France - 5 shot, 4 dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications, 2012 #2

[Little Jedi]

Just read Bluebird's comments ... WOW: http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/09/not-forgetting-the-al-hillis/comment-page-103/

WOW Indeed !
Some VERY INTERESTING information in those comments.

 

[Indy Anna]

Indy Anna wrote: According to investigators, blood splatters from SM were found on the shoes of SAH and the oldest daughter, indicating they were standing very near SM when he was shot (per link earlier in thread).

But the link actually said: The cyclist’s blood was on al-Hilli’s pant leg and on the soles of his daughter’s feet, even though al-Hilli was shot through the window as he sat in the driver seat.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...akthrough.html

The blood was on the soles of the daughter's feet and Dad's pant leg. It doesn't say splatter, they could have gotten blood by trying to help the first person shot until they realized they were targets too.... The main thing is the cyclist was shot first and probably therefore "the target of the hit". IMO

Yes, I realized after I read ZZ's post and reread the article that I was using someone else's paraphrase and not the quote from the article. But it is still evidence that SAH and the daughter were outside of the car when SM was shot. Blood could have gotten on the soles of the daughter's feet as she ran through pools of blood on the ground while getting into the car, but the only way SAH could have gotten SM's blood on his pant leg was if he was outside of his vehicle and near SM when SM was shot. And the daughter said she was standing next to her father when the killer struck.

Personally, I don't see any indication SAH tried to help SM after he (SM) was shot. SM was shot multiple times. Since SAH was also targeted and IMO would have known it, he must have gotten into his vehicle quickly to try driving away -- while SM was still being shot. But, SAH didn't have time to escape with his family, so the gunfire had to be rapid.

I just can't see SAH trying to help a man who was still being shot at, getting into the line of fire himself and knowing his family was in danger (including young daughter out of the car next to him). I could see SAH stopping to help a cyclist off the side of the road who appeared to be the victim of a hit and run. But, if that's what happened, it would suggest the killer didn't flee the scene immediately. Yet, he was gone when another cyclist came upon the scene minutes (? I can't find an article specifying the lapse in time) later.

Again, IMO (in my opinion); JMO (just my opinion)

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/406839/Mystery-of-Alps-murder-deepens-as-clues-suggest-British-family-was-not-main-target?
google_editors_picks=true

<snipped>

Zainab has said her father was standing next to her when the killer struck...

<snipped>

“I’m not saying that couldn’t have happened. But the authorities should have a far more open mind about the French cyclist who was also at the scene. The ballistics show he was the first person to be shot and he got the worst of the gunfire. We also know there are lots of possible motives for attacking him so it’s very possible this was an attack that turned into a hit.”

 

[jimmycrackcorn]

Sm didn't necessarily have to be the intended target, when the shooter jumps out he sees him on the bike so he shoots him first cause if he doesn't sm is just going to spin around and fly back down the hill. He has a witness now and someone that can call 911, so he shoots him first knowing that the driver of the car is out of the car so he has a few seconds. Then he shoots at the diver of the car then walks over and finishes both of them off. Not saying that's what happened but it's another possibility.

 

[kemo]

I'n been going over various internet sources (google is great) and have read numerous media sources that report, paraphase and occasionally quote "real" sources and then there are bloggers who report, paraphrase and quote media sources, many of which are not available. You do get a sense of what is credible and what is just conjecture but you can never be sure. I have learned the following that I think is very likely to be essentially accurate:

1) Sylvain Mollier worked for Cezus, a company based in Ugine which is owned by Areva, a multinational nuclear power research and developer. He was a Senior Production Manager specialising in nuclear fuel cladding made from zirconium. The primary purpose of this material is the casings that hold the rods in nuclear generating plants but it has other applications in the nuclear field. Sylvain was trained as a technician. He was not a scientist but he had a higher level of expertise than would be suggested as his earlier portrayal as a "welder". Areva is very security conscious and circumvent in releasing information. There is much speculation that zirconium technology is critical to the production of gas centrifuges capable of delivering weapon grade uranium. Apparently this material is subject to the nuclear technology embargo of Iran.

