Forensic linguistics, weapon of the JIDI knight

[Holdontoyourhat]

Except it's NOT in conflict with the autopsy report, HOTYH; directly or indirectly.

But you interest me. I'm suddenly very curious as to what makes you say that it is. Can you help me out?.

NP.

Neck ligature + no neck petechia = staging
Neck ligature + neck petechia = actual strangulation

Autopsy report: neck ligature, neck petechia, asphyxia

It doesn't get any simpler than that. It really doesn't.

--------------------------------------------------

RDI: No matter if there was petechia or not, it was still staging. This seems unresponsive to evidence, not unlike the DNA. No matter if there is unknown male DNA prevalent at the crime scene its still RDI.

Clearly it would've been better for the staging argument if there was no petechia but there was.

RDI circumvents the obvious by claiming that someone who was merely placing a prop inadvertantly caused a living person to hemorrhage and asphyxiate (autopsy report).

At some point people will catch on that RDI is systematically circumventing the prima facie evidence of this murder: That JBR was brutally murdered by strangulation and headbash, exactly as described in the autopsy report.

 

[BBB167893]

NP.

Neck ligature + no neck petechia = staging
Neck ligature + neck petechia = actual strangulation

Autopsy report: neck ligature, neck petechia, asphyxia

I kind of figured that's where you were headed.

RDI: No matter if there was petechia or not, it was still staging.

That's not quite it. Our argument takes a lot more into account than just that.

Clearly it would've been better for the staging argument if there was no petechia but there was.

As I see it, I've got what I need.

It would be better for your argument if there was any sort of evidence that JB actually struggled against her killer.

RDI circumvents the obvious by claiming that someone who was merely placing a prop inadvertantly caused a living person to hemorrhage and asphyxiate (autopsy report).

Yes, I AM claiming that. And it doesn't circumvent the obvious. It's what the evidence tell us happened. Don't kill the messenger.

At some point people will catch on that RDI is systematically circumventing the prima facie evidence of this murder: That JBR was brutally murdered by strangulation and headbash, exactly as described in the autopsy report.

No, I don't think they will. Because we don't need to circumvent anything. If anything, you've shown me just how badly you misunderstand RDI.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Yes, I AM claiming that. And it doesn't circumvent the obvious. It's what the evidence tell us happened. Don't kill the messenger.

Claim anything you want. It DOES circumvent prima faice. Its NOT what the evidence tells us. There is no viable message to even get excited over.

Most people believe JBR was strangled and headbashed, and this caused her death. Thats what the autopsy report says, thats what all the news is reporting. I don't sit on the courtroom steps so I have to read the news. I don't take in much from other sources esp. vested interest groups.

 

[BBB167893]

Claim anything you want.

I might give you the same advice.

It DOES circumvent prima facie.

Oh, really? The autopsy report listed no damage to the hyoid bone or the windpipe or the strap muscles of the neck. And the petechiae were limited, not the massive levels you seem to claim. No signs of a struggle, a perfectly circular mark around the neck. SO what exactly are you trying to say, HOTYH?

Its NOT what the evidence tells us.

There is no viable message to even get excited over.

Who's excited? And there certainly is a message, as relayed by Werner Spitz: Someone took a long time to stage strangulation and sexual assault after she was unconscious.

Most people believe JBR was strangled and headbashed, and this caused her death.

I do not believe I said otherwise. If I did, please show me where!

Thats what the autopsy report says, thats what all the news is reporting.

That's right.

I don't sit on the courtroom steps so I have to read the news.

Join the club.

I don't take in much from other sources

It shows.

esp. vested interest groups.

Okay, I'll bite: what is a "vested interest group?"

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Oh, really? The autopsy report listed no damage to the hyoid bone or the windpipe or the strap muscles of the neck. And the petechiae were limited, not the massive levels you seem to claim. No signs of a struggle, a perfectly circular mark around the neck. SO what exactly are you trying to say, HOTYH?"

It seems you are claiming that a living person cannot be ligature strangled without damaging the hyoid bone, windpipe, and strap muscles. Or, you are claiming that the coroner overlooked damage. I can't tell which.

