"G (Guilty)" vs "NG (Not Guilty)" Where do you stand?

[cecybeans]

It occurs to me that the fact that KC is trying to act as if nothing was wrong is some circumstantial evidence, by itself, that indicates what we call "consciousness of guilt." If you ever want to see consciousness of guilt, hold up a chewed slipper in front of your puppy and put an accusing look on your face. The puppy's face will be a classic example of consciousness of guilt. That's like an admission of guilt. The opposite is when somebody absolutely knows something is extremely wrong -- like a child has been kidnapped or killed by an imaginary nanny -- and the mother tries to act as if everything is just fine. That behavior was a clear cover-up trying to hide what she did.

Great post (sorry for the OT) - and I have always suspected that it would be interpreted that way, particularly when added to the the overly elaborate and patently false explanations of where Caylee "was" and "what she was doing" during this critical time.

I enjoyed your analogy as it just gave me a great picture of my own little puppy, Zuki (a fuzzy black teddy bear of a shih-poo) who doesn't even bother with the guilty look but immediately "assumes the position" submissively dropping to the floor and rolling over with belly exposed acting as if she expects to be handcuffed and sent to jail in some puppy paddy wagon, even though no one has even laid a hand on her or yelled at her or acted angry with her. She just knows she is guilty and it's hilarious.

 

[Patty G]

Thanks W.

Another factor came into play with the jurors that shouldn't have; I know this will frustrate you in particular Wudge. The jury was desperate to find any way to not send these 3 young men (18-19ish) to prison for 50 years. They were charged with so many serious felonies that the term would have most likely been about that. Parents don't like to send young people away that long. Anyway, this came out after interviews with the hung jury members and so the DA retried the men , but they reduced the number counts significantly and won a conviction easily. I do agree they were guilty and justice was ultimately served.
The case was full of interesting issues and that is why I am forever referencing it.


The reason I chose 'reasonable glimmer" was because imo, that is what the jurors clung to in order to not find these boys guilty. It was sliver, but it was reasonable to them and they hung on for dear life lol.

oh man I need a TO for being so far OT.

fftopic: Couldn't resist JB.

 

[MissJames]

Thanks W.

Another factor came into play with the jurors that shouldn't have; I know this will frustrate you in particular Wudge. The jury was desperate to find any way to not send these 3 young men (18-19ish) to prison for 50 years. They were charged with so many serious felonies that the term would have most likely been about that. Parents don't like to send young people away that long. Anyway, this came out after interviews with the hung jury members and so the DA retried the men , but they reduced the number counts significantly and won a conviction easily. I do agree they were guilty and justice was ultimately served.
The case was full of interesting issues and that is why I am forever referencing it.


The reason I chose 'reasonable glimmer" was because imo, that is what the jurors clung to in order to not find these boys guilty. It was sliver, but it was reasonable to them and they hung on for dear life lol.

oh man I need a TO for being so far OT.

Going OT with you for a sec , JBEAN,cuz I have to add....I was volunteer with People Against Rape in SC. I was on call at times ,so if someone was brought into the hospital or police station claiming rape I would go be them.Just be there to support them.What I discovered is both the police and general public are always looking for ways the victim asked for it.Maybe she led the perpetrator on.Maybe she dressed provacatively and the perp took it as an invitation.Maybe she had been drinking .Maybe she shouldn't have been in a bar,car,gas station at 3am.
It's one of those crimes that the defense will almost always attack the victim.

 

[marspiter]

Give the evidence that has already been seen and weighing that evidence in my mind (not a court of law). I would say guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, heck I'll even go on to say its been proven to me beyond the shadow of any doubt.

In dealing with the people I do on a daily basis I can say an innocent person doesn't sit in jail awaiting their day in court to prove their innocence and then postpone the trial. If your innocent you don't stall the proceedings, and use defense tactics. You pretty much just say I'm innocent and here is why, pretty plain and simple if you ask me.

 

[JBean]

fftopic: Couldn't resist JB.