From all can tell, SM as the first person shot, seems solid. He was shot one or more times but the shots were not thought to be fatal. Zainab was shot once in the shoulder. Don't if SAH was shot before he entered the car. SAH, SM and apparently the shooter were standing behind the car when the shooting started. It is speculated that SAH was trying to hit the shooter when he was backing up. He missed but the ran over SM before he backed into the soft dirt behind him. He was still in reverse so he was probably unconscious at that point. It sounds like the shooter hit him as he was driving in reverse, which would be very proficient shooting, or he bleed out from a shoot he received before he got in the car. If the shooter jumped out of the way of the car then shot the driver in the head through the window as he drove by, this is the mark of a professional.

At that point, apparently the shooter shot every adult in the car and polished each off with two head shots. He is then believed to have dragged SM over by the front left wheel of the vehicle and search through his pockets and the gave him two head shots. It is speculated that the gunman didn't finish him off until he had a chance to verbally interact with him; presumably ask question. I doubt anyone knows what, if anything was said. At some point, the gunman hit Zainab very hard with the handle of the gun but he did not shot her any more.There were 25 cartridges at the scene. The clips held 7 rounds so the shooter would have had to reload 3 times and he should have had bullets left to shot Zainab, but he did not give her the two head shots he gave the others. Apparently he felt the need to make sure al-Hilli's wife and mother in law were dead, but not his daughter.

I have read that there we no shots to the body of the car. We don't have an accounting of where these 25 shots went but if SM was hi 5 times, Zainab once and the other three adults received 2 head shots, 12 shot are accounted for. 10 of the casings were found under the car, presumably that is where the shooter was standing when the first shots were fired. I suspect many of the remaining were body shots to the three adults in the car that were done before the final two head shots.

SAH was a freelance engineer whose primary client for the past to years was Surry Satellite services which is owned by a large Dutch defense contractor EADS. There is a certain amount of secrecy surrounding their operation as they were probably involved in spy satellites but most of the work involved imagery and mapping. Hde was involved in the technical operations of the satellite, not the information they collected and there is no evidence that Iran or any other middle eastern entity was interested in obtaining the sorts of information he had. Still, his home and his caravan in France had a considerable amount of "scientific data" stored on various devices that appeared "far beyond" what he would need for his work.

 

[jjenny]

This story just gets more and more bizarre.

 

[Elley Mae]

If you are referring to Iqbal, she was a dentist.

What makes you think she was a spy or a double agent??

Yeah I know about her being a dentist, but if a chef can be a spy why not a dentist.

 

[ZaZara]

Yeah I know about her being a dentist, but if a chef can be a spy why not a dentist.

You think she was a spy based on the fact that anyone can be a spy?
That's a bit thin IMHO.

Please explain.

 

[Little Jedi]

You think she was a spy based on the fact that anyone can be a spy?
That's a bit thin IMHO.

Please explain.

:wink:
I think it's due to the research found in the 'comments' from Swamp Fox Trots link here

Just read Bluebird's comments ... WOW: http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/09/not-forgetting-the-al-hillis/comment-page-103/

 

[Elley Mae]

You think she was a spy based on the fact that anyone can be a spy?
That's a bit thin IMHO.

Please explain.

Julia Childs

 

[Snoopster]

It's the second anniversary of the murders. Absolutely no progress according to French investigators.

Naturally there are a number of media articles today on the case...but they simply summarize the twists and turns of the case over the past 2 years.

Here are some links:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...l-Hilli-family-never-solved-two-years-on.html

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/alps-murderers-who-killed-british-family--may-have-got-away-with-the-perfect-crime-9713761.html


(local media; in french):
http://www.ledauphine.com/faits-divers/2014/09/04/deux-ans-d-enquete-et-aucun-espoir-d-elucidation-rapide

google translated quote from the above link (bolded by me):

The American episode Iqbal al-Hilli: "We learned very quickly, well before Christmas 2012," admits a source familiar with the matter. Same thing for the sketch, released 14 months after the killings but that investigators had in their possession since the early days. And those who know the case ensure it contains many more "surprises".