I don't remember the coroner stating "hey, there's petechiae but a real live strangulation wouldn't look like this." So, SD this is your characterization, or that of another armchair expert who seem to be your only friends, right? C'mon how come you cant get Meyer or Beuf on your team? They wont echo ANY of this! Do you know why? Because its CR%$!

 

[BBB167893]

It seems you are claiming that a living person cannot be ligature strangled without damaging the hyoid bone, windpipe, and strap muscles. Or, you are claiming that the coroner overlooked damage. I can't tell which.

Well, it's certainly not the second, and as for the first, I'm not claiming THAT so much as this was referred to as a "gentle" strangulation. So what I'm asking is that how could anyone reasonably conclude that a living, conscious person would sit still while this was going on?

I don't remember the coroner stating "hey, there's petechiae but a real live strangulation wouldn't look like this."

I didn't say he did say that (at least not publically).

So, SD this is your characterization,

You're putting words in my mouth, HOTYH. Not like THAT's ever happened before.

or that of another armchair expert who seem to be your only friends, right?

1) What "armchair experts" would these be?

2) As for the bolded part, I have to ask, HOTYH: what the devil are you talking about? My only friends?

C'mon how come you cant get Meyer or Beuf on your team?

I'm not sure Meyer ISN'T on my team, HOTYH. After all, he wrote the things in the autopsy report I listed, and that's only the official report. As for Beuf, he's totally irrelevant to anything.

They wont echo ANY of this! Do you know why? Because its CR%$!

My, my. Are we full of ourselves today? I got you up against the wall, HOTYH. And you know it.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

My, my. Are we full of ourselves today? I got you up against the wall, HOTYH. And you know it.

SD: There was 'minor' petechial hemorrhaging, i.e. not the kind of petechial hemorrahing you'd expect from a full-blown strangulation.

Dr. Meyer: There was petechial hemorrhaging and abrasions in mulpile places both large and small on her neck at the exact location of the ligature furrow. Cause of death is asphyxia.

Reread the autopsy report and slow down this time, OK? Petechial hemorraging of all sizes are emphasized many many many times in the report. Seriously, it does seem like RDI is rationalizing the autopsy report. Dumbing down, changing what it really said.

Putting words in Dr. Meyer's mouth.

The autopsy report lists no fewer than 19 injuries and they include large abrasions on her neck with hemorrhaging. Man that was some authentic staging! I mean, to even have produced hemorrhaging on her eyelids!

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

And the petechiae were limited, not the massive levels you seem to claim. No signs of a struggle, a perfectly circular mark around the neck. SO what exactly are you trying to say, HOTYH?

This is false. It directly contradicts the autopsy report which explicitly states JBR had multiple abrasions with hemorraging both large and small, exactly at the ligature furrow on her neck. These are clear signs of struggle but I can certainly understand the 'oversight'. None so blind as those who will not see.

Many of the injuries listed on the autopsy report come from her neck.

 

[BBB167893]

SD: There was 'minor' petechial hemorrhaging, i.e. not the kind of petechial hemorrahing you'd expect from a full-blown strangulation.

That's right. Hey, HOTYH: don't take MY word for it. Ames is around here. Why don't you ASK her what a REAL strangulation would cause? I'm anxiously awaiting when you do!

Dr. Meyer: There was petechial hemorrhaging and abrasions in multiple places both large and small on her neck at the exact location of the ligature furrow. Cause of death is asphyxia.

That's your characterization. Even if it is factual, it changes nothing. There is NOTHING in the autopsy report that contradicts the idea that JB was strangled by someone who thought she was already dead. There was no movement of the cord up or down her neck; there was hair tied into the knots, which means it was made on her body and not in advance; there was only minor petechial hemorrhaging in her eyes and eyelids (which is primarily what I was talking about); no damage to the underlying muscles or the windpipe; no signs of any defensive wounding; no damage to the inside of the mouth or tongue--I'll "slow down" any time you want me to!

