For Those Who Do Think Avery was Framed & Evidence Planted - Discuss

[missy1974]

Hello all!!

I don't think these two cases are related, they have arrested 2 individuals from the Minnesota area.

http://fox6now.com/2016/05/10/one-charged-one-sought-in-february-killing-in-manitowoc/

I doubt it's related too...... with that said.... putting on my conspiracy hat for a moment.... there are some very odd coincidences with this guy and it was being talked about at length on reddit, then they arrest these 2 guys lol It was all very strange.

 

[missy1974]

for the record, IMO SA is guility. With that said, if I am wrong~~ I think if there is any possible person who could be guilty of planting evidence, this is the man.

At first I thought it would have been the 3... Colborn, Lenk, Remiker. But Remiker wasn't there after Nov 6th, I think his wife had a baby and he had the week off. Then again.... he had lots of time lol

Someone went through the trouble of putting the CASO sign in logs into a spreadsheet if anyone is interested...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bod62h63t6na11i/CASO_CRIME_SCENE_LOG v1.61.xlsx?dl=0

 

[missy1974]

IDK, sounds to me like the juror who claimed to have a family crisis at home was just trying to get out of jury duty to me. I don't buy the story. I also don't buy the old guy saying "he's fking guilty" doesn't seem to fit the character, but then again I could be wrong.

I don't think he was trying to get out of jury duty, he was there for weeks already, and this was the first day of deliberations, first night away from his family. I think there is more to the story, will be interesting if KZ has spoken to other jurors and see if some of things he has said are backed by others.

IMO the biggest issue was that Pagel was involved in all of this. The Sheriff of Calumet County, who oversaw this investigation, and should not have been anywhere near any of these jurors, period. But he was, and he facilitated a conversation with the judge and the juror while he stood close by. No one, not the judge or Pagel, even verified that there was an accident or anything else going on with the step-daughter. I always thought it was verified, or that is what the transcripts said, I will have to go back and read them later today.

ETA: It should also be mentioned that the first night of deliberations and the jurors were having dinner at a restaurant..... Pagel showed up and told them they could order alcohol. Just another example of him being somewhere he shouldn't have been. IMO

btw.... :wave: BCA!

 

[BigCityAccountant]

At first I thought it would have been the 3... Colborn, Lenk, Remiker. But Remiker wasn't there after Nov 6th, I think his wife had a baby and he had the week off. Then again.... he had lots of time lol

Someone went through the trouble of putting the CASO sign in logs into a spreadsheet if anyone is interested...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bod62h63t6na11i/CASO_CRIME_SCENE_LOG v1.61.xlsx?dl=0

I wondered if Remiker and SA went to school together, they look to be about the same age. Does anyone know? Don't feel like digging for it right now. For the last week, I have been having trouble with my contacts...too much computer viewing I guess...LOL

 

[BigCityAccountant]

I don't think he was trying to get out of jury duty, he was there for weeks already, and this was the first day of deliberations, first night away from his family. I think there is more to the story, will be interesting if KZ has spoken to other jurors and see if some of things he has said are backed by others.

IMO the biggest issue was that Pagel was involved in all of this. The Sheriff of Calumet County, who oversaw this investigation, and should not have been anywhere near any of these jurors, period. But he was, and he facilitated a conversation with the judge and the juror while he stood close by. No one, not the judge or Pagel, even verified that there was an accident or anything else going on with the step-daughter. I always thought it was verified, or that is what the transcripts said, I will have to go back and read them later today.

btw.... :wave: BCA!

I remember reading in the transcripts that it turned out not to be true. (I believe it was the transcripts..LOL...I have read soo much!) I agree Pagel should not have been anywhere near them at all~~But wouldn't the bailiff be from CASO too?

Oh and Hello too! :wave:

 

[missy1974]

I wondered if Remiker and SA went to school together, they look to be about the same age. Does anyone know? Don't feel like digging for it right now. For the last week, I have been having trouble with my contacts...too much computer viewing I guess...LOL

I'm not sure and I'm sure at this point someone would have dug that up haha

 

[missy1974]

I remember reading in the transcripts that it turned out not to be true. (I believe it was the transcripts..LOL...I have read soo much!) I agree Pagel should not have been anywhere near them at all~~But wouldn't the bailiff be from CASO too?

Oh and Hello too! :wave:

I'm not sure what department the bailiff's would be a part of, but I doubt they had a direct link to the investigation like Pagel did. I did an edit on my post but you were too quick for me LOL But it was also said that Pagel showed up while they were having dinner the first night of deliberations.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

I'm not sure what department the bailiff's would be a part of, but I doubt they had a direct link to the investigation like Pagel did. I did an edit on my post but you were too quick for me LOL But it was also said that Pagel showed up while they were having dinner the first night of deliberations.