It seems that the French investigators are running around without direction. Is that just to create the impression of activity, while under "direction" from certain political powers not to follow certain avenues?

 

[kemo]

What did The Al-Hilli&#8217;s daughters, Zainab say? WE have been told nothing about what she told investigators. If she remembers nothing, that is one thing, but no claim has been made to that effect.

 

[Indy Anna]

What did The Al-Hilli’s daughters, Zainab say? WE have been told nothing about what she told investigators. If she remembers nothing, that is one thing, but no claim has been made to that effect.

"Testimony about what really happened that day could come from the two surviving witnesses, Zainab and Zeena.

Zainab has said her father was standing next to her when the killer struck, but child psychologists have said it may be years before the children are fit to be questioned properly."

Read more at ....

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/406839/Mystery-of-Alps-murder-deepens-as-clues-suggest-British-family-was-not-main-targetgoogle_editors_picks=true

It sounds like the girls remember very little now, but may recall more details as they age. It was a harrowing experience for them, too, which means they are likely repressing remembrance of the incident.

 

[Snoopster]

"Testimony about what really happened that day could come from the two surviving witnesses, Zainab and Zeena.

Zainab has said her father was standing next to her when the killer struck, but child psychologists have said it may be years before the children are fit to be questioned properly."

Read more at ....

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/406839/Mystery-of-Alps-murder-deepens-as-clues-suggest-British-family-was-not-main-targetgoogle_editors_picks=true

It sounds like the girls remember very little now, but may recall more details as they age. It was a harrowing experience for them, too, which means they are likely repressing remembrance of the incident.

I really don't think those girls will be able to offer much information. Their perspective at that young age will distort anything they saw. There is no need for the culprits to pursue them or worry about them.

 

[Muy Curioso]

In my opinion, from the beginning the evidence clearly pointed against the idea that one of the victims was the target of the killer (or killers). It is known with a high degree of certainty that no one was following the family vehicle or the cyclist, and is also very unlikely that any of them had an appointment at that place. Statements of witnesses indicate that victims were there by chance. That leaves few options:

1) A random murder.

2) A misidentification. A killer awaiting his victim and a mistaken identification.

3) Someone got scared. He mistake one of the victims with someone feared, and reacted violently.

I think that a random murder is the most likely answer.

Maillaud and detectives pointed to another paths, from financial disputes with a brother until fantastic spy histories, and It have more to do with economic and political issues than with evidence. All these hypotheses were launched during months, moving away the motive from France. Keep in mind that France is the country that receives more tourists, more than 80 million each year, and if killing several people involves considerable pressure to detectives, the murder of several tourists can make the pressure much greater. The idea that someone can be random killing, perhaps with tourists as objective, may cause panic and jeopardize millions of jobs.

If the motive ot the crime is not be a tourist, but a family dispute or has to do with Iraq, everyone breathes. Needless to give orders, everyone knows what is at stake, and where the pressure can go from very large to beyond all bearing.

 

[ZaZara]

The mysterious motorcyclist has finally been found and he was cleared on all accounts.


BBC reports:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-surrey-31768511


'A motorcyclist who was being sought over the murders of four members of a Surrey family in the French Alps has been ruled out of the investigation.

The biker turned out to be a local company owner, the French prosecutor told local media.

In November, French investigators had said they were looking for a mystery motorcyclist who was seen near the crime scene.
One lead in tracing the man was that he was wearing an unusual helmet, only a few thousand of which had been made.
The BBC's Lucy Williamson said: "Police had issued an artist's sketch of a motorcyclist seen near the site of the Annecy killings, and after more than a year of investigation, had managed to find and interview the man in question."

Reporting from the BBC's Paris bureau, she said: "Now officials have told French media that he is above suspicion and has been released without charge."
The motorcyclist, who has "an honourable reputation", had been on his way home after a paragliding trip, she said.

"The new development is being described here as a major setback for police who had focused much of their attention on the mystery biker," the reporter said.'


BBM

Now that this promising motorcyclist has been ruled out, this leaves us with..... not much really.