Reread the autopsy report and slow down this time, OK?

Very funny. I've lost count of how many times I've read it, HOTYH. I know a little something about that of which I speak. Werner Spitz, Tom Henry, Henry Lee, Ronald Wright (I presume that's who you meant by my "friends") are all on my side. As is Norm Early.

Petechial hemorraging of all sizes are emphasized many many many times in the report.

HOTYH, I'd EXPECT petechia at the site of a strangulation on someone. The problem here is you seem to be so focused on one tree you can't see the forest behind it!

Seriously, it does seem like RDI is rationalizing the autopsy report. Dumbing down, changing what it really said. Putting words in Dr. Meyer's mouth.

Slander and calumny, HOTYH. But I'm not mad.

The autopsy report lists no fewer than 19 injuries and they include large abrasions on her neck with hemorrhaging. Man that was some authentic staging! I mean, to even have produced hemorrhaging on her eyelids!

One is not exclusive to the other, HOTYH. Not by a DAMN sight. Again, you seem to be proceeding from the idea that if the person is still alive, it cannot be staging. Big mistake, IMO.

This is false.

Like hell.

It directly contradicts the autopsy report which explicitly states JBR had multiple abrasions with hemorraging both large and small, exactly at the ligature furrow on her neck.

And nowhere ELSE, hint hint.

These are clear signs of struggle

You're kidding, right?

but I can certainly understand the 'oversight'.

There's no "oversight" on this side, and I doubt very seriously you understand ANYTHING about my arguments. YOUR oversight, otoh, I can understand, given my background.

None so blind as those who will not see.

Boy, you took the words right out of my mouth!

Many of the injuries listed on the autopsy report come from her neck.

As is to be expected.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

And the petechiae were limited, not the massive levels you seem to claim.

; no signs of any defensive wounding.

Are we discussing the same case?

What would be a sign of defensive wounding in your opinion? Does resistance and movement against the ligature count?

Of course it does:



A deep ligature furrow encircles the entire neck. The width of the furrow varies from one-eighth of an inch to five/sixteenths of an inch and is horizontal in orientation, with little upward deviation. The skin of the anterior neck above and below the ligature furrow contains areas of petechial hemorrhage and abrasion encompassing an area measuring approximately 3x2 inches.

The ligature furrow crosses the anterior midline of the neck just below the laryngeal prominence, approximately at the level of the cricoid cartilage. It is almost completely horizontal with slight upward deviation from the horizontal towards the back of the neck. The midline of the furrow mark on the anterior neck is 8 inches below the top of the head. The midline of the furrow mark on the posterior neck is 6.75 inches below the top of the head. The area of abrasion and petechial hemorrhage of the skin of the anterior neck includes on the lower left neck, just to the left of the midline, a roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion which measures 1.5 inches in length with a maximum width of 0.75 inches. This roughly triangular shaped abrasion is obliquely oriented with the apex superior and lateral. The remainder of the abrasions and petechial hemorrhages of the skin above and below the anterior projection of the ligature furrow are nonpatterned, purple to rust colored, and present in the midline, right, and left areas of the anterior neck. The skin just above the ligature furrow along the right side of the neck contains petechial hemorrhage composed of multiple confluent very small petechial hemorrhages as well as several larger petechial hemorrhages measuring up to one-sixteenth and one-eighth of an inch in maximum dimension. Similar smaller petechial hemorrhages are present on the skin below the ligature furrow on the left lateral aspect of the neck.


--------------------------------

JBR's neck was a mess. It had plenty of abrasions and bleeding within the skin. The only way to generate abrasions like this is by struggle.

And the petechiae were limited, not the massive levels you seem to claim.

What are you talking about? And I mean that with sincere concern. What ARE you talking about?

; no signs of any defensive wounding.

A falsehood, plain and simple.

It was violent and intended to result in her death as evidenced by the knot:

"Wrapped around the neck with a double knot in the midline of the posterior neck is a length of white cord similar to that described as being tied around the right wrist."

