for years and lying for years and Cindy was saying okay with me - you say you are at work - you are at work. Its incredible. You say Zanny took the baby, Zanny took the baby. Let me think about who Zanny is - maybe Ricardo or Amy. This is why Cindy comes across as a horror story. No one likes this woman.

So KC killed the baby and decided I can lie my way out of this and just say someone kidnapped the baby. She probably made the story up the evening Lee asked her about it - true to her sociopathic mo. She never thinks beyond ten minutes ahead.

I think the neighbor is telling the truth about hearing the arguments (albeit he says he is not sure what weekend), and the cursing at Cindy in the yard - how embarrassing - and to let her do that to you. Incredible.

I think KC decided the night before that she was getting rid of Caylee because before she left she told George they may not return that night. I think she HATED, HATED CINDY for the attention she gave Caylee and rather than leave her with Cindy, she killed her and also she wanted to be with Tony (who said he told her he did not want girls for children). I think it was jealousy and wanting to get back at Cindy the worst way she could and getting rid of the thorn in her side - Caylee.

 

[seagull65]

Maybe she didn't realize the odor coming from the side of the road would dissipate, be completely gone (and under water) before school started again. If she tossed the bag from the side of the road, as was theorized, there was no way she could have anticipated that spot filling in with water that lasted for 6 months!

snipped by me (justto clarify on the one small part about the water, the water expert Dr. Jawitz calculated that Area A, the primary remains area where skull etc were, only had up to 6 inches of water during something like a ten-day or two week period in August, 2008 IIRC.) But I hear ya in the rest of your post.

 

[seagull65]

I believe the person who is listed as owning the home on Hopespring's first name was Hernandez G. The other person was just a tenant and was found through phone records.

Mom's who kill their children dispose of them close to home. Kind of errie to hear KC say on the tape. "She's close to home". jmo

The owner of the last house on Hopespring was Fredesvind Gz, and the name Z came up on the second to last house on Hopespring, as part of the "household" of people with a different surname than hers. These are the two houses that back up to the remains site. The end one has the wooden fence around the back yard, the next one may have chainlink IIRC.

I don't have the links at my fingertips, I'll try to put them in here for those who want to look. The county property tax website is good to see owners on the addresses, and whitepages.com (reverse look up with the addresses) is also good (or was).

 

[seagull65]

Lower left part of town sounds like Disney area. Near the mall....well Disney is further "lower left" than Mall at Millennia but near one or two outlet malls.
I guess Universal is probably closer to Malls at Millennia (than Disney) (?), and it is the "left" part of town on a map....

 

[ynotdivein]

Maybe I'm under-thinking this, but I always figured "follow my directions to a T" just referred to the "T" where Hopespring runs into Suburban. :waitasec:

 

[seagull65]

Thanks for that picture. You can really see the area clearly. Some of our posters have done research on the pings. I think I remember that someone said that KC's phone pings for the 15th, night of the reported "argument", were around the home even though it was reported KC left in a huff. If she went down to that spot to text Tony and Caylee was upset could KC have lost it and killed her at that point. With all the lying from this family I no longer believe GA saw them last on the 16th.

Just throwing this out. What if KC wanted to call Tony and Caylee is in the back crying for her grandmother and the more KC yelled the louder Caylee got. How do you shut up a child when you want to make a call to a bf who isn't too crazy about the fact that you have a child in the first place. Do you let her cry while you are trying to talk and take a chance on losing a relationship or would you attempt to stop her from crying..... jmo

of course there are a lot of theories that she is the killer and might have been at the remains site at this or that time, but IIRC as far as pings there aren't any specific pings for the remains site, the two towers that serve the remains site area are the same towers that serve her parents' home and Lee's home. So any pings that we're theorizing could be her at the remains site could just be her at her parents' house or Lee's house, or driving for any purpose near her parents' house or Lee's house, i.e. just driving in or out of her neighborhood normally. As far as I understand it, please correct me if I'm wrong though, ping experts

 

[seagull65]

Maybe I'm under-thinking this, but I always figured "follow my directions to a T" just referred to the "T" where Hopespring runs into Suburban. :waitasec:

I thought so too, ynotdivein. Just the T in the road. At least it could refer to that.

though that's true as some of you guys have posted that she could have just told Lee straight out at home if she'd wanted to tell him where the remains were. Unless, she just hadn't really thought she would be arrested so quickly or hadn't worked up the nerve to tell him until after her arrest, so had to use code-talk once she was in jail. But then she was released on bond, right... (I'm trying to remember the sequence now, it's been so long.) So if she'd wanted anyone to move the remains, she could have told them then. The remains weren't moved away from that location. Maybe she was cluing him in about things/people to investigate? i.e. check out those houses at the T

 

[seagull65]

thanks for the thread, I am so glad to return to this topic and hear your all's ideas, it gets my brain going. I mean face it, however you look at it, it is a pretty freaky coincidence that she said Caylee was with someone by that name (she didn't indicate at the time she thought Caylee would have been killed, by all appearances she still thought Caylee was alive), and then the body is finally found behind the houses of people with those names. I sure hope LE took the dogs/forensics in those houses etc.

 

[kaRN]

As far as checking places familiar to us and places I told Mom about....I still wonder about that, too. The first part seems like she's referring to the stories she'd told Cindy during the "missing weeks", i.e. the story about Hard Rock Cafe, Z being in the car accident, the stuff about her and JH maybe wanting to be a family and going up to JAX etc. Not as close to home as the houses at the end of the street but....

I think it's really interesting to reconsider the places she was telling LE to look too, as crazy as they seem. For example, the places she mentioned dropping Caylee off with Z in the past. She mentioned they were in a house at one time in Andover Lakes.....where else did she mention. A house near Conway and Michigan....wait, that's where Sawgrass is actually located isn't it? She mentioned an apartment in the building across from JP's place.... I keep wondering, were these all just crazy delusions or hallucinations or confusion of hers, or was she trying to get them to look at particular places but was afraid to come out with it? Also the way she went on about checking for video of people coming through the turnstiles at Universal, thinking Z would have brought Caylee through the turnstiles there, etc.

Innocent people who care one iota about their missing 2 year olds don't play these games. She was just picking off places she could describe because she'd been there once. Like Lee said, Casey lied for no reason and that's what she was doing. The truth and ICA are strangers. The truth would get her the DP and even she is bright enough to know that.