:thinking:

 

[ZaZara]

The motorcyclist had no connection to the attack and was in the area “by accident”


The Independent:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...rcyclist-solved-two-years-later-10092099.html

Annecy prosecutor Eric Maillaud said the man was identified and questioned after police cross-checked thousands of telephone records against motorbike licence data.

He said the “honourable” man was “beyond any suspicion”.

The motorcyclist was said to have been driving on the Combe d’Ire road at around 3pm before he was stopped by two forest rangers who asked him to leave.

He agreed, driving back down the path past the car park where the Al-Hilli family and a cyclist were gunned down.

The motorcyclist said he did not “make the connection” between his presence near the scene of the killing and the police picture of him which was circulated in November 2013.


BBM

 

[ZaZara]

Motorcyclist no longer suspect but may have seen something

Daily Mail:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490


A legal source close to police in Chambery, who interviewed the unidentified man, said: ‘He was seen on a nearby road within minutes of the murders, but it took many months to track him down.’

The man is from Lyon, eastern France, and was paragliding in the Alps during particular warm weather.

‘He is no longer considered suspicious, but may be re-interviewed over what he may have seen around the area,’ said the source.
(...)
It was in 2013 that the police finally issued a photo-fit image of the motorcyclist, and this is thought to have helped identify him.
The latest development is a huge setback for Eric Maillaud, the prosecutor leading the enquiry, who has already admitted that those responsible may never be caught.
Conceding that the enquiry could go on for years to come, Mr Maillaud said last year: ‘We have tried everything possible, but perhaps we’re in the presence of the perfect crime.’


BBM

 

[ZaZara]

Interesting time-line of the case at GetSurrey:

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/al-hilli-french-alps-murders-motorcyclist-8788673


The motorcyclist reportedly told police he was riding on the Combe d'Ire road at around 3pm before he was stopped by two forest rangers who asked him to leave.

He said he agreed, riding back down the path past the car park where the Al-Hilli family and a cyclist were shot down in a hail of bullets.

According to sources close to the investigation, the man has not given any information that could lead to new witnesses.

An investigator told French Info: "His personal and professional profile exclude him 95% from the list of suspects, but further inquiries are still required."


BBM

 

[Snoopster]

Interesting time-line of the case at GetSurrey:

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/al-hilli-french-alps-murders-motorcyclist-8788673


The motorcyclist reportedly told police he was riding on the Combe d'Ire road at around 3pm before he was stopped by two forest rangers who asked him to leave.

He said he agreed, riding back down the path past the car park where the Al-Hilli family and a cyclist were shot down in a hail of bullets.

According to sources close to the investigation, the man has not given any information that could lead to new witnesses.

An investigator told French Info: "His personal and professional profile exclude him 95% from the list of suspects, but further inquiries are still required."


BBM

95% isn't the same as 100%. And if they excluded him based on his "personal and professional profile", well that's not exactly evidence, is it?

From one of the links further above he said that he didn't make the connection between his presence near the crime and the police photo of him. Hmmm, are you going to tell me that he wasn't aware of the crime, aware that he was stopped by officials near the crime, and, his likeness was published in the media, and therefore didn't step forward?? That's pretty unbelievable to me. JMO.

 

[ZaZara]

95% isn't the same as 100%. And if they excluded him based on his "personal and professional profile", well that's not exactly evidence, is it?

From one of the links further above he said that he didn't make the connection between his presence near the crime and the police photo of him. Hmmm, are you going to tell me that he wasn't aware of the crime, aware that he was stopped by officials near the crime, and, his likeness was published in the media, and therefore didn't step forward?? That's pretty unbelievable to me. JMO.

The legal system is such that evidence is needed to include someone as a suspect.

He may have seen the picture and not recognized his own face, or he has no interest in the news or whatever reason an outsider may have.
This happens.

At the time, the motorcyclist was not stoppend by officals in relation to the crime.
He was stopped by forest workers who told him to return. And he did. Hardly the diehard criminal who wants to wipe out all witnesses.

I have been going through the information that is available and IMHO the only possible lead left may be the car that was seen in the vicinity, but perhaps this has also been found. If that car has anything to do with the murders at all.

A random murder by a local seems the most likely option.