There are no manual strangulation, garrote staging, or accidental EA death scenarios that would result in these injuries and the double knot. I wouldn't waste a nickel on them.

 

[BBB167893]

Are we discussing the same case?

I was about to ask you the same question! I OFTEN get that feeling when talking to IDIs!

What would be a sign of defensive wounding in your opinion?

I can name a couple of things: scratches on JB's neck--DEEP ones--from clawing at the cord (at least you haven't tried to claim THAT), severe upward or downward deviation of the cord mark, biting the he** out the inside of her mouth, etc.

Like I said, HOTYH: Ames is the person you want to talk to. She can help you.

Does resistance and movement against the ligature count?

Yes, it would. And it would help you if there had been any.

A deep ligature furrow encircles the entire neck. The width of the furrow varies from one-eighth of an inch to five/sixteenths of an inch and is horizontal in orientation, with little upward deviation.

Isn't that what I said?

The skin of the anterior neck above and below the ligature furrow contains areas of petechial hemorrhage and abrasion encompassing an area measuring approximately 3x2 inches.

I've read it, HOTYH. I've seen the photos, too, ghastly as they were. I seem to remember that JB was found with a gold chain around her neck that was caught up in the cord. That's what most likely caused the "fan" shaped abrasion on the lower front of her neck: when the cord was pulled in, the chain got dragged across the throat.

The ligature furrow crosses the anterior midline of the neck just below the laryngeal prominence, approximately at the level of the cricoid cartilage. It is almost completely horizontal with slight upward deviation from the horizontal towards the back of the neck. The midline of the furrow mark on the anterior neck is 8 inches below the top of the head. The midline of the furrow mark on the posterior neck is 6.75 inches below the top of the head.

Isn't that what I said?

The area of abrasion and petechial hemorrhage of the skin of the anterior neck includes on the lower left neck, just to the left of the midline, a roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion which measures 1.5 inches in length with a maximum width of 0.75 inches. This roughly triangular shaped abrasion is obliquely oriented with the apex superior and lateral.

I know the abrasion of which you speak. Didn't someone mention not too long ago that those might be marks from someone's knuckles?

The remainder of the abrasions and petechial hemorrhages of the skin above and below the anterior projection of the ligature furrow are nonpatterned, purple to rust colored, and present in the midline, right, and left areas of the anterior neck. The skin just above the ligature furrow along the right side of the neck contains petechial hemorrhage composed of multiple confluent very small petechial hemorrhages as well as several larger petechial hemorrhages measuring up to one-sixteenth and one-eighth of an inch in maximum dimension. Similar smaller petechial hemorrhages are present on the skin below the ligature furrow on the left lateral aspect of the neck.

Right.

JBR's neck was a mess. It had plenty of abrasions and bleeding within the skin.

I do not believe I said otherwise!

The only way to generate abrasions like this is by struggle.

You'd sure like us to believe that. Problem is, it doesn't wash. For one thing, petechiae are very easy to get. Here, have a look:

http://www.drhull.com/EncyMaster/P/petechiae.html

"Petechiae (puh-TEE-key-eye) are tiny little broken capillary blood vessels. Everyone has had them. A hard bout of coughing or vomiting can cause facial petechiae, especially around the eyes. These mean nothing. Newborns often have facial petechiae from the tight squeeze through the cervix. Thus petechiae are fairly common and in general of no concern."

I have some more material you might want to have a look at:

Werner Spitz, forensic pathologist: "someone took a lot of time to stage strangulation and sexual assault after she was unconscious. She did have a circulation....she did have blood clots, she did have heart beat, she did breathe, for awhile, after the head injury."

Tom Henry, forensic pathologist, says JonBenet may have even survived unconscious for fifteen minutes before she was strangled: "The fact that she's got this extensive of a - described as a - essentially a blood clot in the scalp to me indicates a little longer period of time that she had to survive, a little more blood pumping under pressure for a longer period of time."

Henry Lee, forensic consultant: "head wound was fully developed."

Ronald Wright, forensic pathologist: "She was whopped on the head a long time before she was strangled." He said 20 to 60 minutes elapsed between the skull fracture and the strangulation.

