GA - Female circumcision in Atlanta

[southcitymom]

Wow that at least sounds better than how they do it in the hospital....i have been thinking a lot about this and i just dont know either way....i dont have kids yet but i am just unsure....but the chance of something happing if i dont leans me to wanting to do it....are there any stats on problems when doing the circumcision

Indy Gal,

I believe some of those stats can be found on two of the links I posted above.

I will say this. If something major goes wrong when an infant boy is left intact (a rare occurrence), a safe circumcision can always be performed quickly and at any time later in life. However, if something major goes wrong when an infant boy is circumsized (also, a rare occurrence), that damage is irreparable and you don't get a second chance to undo it.

Just my :twocents:. I respect either decision.

 

[SewingDeb]

Wow that at least sounds better than how they do it in the hospital....i have been thinking a lot about this and i just dont know either way....i dont have kids yet but i am just unsure....but the chance of something happing if i dont leans me to wanting to do it....are there any stats on problems when doing the circumcision

I don't know the stats but I personally know of two little boys where the circumcision soon after birth was botched and they are now disfigured but functional. I also read in the newspaper years ago of one baby who had his whole penis burned off when they used laser to circumcise him (I don't know how often laser is used either).

I hope these kinds of things are very rare as circumcision is so routinely done in this country.

 

[GlitchWizard]

It is only my opinion but i believe we shouldnt say things like this. Everyone in the world is allowed to have thier own beliefs. Dont get me wrong I think what he done is cruel, but remember in his country this is what he knows. and from what i have read they just do it and no one talks about it as in why or how. Again I want to make it clear that i am in no way defending him, I just didnt think this statment was called for.

Don't forget, though - if everyone in the world is allowed to have their beliefs (and to share them) then each time one of us says "we shouldn't say things like this" we are not allowing someone else to share their belief.

 

[BhamMama]

As my ex was Jewish, both of my boys were religiously circumcised (Briss) by a Rabbi. It was done at home on the 8th day. The Rabbi was trained and both boys reacted the same. They were given wine to suck on a piece of gauze, it was performed with only a little "waaaa", then another suck at the gauze with wine and they both fell asleep. We kept vaseline on the wound as instructed and that was it. There was never any infection or problems with the cuts. My in-laws paid the Rabbi.

Any Rabbi who does a circumcision has to be a trained mohel. They may be doctors or Rabbis or sometimes both. And if they are Reform Jews they must be a board certified doctor or midwife.

We had a Brit Milah for 3 of our sons at home, 2 were done by a mohel and one by a mohelet (a woman), they had a topical anesthetic cream put on before hand. All three of my sons cried, but not for long. All three actual circumcisons only took about a minute. The ceremony itself lasted way longer lol

We had the same gauze and vaselin with lidocaine added for comfort. No problems here either with follow up care or any infections. Was only really red that day.

But ya know the ones that do this to their daughters feel the same way I do. They based it on their religion. Of course I can't change it now, last one was 8 years ago. It does however make me stop and think, and I may not be so inclined to just blindly follow my religious teachings, esp as they seem to be evolving in the religion itself, the next time I am asked if I had my sons circumcised and how I feel about it and do I recommend it.

I still don't know how'd I feel if the same safe treatments were given to girls to allow this practise. On one hand, I'd feel like a hypocrit and holier than thou if I said, no girls can't be treated as equals to this degree, yet isn't that what I want for my girls? To be treated as equals with respect? And if they changed the way they do it, would that pacify me? My gut says no...buy why do I still think no?

I'm going to ask my Rabbi his views. I think I know them but you can never tell. I think I'll also bring this up at the next Mothers meeting. I really have been thinking a lot on this subject and would like to talk it out with others.

 

[southcitymom]

Any Rabbi who does a circumcision has to be a trained mohel. They may be doctors or Rabbis or sometimes both. And if they are Reform Jews they must be a board certified doctor or midwife.

We had a Brit Milah for 3 of our sons at home, 2 were done by a mohel and one by a mohelet (a woman), they had a topical anesthetic cream put on before hand. All three of my sons cried, but not for long. All three actual circumcisons only took about a minute. The ceremony itself lasted way longer lol

We had the same gauze and vaselin with lidocaine added for comfort. No problems here either with follow up care or any infections. Was only really red that day.

But ya know the ones that do this to their daughters feel the same way I do. They based it on their religion. Of course I can't change it now, last one was 8 years ago. It does however make me stop and think, and I may not be so inclined to just blindly follow my religious teachings, esp as they seem to be evolving in the religion itself, the next time I am asked if I had my sons circumcised and how I feel about it and do I recommend it.

I still don't know how'd I feel if the same safe treatments were given to girls to allow this practise. On one hand, I'd feel like a hypocrit and holier than thou if I said, no girls can't be treated as equals to this degree, yet isn't that what I want for my girls? To be treated as equals with respect? And if they changed the way they do it, would that pacify me? My gut says no...buy why do I still think no?