Knowing the area, there are not that may places to have dinner (especially nice places). I actually know the hotel and it is one of the nicest places in Manitowoc to have dinner. LOL~~ I actually stayed at that hotel. Lighthouse Inn had a gas smell and I was pregnant, so I opted to stay at the Best Western...LOL At lot of boaters and yachters go there to have dinner. I could see Pagel going there for dinner awaiting a decision~~after all his department was invested in this case.

Now with that being said~~`I don't think he should have had contact with the juror. I think he should have left it up to the bailiff to handle the situation.

 

[missy1974]

Knowing the area, there are not that may places to have dinner (especially nice places). I actually know the hotel and it is one of the nicest places in Manitowoc to have dinner. LOL~~ I actually stayed at that hotel. Lighthouse Inn had a gas smell and I was pregnant, so I opted to stay at the Best Western...LOL At lot of boaters and yachters go there to have dinner. I could see Pagel going there for dinner awaiting a decision~~after all his department was invested in this case.

Now with that being said~~`I don't think he should have had contact with the juror. I think he should have left it up to the bailiff to handle the situation.

I think they were in Calumet County. They were at Seven Angels restaurant, Mahler testified that they were taken there by bus, and then to the hotel by bus. I don't know what hotel, and I don't know if it's referenced in the doc's (I don't recall reading what hotel)

Mahler tells the patrolman outside his room he needs to speak with the bailiff, he speaks to the bailiff, then the bailiff calls Pagel and not the judge? Then when the judge calls Strang/Buting, he fails to tell them anything about Pagel being the "middle man", which according to Buting in testimony would have triggered an immediate motion for mistrial. (Buting testified in a post trial hearing)

Here is a link to the full pre/post trial motions. http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...Trial-Motion-Hearing-Transcripts-combined.pdf

I searched Seven Angels, Mahler and I was able to find the "story"

 

[BigCityAccountant]

I think they were in Calumet County. They were at Seven Angels restaurant, Mahler testified that they were taken there by bus, and then to the hotel by bus. I don't know what hotel, and I don't know if it's referenced in the doc's (I don't recall reading what hotel)

Mahler tells the patrolman outside his room he needs to speak with the bailiff, he speaks to the bailiff, then the bailiff calls Pagel and not the judge? Then when the judge calls Strang/Buting, he fails to tell them anything about Pagel being the "middle man", which according to Buting in testimony would have triggered an immediate motion for mistrial. (Buting testified in a post trial hearing)

Here is a link to the full pre/post trial motions. http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...Trial-Motion-Hearing-Transcripts-combined.pdf

I searched Seven Angels, Mahler and I was able to find the "story"

Oh, I thought I read they stayed at the Best Western next to the Maritime Museum?

http://www.yelp.com/biz/best-western-lakefront-hotel-manitowoc

 

[missy1974]

Oh, I thought I read they stayed at the Best Western next to the Maritime Museum?

http://www.yelp.com/biz/best-western-lakefront-hotel-manitowoc

Q. Where did the jurors stay while you were sequestered?
A. The Best Western in Chilton.

Not that it really matters lol but it was Chilton (according to Mahler's testimony)

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Q. Where did the jurors stay while you were sequestered?
A. The Best Western in Chilton.

Not that it really matters lol but it was Chilton (according to Mahler's testimony)

...and now that you mentioned Mahler, it appears he is in a band called Ricky Rayband and the Rays. An interesting read on Wisconsin Circuit Court as well. I wonder if money came into play at anytime. I still think he was just trying to get out of jury duty.

https://wcca.wicourts.gov/index.xsl;jsessionid=62DADD99848EFA6CD49B542FE175F02E.render6

 

[missy1974]

ok.... so, Barb posted on the family facebook page, and it's since been deleted, or I can't find it! I saw it this afternoon, was going to screenshot it and got busy, came back and I'm glad I took a snippit before I refreshed fb because it would have been gone. Then I wasn't sure I wanted to post it lol But here goes....



I have a few thoughts about her comment. First, what do you mean they didn't have a choice? Second, the prosecution (aka Kratz), told them what to say? really? because not only are you implicating Kratz in wrongdoing, you are also implicating ST and BD with lying and committing perjury, right? If any of this is true, they best have a good reason for "not having a choice". All that being said.... Barb was picked up that day and later charged with possession, was there more to this? Maybe... ? Because it's gone now, I'm sure someone (KZ?), may have told her to remove it. I didn't even read the comments under the post, so I have no idea if she had more to say, or maybe people told her to delete it.