PMPT, pb, pg 558-559: "The injury to her head was fully developed, which meant that her heart had beaten for some time after the blow. The specialists estimated that ten to forty-five minutes might have elapsed."

You getting all of this, brother? Or am I just talking to myself?

What are you talking about? And I mean that with sincere concern.

You'll have to forgive me if I'm not touched by your sudden show of compassion.

What ARE you talking about?

Exactly what I said, sir! Tell me: where are the bruises on her knees and elbows? Where are the bite marks inside her mouth?

A falsehood, plain and simple.

Sorry, HOTYH. I don't deal in falsehoods. They don't get me anywhere. Not to mention that if there's anyone who should be complaining about falsehoods, it ought to be me! RST "investigators" created this "evidence" of defensive wounding completely out of whole cloth. I've actually written about this.

I keep mentioning that Ames is the person to speak to about this. Well, I hope she forgives me for what I'm about to do. This is a quote from her that she let me use in the book to illustrate my point:

I would just like to say that when I was really young, and in Elementary School, I rode the bus with a high school boy, that I swear was Satan's son. He was really mean to all of the younger kids on the bus. While I was sitting in one of the seats, minding my OWN business, he was sitting directly behind me. He took a cord, about the width of a shoestring, and placed it in front of my neck, and began to pull as hard as he could, from behind. As he was doing this, I heard his grunts....from pulling so tight...and in between his grunts, his laughter. He apparently thought this was funny!! Anyway, I can still remember gasping for air, as my throat closed in...and also scratching my neck, trying desperately to remove the cord so that I could breathe. As I was about to lose conciousness....Satan's son finally let go. I will never forget that feeling as long as I live. Having your airway cut off, is a terrible feeling. I almost clawed my neck to shreds...just trying to get my fingers under it enough so that I could at least TRY to pull it away. I believe that JonBenet's head injury came first..and then the strangulation....or ELSE...she would have had severe scratches on her neck, from trying to remove the cord, AND would have had lots of her own FRESH skin under her fingernails.

It was violent and intended to result in her death as evidenced by the knot:
"Wrapped around the neck with a double knot in the midline of the posterior neck is a length of white cord similar to that described as being tied around the right wrist."

I hardly see how that proves anything! Indeed, I've explained many times what an inefficient weapon the garrote as seen would be. Not only that, but it helps to remember the words of former Denver DA, Norm Early:

"You don't want the coroner to come back and say, 'oh, this strangulation couldn't have killed someone.' So you pull it deeper and deeper."

There are no manual strangulation, garrote staging, or accidental EA death scenarios that would result in these injuries and the double knot.

TRY ME.

I wouldn't waste a nickel on them.

No, you probably wouldn't. Well, there was a time when I wouldn't have either.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

SD, really. The petechial hemorrhages on each side of the cord and underneath the cord, combined with large areas of abrasion, as described by the autopsy report represents nothing less than an assault on the idea that the cord was placed, tightened, and knotted without resistance.

Its truly absurd and why RDI pitches the idea defies reason and logic. Circumvents the primary hard evidence of large and small abrasions and hemorrhaging exactly at the site of the ligature furrow.

I just don't know how to tell you this...but you've wasted your time. Perhaps there is another RDI theory where JBR was deliberately strangled? I wouldn't waste my time on staged garrote ideas, because lethal strangulation by ligature is already authenticated.

You're reeling SD because you called the hemorrhaging 'minor' and the coroner notes them repeatedly as both large and small all around and underneath the ligature furrow, with injured areas measuring 2x3 inches. There's no way to reconcile your statements with the coroner. Its like your just making the investigation the way you want it to be!

Sorry but it doesn't work that way...

I suggest dropping the 'staged strangulation' idea from your theory. The ligature knot at the back of the neck combined with multiple large and small petechial hemorrhaging and abrasions exactly at and under the ligature site on the front of the neck is proof of intent to kill.

 

[BBB167893]

SD, really.