I was really hoping for a time out

 

[Wudge]

Going OT with you for a sec , JBEAN,cuz I have to add....I was volunteer with People Against Rape in SC. I was on call at times ,so if someone was brought into the hospital or police station claiming rape I would go be them.Just be there to support them.What I discovered is both the police and general public are always looking for ways the victim asked for it.Maybe she led the perpetrator on.Maybe she dressed provacatively and the perp took it as an invitation.Maybe she had been drinking .Maybe she shouldn't have been in a bar,car,gas station at 3am.
It's one of those crimes that the defense will almost always attack the victim.

JBean knows how I feel about rape. Rape is a heinous crime. It often greatly affects the victim throughtout their life. When I grew up, our society had very different values. The punishment in many states for a rape conviction was death.

As regards the prosecution of rape cases, my holding is that when the victim (only eyewitness and best evidence) identifies a stranger as the rapist and there is no other forensic evidence, that's a formula to produce a wrongful conviction 20% to 40% of the time.

But there's another wrongful side too; i.e., a wrongful acquittal. One reason this happens is because well-heeled local communities will sometimes try and protect "their own" in a rape case that screams for a conviction. Bernard Lefkowitz wrote a book entitled "Our Guys". It covers the rape case and trial that took place in the toney suburb of Glen Ridge, NJ around 20 years ago. It's a great read and a perfect example of what I'm referring too.

 

[Wudge]

But the variable here is what each juror considers to be reasonable.

SNIP

[Using this as a stalking horse to return to "on-track".]

To support their murder one charge, prosecutors will need to claim that after planning and considering Casey's murder for many weeks (computer records) and after driving around with Caylee's body in the trunk of her car for days that Casey's alleged disposal of the body alongside the road near her home reliably evidences a planned and deliberated murder. How reasonable is this necessary argument?

 

[marspiter]

The body was placed where it was because the area was familiar to Casey. As explained in interviews she used to hang out there as a kid and also used the area to bury her pets. Statistically most victims end up pretty near to the location of the crime and in an area that is known to the assailant. Someone doesn't have to be a comic book criminal mastermind to commit murder nor do they plan out every detail of their crime. In fact its usually the opposite in most murder one cases. Usually they aren't planned out to the exact detail. They may plan to kill a person hence premeditation but most criminals don't plan that far ahead forward to think up some elaborate plan for its (body) disposal.

That and what evidence supports that Casey ever did this kind of detailed planning? Yes she made plans and thought she was clever, but never did anything that would take that much brain power and effort to achieve. Take the check charges. She planned to use those checks and steal money from Amy but never really had a plan after that. She was clever in using the account and routing number to steal money from her grandmother but more then likely figured that was enough to get away with it. My thing is she has shown time and time again that she has gotten away with things with little planning or a minimum of effort and thinks she is clever enough to get away with it. In this case I believe Casey thought she had done enough to get away with it just like she has done in her past.

Casey killed Caylee to get back at Cindy, she had been thinking about it for some time I believe. She had a rough idea of what to do with her remains from watching shows like CSI, but felt comfortable with leaving Caylee where she could watch the evidence closely and an area that was familiar to her. That and the ease of placing her there.

As evident from the junk found in the location Casey knew people tossed trash there and more then likely thought no one would notice, and didn't give it any more forethought then that.

 

[Themis]

Which is why SODDI would be a bad choice of defense.

IMHO, the only defense that is reasonable is the one based on the truth of what actually happened. I mean really happened, not something stitched together to try to salvage KC's earlier stories, if the stories are not true. If what really happened gives rise to a lawful, justifiable excuse, that would exonerate or mitigate the death of Caylee, then let's hear it. Once again, the defense does not have to say anything, but only the defense has access to the information on the actual events. IF there is an actual defense, it will have its own details because it happened.

 

[Balthazar]

[Using this as a stalking horse to return to "on-track".]

