GA - Kendrick Johnson, 17, Suspicious Death, Jan. 10/11, 2013, #1

[IzzyBlanche]

I could think of several ways -- but I would like to see the context of the statement. Would you happen to recall in which article this was mentioned? (Not doubting for a second that you read this, but I'd like to see what exactly was said, and by whom; tia.)

I totally understand, being a stickler for sources myself.

It's in the crime lab report.

Page 4: "There was visible dried blood on Johnson's arms, face, and chest."

This isn't new news, but I find it extremely interesting that he says the initial walkthrough was at 1125 hours and the next time noted is the coroner's arrival at 1600 hours.

What exactly was taking place during that 5-hour period?

http://www.news4jax.com/blob/view/-...Crime-lab-report-in-Kendrick-Johnson-case.pdf

 

[Karmady]

I totally understand, being a stickler for sources myself.

It's in the crime lab report.

Page 4: "There was visible dried blood on Johnson's arms, face, and chest."

This isn't new news, but I find it extremely interesting that he says the initial walkthrough was at 1125 hours and the next time noted is the coroner's arrival at 1600 hours.

What exactly was taking place during that 5-hour period?

http://www.news4jax.com/blob/view/-...Crime-lab-report-in-Kendrick-Johnson-case.pdf

I read an article, probably the valdosta one gmx posted a few days ago, that said they were doing the investigation and wouldn't be moving the body until that was done. So rather than call the coroner and have him sit in the parking lot for several hours waiting to collect the body, they processed the scene and called him when they were nearly done.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

I read an article, probably the valdosta one gmx posted a few days ago, that said they were doing the investigation and wouldn't be moving the body until that was done. So rather than call the coroner and have him sit in the parking lot for several hours waiting to collect the body, they processed the scene and called him when they were nearly done.

Yes, I read that too. But under GA law they are supposed to call the coroner immediately.

Also I wonder why he would have to sit in the parking lot? Surely he/she would have the authority to enter the crime scene. ETA: Not asking you, just jumping off.

 

[Montjoy]

According to the report (thanks to Izzy for the link!), KJ bled through his eyes, nose, and mouth, and there was a pool of blood below him. He had no cuts on his body, and it would seem that if he was killed by a fatal assault that skin would have been broken. I would guess that when the mat was put in a horizontal position (at which point his head, torso, and arms became exposed, when his body descended or was pulled out of the bottom of the mat) that some of that blood from the pool below him would have spread to parts of his body. As he was not cut, I cannot imagine from where else it would have come. If he had been bleeding before he entered the mat, one would expect blood to be found in many places, and not just in a pool below him. There was clearly not time for anyone who might have killed him to clean up all potential blood evidence of a crime -- of which I think there could have been none. (Also of note -- the 14 1/4" measurement of the aperture of the rolled mat is documented as an approximation, which would make it seem unlikely that it was actually measured before being unrolled.) Also, if the mat in which he was found was at the back-row of the rolled, vertical mats (as documented in the report), it seems impossible that he was rolled into a mat -- that would require that whoever did it would have had to have moved several mats weighing hundreds of pounds each. Totally implausible, to boot.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

According to the report (thanks to Izzy for the link!), KJ bled through his eyes, nose, and mouth, and there was a pool of blood below him. He had no cuts on his body, and it would seem that if he was killed by a fatal assault that skin would have been broken. I would guess that when the mat was put in a horizontal position (at which point his head, torso, and arms became exposed, when his body descended or was pulled out of the bottom of the mat) that some of that blood from the pool below him would have spread to parts of his body. As he was not cut, I cannot imagine from where else it would have come. If he had been bleeding before he entered the mat, one would expect blood to be found in many places, and not just in a pool below him. There was clearly not time for anyone who might have killed him to clean up all potential blood evidence of a crime -- of which I think there could have been none. (Also of note -- the 14 1/4" measurement of the aperture of the rolled mat is documented as an approximation, which would make it seem unlikely that it was actually measured before being unrolled.) Also, if the mat in which he was found was at the back-row of the rolled, vertical mats (as documented in the report), it seems impossible that he was rolled into a mat -- that would require that whoever did it would have had to have moved several mats weighing hundreds of pounds each. Totally implausible, to boot.