Anyway..... JMO and all. I'm on the fence about Barb to be honest. Not that I think she had anything to do with Teresa's murder, I just wonder about her, when SA at some point has to tell her she is a terrible mother... I mean,Steve was such a shining example and he is critical of her parenting? Just how bad was it? Anyway, again JMO

 

[Jaiddie]

ok.... so, Barb posted on the family facebook page, and it's since been deleted, or I can't find it! I saw it this afternoon, was going to screenshot it and got busy, came back and I'm glad I took a snippit before I refreshed fb because it would have been gone. Then I wasn't sure I wanted to post it lol But here goes....

I have a few thoughts about her comment. First, what do you mean they didn't have a choice? Second, the prosecution (aka Kratz), told them what to say? really? because not only are you implicating Kratz in wrongdoing, you are also implicating ST and BD with lying and committing perjury, right? If any of this is true, they best have a good reason for "not having a choice". All that being said.... Barb was picked up that day and later charged with possession, was there more to this? Maybe... ? Because it's gone now, I'm sure someone (KZ?), may have told her to remove it. I didn't even read the comments under the post, so I have no idea if she had more to say, or maybe people told her to delete it.

Anyway..... JMO and all. I'm on the fence about Barb to be honest. Not that I think she had anything to do with Teresa's murder, I just wonder about her, when SA at some point has to tell her she is a terrible mother... I mean,Steve was such a shining example and he is critical of her parenting? Just how bad was it? Anyway, again JMO

Thanks for bringing this over here, missy! I thought about it earlier, but I am still kinda new, so I didn't know if it would be allowed since it was from a facebook group. I also had all of the same thoughts you did, lol. From the way it is sounding, I think Barb may have had a deal with the prosecution to make it easier to take SA down, but Brendan ended up getting waaaay more than she bargained for out of the deal. This would make her outburst after Brendan's verdict make much more sense. She didn't come across to me like a heartbroken mother who was devastated that her son was going away, but more like a very ANGRY one who had been tricked. This is all JMHO, of course.

 

[missy1974]

Thanks for bringing this over here, missy! I thought about it earlier, but I am still kinda new, so I didn't know if it would be allowed since it was from a facebook group. I also had all of the same thoughts you did, lol. From the way it is sounding, I think Barb may have had a deal with the prosecution to make it easier to take SA down, but Brendan ended up getting waaaay more than she bargained for out of the deal. This would make her outburst after Brendan's verdict make much more sense. She didn't come across to me like a heartbroken mother who was devastated that her son was going away, but more like a very ANGRY one who had been tricked. This is all JMHO, of course.

Ya know... I almost feel bad for not liking her lol Something just seems off with her. If this is the case... or if she even believes this is the case, that ST and Bobby said what the prosecution told them too, and they did..... how can she live with them knowing that BD is sitting in jail, and they may have played a part in that? Were they all manipulated by LE/prosecution? Thennnnn add to this, Kayla, the cousin who didn't say what the prosecution wanted her too on the stand, her going back on what she was "supposed" to say on the stand, it actually lends some credibility to them maybe lying on the stand, was she the only one that just couldn't do it?

It's one thing to lie to put SA in jail, but putting BD in jail? I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Ya know... I almost feel bad for not liking her lol Something just seems off with her. If this is the case... or if she even believes this is the case, that ST and Bobby said what the prosecution told them too, and they did..... how can she live with them knowing that BD is sitting in jail, and they may have played a part in that? Were they all manipulated by LE/prosecution? Thennnnn add to this, Kayla, the cousin who didn't say what the prosecution wanted her too on the stand, her going back on what she was "supposed" to say on the stand, it actually lends some credibility to them maybe lying on the stand, was she the only one that just couldn't do it?

It's one thing to lie to put SA in jail, but putting BD in jail? I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

Ok, sorry guys I have to be suspicious of the timing of the claim. I think it is entirely possible that KZ told her to post that on the FB page and then delete it to put doubt in peoples heads. In other words, planned like she was told to remove it after posting a heartfelt response. I hope that makes sense. If it had come out way back when in 05, even 09~~I might buy it~~ but I just think the timing of it doesn't seem right that she states that now. Seems planned to me. I'm highly suspicious.

 

[Jaiddie]

Ok, sorry guys I have to be suspicious of the timing of the claim. I think it is entirely possible that KZ told her to post that on the FB page and then delete it to put doubt in peoples heads. In other words, planned like she was told to remove it after posting a heartfelt response. I hope that makes sense. If it had come out way back when in 05, even 09~~I might buy it~~ but I just think the timing of it doesn't seem right that she states that now. Seems planned to me. I'm highly suspicious.