I'm going to ask my Rabbi his views. I think I know them but you can never tell. I think I'll also bring this up at the next Mothers meeting. I really have been thinking a lot on this subject and would like to talk it out with others.

Bham Mama,

I really appreciate your open-mindedness about this subject. I have been thinking about it a lot as well. My gut also says NO - it's worse to do this to girls because it removes their ability to have sexual pleasure in the future and it doesn't usually do this to men. BUT, the people who do this to girls have the relegious belief that they are indeed doing the right thing....it really is a riddle to me. I will be interested in what your rabbi has to say.

 

[eve]

did they at least put him under for the surgry

Yes, he was under a general. Which also has its risks, not necessary in infancy but at 5 it is. The bad thing was that they gave him a "saddle block" just after he woke up to numb the area and it didn't take properly. The nurse said his leg was numb, but not his groin area. I was in the waiting area and could clearly hear his voice, "Mama! My peeeeeenis!" He was crying and they came and got me. They set up a recliner and put him in my lap (with all the tubes/IVs and everything) I was 8 months pregnant and didn't have much of a lap! But it comforted him.

He was pretty bummed out the next day because there was a birthday party at a park and he couldn't swing or be on the see-saw! He did go but he didn't know how to explain why he couldn't do much - we told him to say he had "a procedure" and 5 years olds were satisfied with that. It was funny, none of them said "what kind of procedure?" They just said "Oh!" He wore a long t-shirt and nothing else for a few days when at home, but it healed fine. He does remember it. He's in college now! He did recently say, "Mama (my son still calls me "Mama!") I'm glad I'm circumsized, though, so I forgive ya!" I really didn't ask him why he was glad. :silenced: Some things you don't want to talk about with a college sophmore. :angel:


Eve

 

[Nocgirl]

I really don't care if circumsicion is a tradition, where unskilled people do it in unhygenic conditions. It is mean and very often HIV and other diseases get transmitted with it. It should not be done by anyone without a medical background.

It is a severe form of child abuse if some yo yo from another country does it in the US on their child. To do it with a pair of scissors is just appaling. Especially since there is no medical reason whatsoever to do it to a female.

 

[southcitymom]

Closing arguments scheduled today

By LATEEF MUNGIN
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 10/31/06
The defense rested this morning in the case of a father accused of circumcising his two-year-old daughter.

Closing arguments in the case are scheduled this afternoon in the case against Khalid Adem.


Adem, 31, is charged with aggravated battery and cruelty to children for the circumcision that authorities say occurred sometime in 2001. Health and human rights activists refer to the procedure as female genital mutilation.

If convicted, he could face 40 years in prison.

Outside the courtroom this morning, the maternal uncle of the young victim said his family can't predict a verdict.

"I think the D.A. presented a really strong case," said Colin Dube. "But there are 12 jurors and all they have to do is create doubt with one. And you have seen they have tried to create doubt and confusion."

More at link:
http://www.ajc.com/news/content/metro/gwinnett/stories/2006/10/31/1101gwxadem.html

 

[SadieMae]

I really don't care if circumsicion is a tradition, where unskilled people do it in unhygenic conditions. It is mean and very often HIV and other diseases get transmitted with it. It should not be done by anyone without a medical background.

It is a severe form of child abuse if some yo yo from another country does it in the US on their child. To do it with a pair of scissors is just appaling. Especially since there is no medical reason whatsoever to do it to a female.

With female circumcision, not only is there no medical reason, these girls can't even function normally. Come on, hacked and sewn shut, so that you can barely even pee? It can't even be compared to male circumcision IMO.

 

[southcitymom]

With female circumcision, not only is there no medical reason, these girls can't even function normally. Come on, hacked and sewn shut, so that you can barely even pee? It can't even be compared to male circumcision IMO.

Well, that's the point - there are NO medical reasons for male circumcision either. All major medical academies are in agreement about this.

Here's the opinion of one:

"The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) says the benefits of circumcision are not significant enough to recommend circumcision as a routine procedure and that circumcision is not medically necessary."

more at link
http://familydoctor.org/042.xml

 

[SadieMae]

Well, that's the point - there are NO medical reasons for male circumcision either. All major medical academies are in agreement about this.

Here's the opinion of one:

"The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) says the benefits of circumcision are not significant enough to recommend circumcision as a routine procedure and that circumcision is not medically necessary."

more at link
http://familydoctor.org/042.xml

You are right, but it's something that's been done so routinely here. I don't even recall even being asked it I wanted either of my sons circumcised...it was just done. And I didn't having any information saying it didn't need to be done at the time. But at least boys can function normally, what they do to these girls is deplorable.

 

[southcitymom]

You are right, but it's something that's been done so routinely here. I don't even recall even being asked it I wanted either of my sons circumcised...it was just done. And I didn't having any information saying it didn't need to be done at the time. But at least boys can function normally, what they do to these girls is deplorable.

Yes, it has been done routinely here for a long time. Just as female circumcision has been done routinely in the villages of Africa for a long time.