To support their murder one charge, prosecutors will need to claim that after planning and considering Casey's murder for many weeks (computer records) and after driving around with Caylee's body in the trunk of her car for days that Casey's alleged disposal of the body alongside the road near her home reliably evidences a planned and deliberated murder. How reasonable is this necessary argument?

I see a several possible scenarios when this case goes to trial. It's going to depend on which pieces of evidence are given the most importance by the jury.

On the one hand, Casey asked the neighbor BB to borrow a shovel on June 18 or 19. Someone had searched for shovels on the Anthony home computer sometime prior to this. Yet, there was no access to a shovel for Casey on June 18 or 19 except via the neighbor BB who normally was not home during the day. In court, these pieces of the puzzle could be used to argue both for and against planning.

However, since Caylee's body was kept in the trunk of Casey's car which indicates a lack of planning as to what to do with the body and then dumped in an unorganized fashion without apparent thought of concealment, I am afraid that jurors could perceive this as an unplanned murder. It could be tough for the prosecution to prove that anyone who has committed a murder and had at least 2.6 days (per decomp odor signature) to consider how to dispose of the body (if she had planned the murder but not the disposal) would just toss the body by the roadside where it could be found by any passersby. I think this could be perceived by the jury as a panicked disposal, which IMO damages the prosecutions case that this is Murder 1.

If the Defense can somehow credibly bring forth a SODDI defense, then the disposal will be seen as a clear means to incriminate Casey.

In either case, the jury will go for a lesser charge than Murder 1, IMO.

 

[Brini]

JBean knows how I feel about rape. Rape is a heinous crime. It often greatly affects the victim throughtout their life. When I grew up, our society had very different values. The punishment in many states for a rape conviction was death.

As regards the prosecution of rape cases, my holding is that when the victim (only eyewitness and best evidence) identifies a stranger as the rapist and there is no other forensic evidence, that's a formula to produce a wrongful conviction 20% to 40% of the time.

But there's another wrongful side too; i.e., a wrongful acquittal. One reason this happens is because well-heeled local communities will sometimes try and protect "their own" in a rape case that screams for a conviction. Bernard Lefkowitz wrote a book entitled "Our Guys". It covers the rape case and trial that took place in the toney suburb of Glen Ridge, NJ around 20 years ago. It's a great read and a perfect example of what I'm referring too.

Yes! And, the Kennedy kid who raped and killed a girl, then was sent off to Europe, by his family. He was eventually hauled back and convicted, decades later. But, times had changed.

And, the other Kennedy kid who raped a young woman on the grounds of his family's compound in the 80s. He got off, and is now a physician.

Dominic Dunne's speciality-- justice, or the lack thereof, when family money is involved.

 

[MissJames]

[Using this as a stalking horse to return to "on-track".]

To support their murder one charge, prosecutors will need to claim that after planning and considering Casey's murder for many weeks (computer records) and after driving around with Caylee's body in the trunk of her car for days that Casey's alleged disposal of the body alongside the road near her home reliably evidences a planned and deliberated murder. How reasonable is this necessary argument?

KC could have been interrupted and her disposal plan went awry.That's what I would believ was the most reasonable.
You know Wudge,it's not that I don't believe you.I respect your expertise.You just aren't sayin' what I want to hear LOL :blowkiss:
I want KC to pay for this and not get off on a technicality.
I don't believe an accident is a reasonable explanation. If it was an accident ,and KC has drug her family,friends and the rest of the world through this long ,expensive battle,she deserves what she gets.She tried to throw her friends under the bus for this,along with an innocent ,unrelated woman.
But I think she is guilty of premeditated murder,even if it was mere minutes or seconds before she killed.

 

[Wudge]

The body was placed where it was because the area was familiar to Casey. As explained in interviews she used to hang out there as a kid and also used the area to bury her pets.

SNIP

As evident from the junk found in the location Casey knew people tossed trash there and more then likely thought no one would notice, and didn't give it any more forethought then that.

The question remains: how does Caylee's body placement reasonably evidence premeditation?