The statement was made in response to people speculating about ST and BoD involvement as the possible murderers of TH in a thread on the family page. The reason of the timing is because there are so many theories about their involvement (her husband and son) presently because of MaM being aired. Much of the information that is public NOW, wasn't known by anyone in '05, '06, etc..., so Barb did not have to be confronted with speculation from strangers so dramatically about her family (other than her brother and youngest son whom have had to pay the price for 10 years). I have a sneaking suspicion that you are correct in that she may have had KZ's blessing on the post, then deletion, however, but that is not to say it is not true. If it IS true, it makes some things make much more sense about those proceedings, JMO.

 

[missy1974]

Ok, sorry guys I have to be suspicious of the timing of the claim. I think it is entirely possible that KZ told her to post that on the FB page and then delete it to put doubt in peoples heads. In other words, planned like she was told to remove it after posting a heartfelt response. I hope that makes sense. If it had come out way back when in 05, even 09~~I might buy it~~ but I just think the timing of it doesn't seem right that she states that now. Seems planned to me. I'm highly suspicious.

So I did some more reading last night. And like Jaiddie said in her post, it was more as a response to what people were saying on another post on the facebook page, so it wasn't just a random post. And in Barb's defense.... this isn't the first time I have read this, she had posted something similar on the other fb page that is now no longer there, and I have read posts by Kayla (the cousin) about being manipulated by investigators. (they are probably posted somewhere on these threads, but I have no idea if I could find them now lol)

But I will say... I'm on the fence about Barb, what she knew, when she knew it, etc. After doing some reading, I don't know where it came from, but it's rumoured that Barb and her mom, Dolores, were at odds for awhile after these trials. Was Barb manipulated into thinking SA would go down and BD wouldn't? or some sort of deal for her or ST or Bobby? Barb was picked up on November 5th and later charged with possession. Some people have 100% sympathy for her..... I'm at about 25% sympathy LOL

As for KZ and Barb's post.... according to the family KZ asked them not to comment at all about the case. I have a feeling that KZ asked her to delete the post or Barb came to her senses (probably with help lol) JMO

 

[Justiceseeker35]

The statement was made in response to people speculating about ST and BoD involvement as the possible murderers of TH in a thread on the family page. The reason of the timing is because there are so many theories about their involvement (her husband and son) presently because of MaM being aired. Much of the information that is public NOW, wasn't known by anyone in '05, '06, etc..., so Barb did not have to be confronted with speculation from strangers so dramatically about her family (other than her brother and youngest son whom have had to pay the price for 10 years). I have a sneaking suspicion that you are correct in that she may have had KZ's blessing on the post, then deletion, however, but that is not to say it is not true. If it IS true, it makes some things make much more sense about those proceedings, JMO.

I feel terrible for BT I really do. But LE did a horrific thing to her family and I think this call for the truth means that "sleuthers and the like" have to run through all possible scenarios in order to puzzle out the truth. I think the public has to shift from the past decade of absolute guilt (SA and BD guilty)- to (SA probable guilty/BD innocent) to someone else did it and planted evidence -to LE planted all the evidence the DA (KK) was lying and TH wasn't even murdered on the property. That shift takes a pain staking amount of time. MaM came out and sort of invited the public to take a look at the case. I think in the end BD/ST theory will hopefully have been just a painful and small foot note because the real killer will be locked away and SA/BD will be released.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

The statement was made in response to people speculating about ST and BoD involvement as the possible murderers of TH in a thread on the family page. The reason of the timing is because there are so many theories about their involvement (her husband and son) presently because of MaM being aired. Much of the information that is public NOW, wasn't known by anyone in '05, '06, etc..., so Barb did not have to be confronted with speculation from strangers so dramatically about her family (other than her brother and youngest son whom have had to pay the price for 10 years). I have a sneaking suspicion that you are correct in that she may have had KZ's blessing on the post, then deletion, however, but that is not to say it is not true. If it IS true, it makes some things make much more sense about those proceedings, JMO.

I guess if it was me, I'd be ranting and raving from day 1 that they were telling me what to say and do, I wouldn't wait 10 years to do so~~but that's just me. I would have every reporter from GB at my house~~and with the high profile of the case~~they would have ate that up! If it was my kid in jail like that~~you better believe I'd be making a terrible scene~~especially after knowing they set my brother up~~I'd also be moving to a different county~~~LOL. That's what makes me skeptical.