BBM for focus.

My scientific knowledge is limited, but given the fact that the body wasn't removed from the mat until a good 24 hours after the presumed time of death, also given the unseasonably warm temperatures, it seems to me that the blood would have been fairly dry/congealed, and not that easy to spread around.

But I don't know. However given the combined knowledge here at WS I'm sure someone else does who can (and will, I hope!) chime in.

Regarding where else the blood could have come from, I can imagine a scenario in which KJ enters the gym, gets into an altercation of some kind with the students who were already present, receives a bloody nose that leaves blood on his chest, and then is stuffed into the mat.

Because the nose is mostly cartilage, I'm not sure that type of injury would show up on an autopsy. But again, my scientific knowledge is limited.

Finally, blood was found in another place--the wall. The same blood that the sheriff's deputy stated they determined by sight was not related to their "crime" in any way. Since it wasn't tested, no one will ever know now whether it was KJ's or not.

Change of topic:

What really drives me crazy about this case is that the official explanation has never made sense to me. To repeat myself, if someone could show me a plausible reenactment of what happened, it would go a long way toward eliminating my doubts.

I acknowledge that others here on WS think it does make sense. I see logical arguments on both sides.

My point is, though, that I dislike even using the term "sides." This isn't a football game. We can all agree that someone's child died a horrible death. And we can all agree that we'd like to be absolutely sure of what happened.

So I'm grateful for the civil discourse.

And sorry for the ramble. /soapbox :blushing:

ETA: You're welcome for the link!

 

[Montjoy]

If his nose had been bloodied before being placed in the mat (and, presumably, he was totally incapacitated or killed by it?), I cannot imagine that there wouldn't be blood between where that assault took place and where his body was found. And yes, a broken nose would have been easily identified by a coroner (and he wouldn't have been incapacitated by anything less). Moreover, the way that rigor and livor mortis had set in was consistent with the position that his body was found in the mat.

While I can't say that I can guess how *exactly* he descended into the mat (i.e., did he slip at some point, fall off balance, or just keep reaching in deeper without thinking about how difficult it would be for him to extricate himself?), I am absolutely certain that nobody else was involved, that he was not rolled up in a mat, that he was not beaten and forced into a mat, and that this was a totally horrible tragedy. My heart goes out to his parents, and I feel so sorry that they are being used by a lawyer as an opportunity for a rich lawsuit. The death of one's child is such a violation of the natural order -- even though they stand to profit financially from a lawsuit, nothing can give them any real justice here.

While I cannot see any way that this was a homicide, and I cannot fathom how there could be such a conspiracy as to murder KJ and cover up the crime, I do totally agree with you about the value of civil discourse. I'm grateful that we can discuss the facts of the case.

 

[gxm]

I agree with your first paragraph (although actually I think the mat he was in was at the back, not the center). Since so many here seem to think it's possible that he was able to fit through that 14" opening, I'm now thinking someone stuffed him into the mat rather than rolling him up in it.

My understanding is that the news reports yesterday are indicating that there were other kids in the gym at the time he got stuck. Not after.

BBM

"The one he fell into was in the middle of the stack, and he couldn’t get to it any other way than from the top ‘cause they’re so heavy he couldn’t move them.”

http://valdostadailytimes.com/local/x6223544/Timeline-of-a-tragedy

 

[gxm]

BBM for focus.

My scientific knowledge is limited, but given the fact that the body wasn't removed from the mat until a good 24 hours after the presumed time of death, also given the unseasonably warm temperatures, it seems to me that the blood would have been fairly dry/congealed, and not that easy to spread around.

But I don't know. However given the combined knowledge here at WS I'm sure someone else does who can (and will, I hope!) chime in.

Regarding where else the blood could have come from, I can imagine a scenario in which KJ enters the gym, gets into an altercation of some kind with the students who were already present, receives a bloody nose that leaves blood on his chest, and then is stuffed into the mat.