(I consider the body placement to be still more evidence that works strongly against premeditation.)

 

[Themis]

Truth has its own power; which goes beyond the mere powers of persuasion possessed by even the most learned lawyers.

 

[Brini]

[Using this as a stalking horse to return to "on-track".]

To support their murder one charge, prosecutors will need to claim that after planning and considering Casey's murder for many weeks (computer records) and after driving around with Caylee's body in the trunk of her car for days that Casey's alleged disposal of the body alongside the road near her home reliably evidences a planned and deliberated murder. How reasonable is this necessary argument?

Honey, many weeks? What hapened to intent can be formed in an instant?

 

[Wudge]

Honey, many weeks? What hapened to intent can be formed in an instant?

"Can" is not reliable evidence nor any form of evidence.

 

[Brini]

[Using this as a stalking horse to return to "on-track".]

To support their murder one charge, prosecutors will need to claim that after planning and considering Casey's murder for many weeks (computer records) and after driving around with Caylee's body in the trunk of her car for days that Casey's alleged disposal of the body alongside the road near her home reliably evidences a planned and deliberated murder. How reasonable is this necessary argument?

Many weeks? No, I doubt that the computer records will even be used.

The state will go for intent formed in an instant, or maybe an hour, and relay on other evidence.

 

[Brini]

The question remains: how does Caylee's body placement reasonably evidence premeditation?

(I consider the body placement to be still more evidence that works strongly against premeditation.)

Some people could see it that way.

Others could see it as KC being lazy, or taking the easiest action, as usual.

Or, as KC wanting to "keep an eye on things." Like calling the house frequently, to see if anyone's home, so she can sneak in.

 

[Wudge]

KC could have been interrupted and her disposal plan went awry.That's what I would believ was the most reasonable.
You know Wudge,it's not that I don't believe you.I respect your expertise.You just aren't sayin' what I want to hear LOL :blowkiss:
I want KC to pay for this and not get off on a technicality.
I don't believe an accident is a reasonable explanation. If it was an accident ,and KC has drug her family,friends and the rest of the world through this long ,expensive battle,she deserves what she gets.She tried to throw her friends under the bus for this,along with an innocent ,unrelated woman.
But I think she is guilty of premeditated murder,even if it was mere minutes or seconds before she killed.

A lack of evidence to support the charge is certainly not a technicality.

My primary reflection on the evidence is whether it reliably supports the premediated murder charge. By my measures, the evidence does not reliably support premediation. I don't see it to even be a close call.

 

[marspiter]

Lets also not forget the chloroform. I know the evidence we have on it right now is kind of inconclusive and they can't prove with the evidence as it is right now that it was the murder weapon or why its in the car. However if it was used an they (DA's office) are holding back that info til the last possible moment that would explain the jump to the death penalty and is pretty much an automatic murder one. I know North Carolina specifically mentions poisoning in the elements of murder one because of the premeditation involved in using poison.

Once again though you don't have to be a criminal genius and plan out every single detail of your crime for months on end for it to be considered premeditated.

The simple act of reflecting upon your actions no matter how brief before the actually act of killing is enough for premeditation.

I believe Casey was tossing the idea around of killing Caylee many times. Every time she fought with Cindy, every time having Caylee got in the way of her plans, and so on and so forth. i think she thought to herself well if I did do it what would I do and as things got worse between her and Cindy those ideas became more frequent.

Then she got into her last fight with Cindy and bam found herself doing what she has been thinking about over the last several months or year because she had enough and she was gonna show Cindy just how spiteful she could be.

That's when she started piecing together her cover stories. She had already been using ZFG as a cover for leaving Caylee places or doing who knows what while she partied. So that seemed in her mind as a possible answer. It wasn't that she sat down and thought this whole thing out for months. It all finally culminated into her finally acting on her ideas and then the cover up was piecemealed from ideas and stories concocted in her head. She was and is flying by the seat of her pants. She knew her destination, but didn't exactly plan out her itinerary in every detail.