I assure you I am QUITE real, HOTYH. And deadly serious. Not to mention a little miffed.

The petechial hemorrhages on each side of the cord and underneath the cord, combined with large areas of abrasion, as described by the autopsy report represents nothing less than an assault on the idea that the cord was placed, tightened, and knotted without resistance.

An unsuccessful assault. And that's being generous. It's not just me saying that, either, HOTYH. Try viewing it in the context of everything else. I swear, it's like you didn't read a word I wrote.

Its truly absurd and why RDI pitches the idea defies reason and logic.

Neither, nor, HOTYH. It fits in quite well with everything else we have to work with.

Circumvents the primary hard evidence of large and small abrasions and hemorrhaging exactly at the site of the ligature furrow.

Not at all. In fact, if anyone is circumventing things, it's you. Do you know what would had to have happened in order for your theory to be the correct one? The killer would have to hold her down WHILE he was making the garrote on her body, THEN he'd have to strangle her with one hand while using his other two hands (yes, you read that right!) to manually separate her labia enough to jab the end of the paintbrush in while he was doing it. AND, he'd have to achieve the monumental feat of bisecting her body so that her lower body was facing up (consistent with the penetration angle) while her UPPER body was facing down! I'm afraid you'll have to explain that one to me.

I just don't know how to tell you this...but you've wasted your time.

I was just thinking the SAME THING! I can't imagine where I could get that idea!

Oh, and thank you so much for your biting condescension. I haven't gotten my recommended daily dose for today yet.

Perhaps there is another RDI theory where JBR was deliberately strangled?

Ask around, brother. Heck, start a thread on it.

I wouldn't waste my time on staged garrote ideas, because lethal strangulation by ligature is already authenticated.

The two are far from mutually exclusive, HOTYH, as I've tried to explain (for all the good it's done me). We know the METHOD of her death. What I'm talking about is the INTENT. If the person didn't know she was still alive, then the intent was not to kill her, but to tell a story about how she died.

You're reeling SD

I have not yet begun to fight!

because you called the hemorrhaging 'minor' and the coroner notes them repeatedly as both large and small all around and underneath the ligature furrow, with injured areas measuring 2x3 inches.

But only superficial. Where is the INTERNAL damage?

There's no way to reconcile your statements with the coroner.

Well, that's funny, because I've got quite a few coroners on my side.

Its like your just making the investigation the way you want it to be!

Sorry but it doesn't work that way...

No, it doesn't. And I'm NOT, because there's no need.

I suggest dropping the 'staged strangulation' idea from your theory.

Thought about it. Didn't work for me.

The ligature knot at the back of the neck combined with multiple large and small petechial hemorrhaging and abrasions exactly at and under the ligature site on the front of the neck is proof of intent to kill.

Not to me, and not to the examiners.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Not to me, and not to the examiners.

All I can say is...you and your examiners have a go at it then.

I can't really justify any of my own personal time on theories where the ligature was applied to an unresponsive person, because of the large abrasions and under-the-skin hemorrhaging on her neck.

If you choose to thats obviously your right. Its too bad though because you have a lot of case knowledge accumulated.

 

[DeeDee249]

All I can say is...you and your examiners have a go at it then.

I can't really justify any of my own personal time on theories where the ligature was applied to an unresponsive person, because of the large abrasions and under-the-skin hemorrhaging on her neck.

If you choose to thats obviously your right. Its too bad though because you have a lot of case knowledge accumulated.

The large triangular abrasion on her neck is found on many hanging and strangulation victims, and comparative photos have been posted here before. That large abrasion is the result of blood pooling under the area of deepest pressure as the ligature was tightened, and need not correspond with where the knot is tied, and appears on the front of the throat. Under the skin hemorrhaging is NOT an indication of struggle. It happens regardless of the victim struggling or not, and is not caused by the struggle itself.
There was absolutely nothing to indicate JB was struggling or even conscious during the strangulation (thankfully). Her own flesh and blood was not found under her nails, and the marks on neck that have been so repeatedly mis-stated as being scratches were, in FACT, petechiae.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

That large abrasion is the result of blood pooling under the area of deepest pressure as the ligature was tightened, and need not correspond with where the knot is tied, and appears on the front of the throat. Under the skin hemorrhaging is NOT an indication of struggle. It happens regardless of the victim struggling or not, and is not caused by the struggle itself.
There was absolutely nothing to indicate JB was struggling or even conscious during the strangulation (thankfully). Her own flesh and blood was not found under her nails, and the marks on neck that have been so repeatedly mis-stated as being scratches were, in FACT, petechiae.