Because the nose is mostly cartilage, I'm not sure that type of injury would show up on an autopsy. But again, my scientific knowledge is limited.

Finally, blood was found in another place--the wall. The same blood that the sheriff's deputy stated they determined by sight was not related to their "crime" in any way. Since it wasn't tested, no one will ever know now whether it was KJ's or not.

Change of topic:

What really drives me crazy about this case is that the official explanation has never made sense to me. To repeat myself, if someone could show me a plausible reenactment of what happened, it would go a long way toward eliminating my doubts.

I acknowledge that others here on WS think it does make sense. I see logical arguments on both sides.

My point is, though, that I dislike even using the term "sides." This isn't a football game. We can all agree that someone's child died a horrible death. And we can all agree that we'd like to be absolutely sure of what happened.

So I'm grateful for the civil discourse.

And sorry for the ramble. /soapbox :blushing:

ETA: You're welcome for the link!

BBM

The DNA testing of a speck of blood on the gymnasium wall, 50 feet from where a Lowndes High School student’s body was discovered, was one of many time-consuming steps authorities took to complete the four-month probe, all of which culminated Thursday into a completed autopsy and a timeline of the event surrounding the final hours of the life of Kendrick Johnson, 17.

DNA testing confirmed the blood did not belong to Johnson and the autopsy report was subsequently released this week by the Georgia Bureau of Investigation.

and

“We found bloody Kleenex in one of the bathrooms and traced them to one of the flag girls who got hurt during practice, but we have them tested to make sure and it was female DNA,” she said.

http://valdostadailytimes.com/local/x6223544/Timeline-of-a-tragedy

 

[vlpate]

A lot of the kids stored their shoes and things in the mats because they didn't have lockers - I would hope this is a practice that is banned going forward. It had to be a horrific way to die. Having asthma and knowing what it's like not to be able to breathe and then the panic sets in - poor kid.

I have done the same thing.. infact when i read this thread i started panacking !
When i around 12 i had gone to an indoor play centre and they had a foam tube that id gone into head first ( generally being silly i had the intention of standing up with it over my head to make my siblings laugh!)

I got stuck and i could not for the life of me get out. My legs had left the floor and i couldnt shout for help qs my shouts were muffled.. thank god a parent saw me !
It was taken away from the centre floor by staff ..and ive been scared of small spaces ever since

Poor boy..

 

[gxm]

I totally understand, being a stickler for sources myself.

It's in the crime lab report.

Page 4: "There was visible dried blood on Johnson's arms, face, and chest."

This isn't new news, but I find it extremely interesting that he says the initial walkthrough was at 1125 hours and the next time noted is the coroner's arrival at 1600 hours.

What exactly was taking place during that 5-hour period?

http://www.news4jax.com/blob/view/-...Crime-lab-report-in-Kendrick-Johnson-case.pdf

BBM

“Our investigators spent hours at the scene processing evidence.”

“Every fingernail in that gym was collected,” said Prine.

According to Edwards, the investigation at the scene took so long because they wanted to ensure that nothing was overlooked. She said the school allowed the mother and relatives to have a room in the board of education building while the scene was processed.


http://valdostadailytimes.com/local/x6223544/Timeline-of-a-tragedy

 

[FrayedKnot]

BBM

“Our investigators spent hours at the scene processing evidence.”

“Every fingernail in that gym was collected,” said Prine.

According to Edwards, the investigation at the scene took so long because they wanted to ensure that nothing was overlooked. She said the school allowed the mother and relatives to have a room in the board of education building while the scene was processed.


http://valdostadailytimes.com/local/x6223544/Timeline-of-a-tragedy

But regardless of the time it took the LCSD to process the scene, they were required by law to notify the coroner immediately. So why the delay!

 

[vlpate]

This sort of photograph is provocative, but I do not consider it as good evidence. It reminds me of when Johnnie Cochrane Jr. had OJ try on a (/one of his own) gloves, saying "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit."