I was just taking issue with your statement that female circumcions can't even be compared to male circumcision. It can - their are lots of similarities.

That said, I really agree with you that female circumcion somehow seems more cruel to me than male circumcision. The vast majority of males can have pleasureable normal sex lives after being circumcized, but the vast majority of females cannot.

 

[CyberLaw]

Well some girls in some countries, a doctor with sterile equipment, a sterile room, pain killer, they go under, that is "civilized as it gets".

Other ways: A piece of glass, rusted dirty instrument, the child is held down and butchered.

There is not medical reason to 'butcher" a child. It is for a male dominated society. It is meant to keep a "girl" pure until marriage, it is not medically based but "a honor" rite.

For boys, the "op" is usually done when they are quite young, and they are not "butchered" but for girls, many die and are "scared" both physically and emotionally for life.

Girls die from bleeding, infection, and it is "akin" to torture..........

 

[angelmom]

Well, that's the point - there are NO medical reasons for male circumcision either. All major medical academies are in agreement about this.

Here's the opinion of one:

"The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) says the benefits of circumcision are not significant enough to recommend circumcision as a routine procedure and that circumcision is not medically necessary."

more at link
http://familydoctor.org/042.xml

Yes, BUT this is a new stance from the AAP. It was recommended not that long ago, and 12 years ago when my oldest son was circumcised the AAP said that the medical benefits and risks were equally balanced so as to make it a personal decision. I don't think anyone has ever suggested that a circumcised female is healthier.

Also, male circumcision was never a tool to dominate, intimidate, or control men. Is there any other reason for female circumcision? Whether true or not, there have always been health and hygiene concerns behind it for the men.

 

[CyberLaw]

Also I might add, that males are not butchered under condtions that will lead to their death. They are not forced down and held down by many people, and then the op is performed.

I don't know of any men, boys, male infants that have "died" and been in agony and pain for the rest of their lives. Women die from bleeding and infection.

 

[southcitymom]

Yes, BUT this is a new stance from the AAP. It was recommended not that long ago, and 12 years ago when my oldest son was circumcised the AAP said that the medical benefits and risks were equally balanced so as to make it a personal decision. I don't think anyone has ever suggested that a circumcised female is healthier.

Also, male circumcision was never a tool to dominate, intimidate, or control men. Is there any other reason for female circumcision? Whether true or not, there have always been health and hygiene concerns behind it for the men.

Yes, our attitudes on male circumcision are definitely changing!

 

[bakerprune64]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/10/27/female.circumcision.ap/index.html

Certainly something that was thought of by some (you walk behind me by 10 steps) controlling male. I'm sure men in that culture can have pleasure, but since they have castrated all of the females then they must be having it with each other. Freaking animals! I don't think that male castration can be compared to the horrific conditions that this crime was committed.

 

[concernedperson]

Yes, I am changing my views on male circumcision but the mutilation of this girl child warrents at least 10 years in prison.Too many times it has been relegating females to a lessor status. To take away anything that gives pleasure and to merit it with cultural advantage is especially appalling.

There was also something called dowries that played importence in the 19th century. I saw Pride and Prejudice for the first time yesterday. I was floored with the thinking.

We have got to step up to the plate and protect our daughters. We are not people that have to step aside and our girl children aren't either.There is no protected class. There is no reason that our daughters cannot be part and parcel to the whole humankind with all the responsibilities. They are not less because they are female. They are just as responsible and they deserve the absolute same respect as male counterparts including responsibility.

I don't know why I am ranting. It just felt like something I had to do at the time. But, if anyone understands just know it came from my heart not a meaness streak.

 

[southcitymom]

Yes, I am changing my views on male circumcision but the mutilation of this girl child warrents at least 10 years in prison.Too many times it has been relegating females to a lessor status. To take away anything that gives pleasure and to merit it with cultural advantage is especially appalling.

There was also something called dowries that played importence in the 19th century. I saw Pride and Prejudice for the first time yesterday. I was floored with the thinking.

We have got to step up to the plate and protect our daughters. We are not people that have to step aside and our girl children aren't either.There is no protected class. There is no reason that our daughters cannot be part and parcel to the whole humankind with all the responsibilities. They are not less because they are female. They are just as responsible and they deserve the absolute same respect as male counterparts including responsibility.

I don't know why I am ranting. It just felt like something I had to do at the time. But, if anyone understands just know it came from my heart not a meaness streak.

I didn't find this sentiment mean at all. Females have come a long way (particularly in this country), but we still have a long way to go for our daughters to inherit true equality. I too find the controlling aspect of female circumcision appalling, even in light of the tradition from which it springs. Customs, habits, mores, beliefs take a long time to shift sometimes.

 

[Pandora]

CNN article about the sperm-donor's sentencing. (I can't bring myself to call him her father.)
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/11/01/female.circumcision.ap/index.html

Thanks to all of you for your comments about male circumcision. I'm learning a lot. Although I don't have kids, nor intend to, I do have nieces and nephews--all of the nephews have been circumcised.