Are you talking about the autopsy report for JBR or someone else?

Your claim that a large abrasion is anything besides a large abrasion amounts to misinformation or obfuscation. Did you know there were MANY ABRASIONS, not just one? And not just on her neck.

a·bra·sion

 –noun 1. a scraped spot or area; the result of rubbing or abrading: abrasions on his leg caused by falling on the gravel.

-------------------------------------------------------

Are you aware that abrasions are the result of rubbing or abrading? Do you know that the coroner reported multiple and large abrasions exactly at the ligature?

Abrasions are not pooled blood, hematoma, or petechial hemorrhaging. They are SCRAPES.

-------------------------------------------------

A deep ligature furrow encircles the entire neck. The width of the furrow varies from one-eighth of an inch to five/sixteenths of an inch and is horizontal in orientation, with little upward deviation. The skin of the anterior neck above and below the ligature furrow contains areas of petechial hemorrhage and abrasion encompassing an area measuring approximately 3x2 inches. The ligature furrow crosses the anterior midline of the neck just below the laryngeal prominence, approximately at the level of the cricoid cartilage. It is almost completely horizontal with slight upward deviation from the horizontal towards the back of the neck. The midline of the furrow mark on the anterior neck is 8 inches below the top of the head. The midline of the furrow mark on the posterior neck is 6.75 inches below the top of the head.



The area of abrasion and petechial hemorrhage of the skin of the anterior neck includes on the lower left neck, just to the left of the midline, a roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion which measures 1.5 inches in length with a maximum width of 0.75 inches. This roughly triangular shaped abrasion is obliquely oriented with the apex superior and lateral. The remainder of the abrasions and petechial hemorrhages of the skin above and below the anterior projection of the ligature furrow are nonpatterned, purple to rust colored, and present in the midline, right, and left areas of the anterior neck. The skin just above the ligature furrow along the right side of the neck contains petechial hemorrhage composed of multiple confluent very small petechial hemorrhages as well as several larger petechial hemorrhages measuring up to one-sixteenth and one-eighth of an inch in maximum dimension. Similar smaller petechial hemorrhages are present on the skin below the ligature furrow on the left lateral aspect of the neck.

----------------------------------------------

Proof JBR struggled against the ligature because of the scrapes.
Proof of deadly intent because of the posterior knot.
Proof she was alive because of the petechial hemorrhages.

Time to move on, RDI. I suggest a theory with deadly intent and struggle because staged ligature is a gonner.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Not to me, and not to the examiners.

Its one thing if you believe abrasions aren't abrasions. Its quite another for a professional to believe they dont exist. How embarrassing for them. Had they never read the autopsy report or what?

BTW what do you suppose caused all these abrasions (scrapes) on JBR's neck, at the exact site of the ligature? And why did you call them minor?

 

[DeeDee249]

Photos of other strangulation victims have exactly the same marks. Abrasions can also be rubs- they don't have to be a scrape.

 

[CathyR]

Patsy's handwriting matches the RN. That trumps linguistics any day.

According to John Douglas it didn't match. At least not enough to say undoubtedly.
If it was a match they would not have need to consult a linguist.

 

[CathyR]

Photos of other strangulation victims have exactly the same marks. Abrasions can also be rubs- they don't have to be a scrape.

I agree I think the abrasions were caused by the rope rubbing on her neck as it was tightened. The triangular ones are exactly at the back where the rope was crossed over itself and pulled. She might have struggled some adding to the rubbing but it wasn't fierce resistance.