Ebony is not known for unbiased coverage. Recently they did a story on this case titling it "Has Kendrick Johnson's Murder Been Solved?"

Now, we've learned that private investigator Beau Webster claims to have solved the teen's murder—and he's naming names.

Another interview with Beau Webster. He repeats his nonsense about his "investigation" into the KJ case but doesn't seem to know the basics of a crime scene investigation. He is speaking with crime author Fred Rosen. It doesn't matter how full of bull he is, the story will surely take on a life of it's own and become gospel within a week.

Unfortunately, as has been the case many times in the past - MSM is not reporting what is actually going on. Leigh Touchton, a retired NAACP President and current Lead Investigator of Valdosta SLCC, wrote a letter to the Director of NAN after doing a lengthy and thorough investigation into this case. Since I can't source the letter and MSN hasn't picked it up, you will have to google Leigh Touchton + Kendrick Johnson.

Her letter explains why this case continues to go on and on when it was just a freak accident. Here's a simple question to ask oneself - why, if the second autopsy was done in June, and attorney CB King had a copy of the results in July, did they wait to make finding newspaper instead of organs in Kendrick's body a major incident only days after a new and famed attorney joined the case? Four months to "break" this news, really? My answer, for attention. It seems the cases that need hype and major drama to get noticed were usually not plausible cases to begin with.

Speaking of MSN: In September Anderson Cooper introduced reporter Victor Blackwell who was reporting on the "exclusive" autopsy report CNN had obtained. Not once was the "newspaper" mentioned. Why not?

Kendrick was 5'10" and weighed 160 - his father looks rather larger than that trying to get into the mat. JMO

 

[Karmady]

But regardless of the time it took the LCSD to process the scene, they were required by law to notify the coroner immediately. So why the delay!

from the article:

By law, someone from the sheriff’s office should have contacted Lowndes County Coroner Bill Watson when they learned of Johnson’s body so that a declaration of death could be made, and Prine acknowledged that they should have done so. However, fearing a leak to the media and understanding that there was little the coroner could do until investigators secured all of the evidence and reached Johnson’s body, Prine waited to call Watson.

“It’s been kind of an understanding with all of the coroners from the surrounding counties,” said Prine. “Rather than sitting there in the parking lot waiting for us to finish, you just call them when you get to the body. And I swear to you— no law-enforcement officer touched that body until the coroner got there and examined it.”

 

[Karmady]

Yes, I read that too. But under GA law they are supposed to call the coroner immediately.

Also I wonder why he would have to sit in the parking lot? Surely he/she would have the authority to enter the crime scene. ETA: Not asking you, just jumping off.

I'm guessing he'd rather sit in the car and do whatever than sit around a crime scene investigation doing the same thing. I imagine the coroner has very little interest in the actual investigation other than examining the body.

jmo

 

[vlpate]

Yes, I read that too. But under GA law they are supposed to call the coroner immediately.

Also I wonder why he would have to sit in the parking lot? Surely he/she would have the authority to enter the crime scene. ETA: Not asking you, just jumping off.

I'm not seeing "immediately", but I do know Prine acknowledged he should have contacted the coroner sooner.

I just don't see anything nefarious here or how the delayed call changes anything. There was a ten minute window of opportunity for KJ to have an accident or for someone with super hero abilities to kill him and stuff him down into the mat and then leave the old gym without being seen on the entrance/exit video cameras.

He was going to get his good shoes from the mat where he kept them because he didn't have a locker - a lot of the kids did the same thing.

Had KJ never gone to the gym and had no reason to be retrieving something from those mats, I might think differently. It was his routine, so...

 

[vlpate]

I'm guessing he'd rather sit in the car and do whatever than sit around a crime scene investigation doing the same thing. I imagine the coroner has very little interest in the actual investigation other than examining the body.

jmo

Some have no interest in examining the body.

 

[pearl]

The cover-up... Twisting... Case of the girl raped with a pool cue occurred in the area in which I live...

It really opened my eyes to the level of deceit/CYA that our officials will stoop to to avoid responsibility of "deeds"...

The Steubenville case is another one which I am following... And have found that there is corruption in EVERY field/profession/etc....

so... I continue to follow investigations which do not meet the standards I feel should be carried out by officials...

All JMO...

bbm
Do you know if there is a forum on Websleuths for this case?

 

[iSleuth]

I'm not seeing "immediately", but I do know Prine acknowledged he should have contacted the coroner sooner.

I just don't see anything nefarious here or how the delayed call changes anything. There was a ten minute window of opportunity for KJ to have an accident or for someone with super hero abilities to kill him and stuff him down into the mat and then leave the old gym without being seen on the entrance/exit video cameras.

He was going to get his good shoes from the mat where he kept them because he didn't have a locker - a lot of the kids did the same thing.

Had KJ never gone to the gym and had no reason to be retrieving something from those mats, I might think differently. It was his routine, so...

There was ample time for something to happen. An assault or an accident. There was time for someone to remove him from that location for sure. And yes return him later - after all the activities in the old gym that day. Maybe he was terminally injured, dying. ??? Already that person violated alot of rules, laws, codes- anyway. BUt so many laws had already beenbroken..the mats stored in that position...not returned to a safe position.

I can absolutely see - I am sorry- people ( read teachers, coaches, admin- students!!) ( people who can't speak for themselves- as the official said) covering it up. staging things :-(

My hubby saw the photos, and he has seen alot of not good things- his dad was kidnapped and murdered. He was absolutely shocked by this case and photos and one thing he said was KJ looked worse after less than 24 hours in that mat than his father did after 3 weeks buried in the sand in Central America. :-( harsh and sad but that's what he shared with me.
poor Kendrick!

 

[BeginnersLuck]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7633617.stm

"We have been designed over a million years to try and control blood pressure in terms of gravity from the top to the bottom. We can all cope in the short term but eventually when the blood starts pooling in the lungs and the head problems occur."
And these problems are bad. In the lungs, the risk is of a pulmonary oedema.
"Fluid will start to ease out of the blood vessels, you can't easily get oxygen, the lungs become rather stiff and you get breathless," says Professor Grossman.
"You might be able to breathe a bit faster but I doubt if that's going to work for more than a few hours before you get exhausted."
But as bad as this fluid on the lungs is, there is a more catastrophic danger for the upside down publicity seeker. The pooling of blood in the brain can cause death.

There is more explanation in the article of what happens to the body when you are upside down for to long. In addition I found many other horrid articles on the internet of deaths that occurred from being upside down for to long.

The photo that the parents circulated of the way Kendrick's faced looked is not surprising to me. The blood and fluids pool in the chest and head. It becomes very difficult to breath. Not only was Kendrick upside down, he was also constricted by the mat and lack of oxygen in the mat. IMO, this would speed up the process of death. The heart also pumps faster in the upside down position. If you add panic to that it's even worse.

People that train to be in the upside down position are advised to only do it for a few minutes at a time to start. You can pass out, your chest cavity fills with fluid and can cause asphyxiation, blood clots can form and you can have a stroke. It's not surprising to me that his face was swollen if all the fluids settled in the head. The build up of fluids caused hemorrhaging.

After all this time, the parents should know what happens to a body in a prolonged upside down position. The parents should know, that it is not unusual to discard organs and pack the body after autopsy.

I think Kendrick reached and reached to get his shoes and got stuck. He was determined to get his shoes and that was the only plausible way he could think of, considering the mat was buried behind other mats. He was probably in a hurry and didn't really think about asking for help or maybe didn't want to get yelled at?

The death scene was tampered with when the gym teacher understandably tried to free Kendrick. I can picture the panic the teacher must have felt when he rushed to free him. I'm sure things in the area were quickly tossed everywhere.

 

[alreetlike]

Wow, I remember reading about this case months ago when I was just browsing without having signed up, and thinking it was really bizarre. I had no idea there were still discussions going on.

I think it was, unfortunately, a very unusual accident.