GA - Kendrick Johnson, 17, Suspicious Death, Jan. 10/11, 2013, #2

[raeann]

If that video doesn't convince someone how quickly this can become a deadly situation, nothing will. I don't understand why these kids never just unroll the mats. What are they secured with, anyone know?

Most of them have velcro straps....some have canvas/cloth ties.....

 

[x_files]

I don't know. Really. I can think of cases where things were declared an accident and then found to be a murder. Just had the one of the man who killed his wife and had it not been for her family pushing and pushing, He would still be free. I just don't know. I will have to see good evidence of accident.

Drew Peterson case comes to mind! Cases can be re-opened years later especially when new evidence comes to light.

 

[vlpate]

Haven't posted in a while, but I thought I'd jump in with shoulder measurements. I had a friend measure my shoulder span with my arms at my sides, both raised, and one raised. My span with arms down was 16 in, both up 13 in, and one up about 14.5.

Thanks for taking the time to do this :seeya: With the give of the foam, the opening could reasonably reach 16", right?

 

[vlpate]

Most of them have velcro straps....some have canvas/cloth ties.....

Well why not just open the mat??? Are kids really that dense??

 

[vlpate]

The impracticality of him getting in there himself thinking he had a way out, The Bruising on the neck. The circumstances of death.

Thanks for answering

 

[Salem]

I'm not sure if you've seen this video or not. Right around 1:00 in the video she really is starting to panic. She states that she's about to fall through down further in the mat, even though she is stuck and they can't pull her out.

cheerleading sleep over at destiny - YouTube

Also, I have posted two different links previously that pertained to procedures at autopsy. Disposing of the organs in routine under certain circumstances. Both links said that either the organs are placed in a bag and put back in the body, or they are disposed of and the body is packed with some kind of material. Both links came from medical examiner sites. I think the organs are disposed of at times due to various circumstances. Decomp being one and I also wonder if it can have anything to do with them being replaced in the body in a bag and how that effects embalming and odor.

I did see the video, thanks. Also, I saw your comments about the organs earlier. I don't dispute what you are saying. In fact, it makes sense to me. My concern is that neither the GBI or the Funeral Home are taking responsibility. Maybe that is because someone used newspaper instead of the proper filling? I don't know but my hinky meter always goes on alert when "officials" deny their responsibility. I use the term "officials" loosely here because we don't know who's responsibility it was.

Salem

 

[Salem]

Any theories on the organs? Not having them didn't inhibit either of the autopsies...the actual organs were autopsied by GBI and slides (tissue, etc) were used in the second (pretty typical). What would they have found if they had the actual organs that might indicate coverup that the external exams and tox screens would not have caught?

The discrepancy in the autopsies is why I'd like to see a coroner's inquest, to put it to rest, one way or the other. However, blunt force trauma does not equal murder, even if not self-inflicted. Had he been in a fight or had an injury in the days or weeks before the accident, there might still be signs of trauma. (link up thread)

As for gravity, with all due respect, he would not have remained suspended dead weight forever, gravity would definitely have taken him down once he lost consciousness and his entire body relaxed. Besides his shoulders, the only other obstacle would have been his hips...14" at the most wide? I don't know, just a guess.
JMO

One theory about the organs is that no one wants to take responsibility because they know they didn't follow proper procedure and use the correct products. That may be my only theory at this point It just seems so odd to me and it is made even odder that it was not explained to the family.

As for the autopsies, I think the failure to properly take care of the organs is fodder for a conspiracy theory. It could be perfectly explainable but the whole discussion is damaged now because there were lies to cover it up, kwim? If they (whoever did the stuffing) would have just admitted and explained it, the whole issue would have gone away right then and there. Well... there probably would have still been some talk, but for the most part, it would have been accepted that someone didn't do their job right (or whatever the explanation was). Maybe they were out of the correct product to use and all they had was the newspaper and they wanted to get KJ to the funeral home and released back to his family. A reasonable explanation, overall but one that is less likely to be accepted now that it appears there was a cover up.

Compound this with the blurry video. The only blurry camera is the one on the mats. It has a bit of a snowball effect, kwim? Reasonable explanation that the camera was hit by a ball and it just was not reset/adjusted. That's reasonable, depending on the length of time that elapsed, but when added to the organ issue, it is not readily believable.

Salem

PS - I don't think there is a conspiracy but I can see how such thinking is coming about.

 

[vlpate]

I really do hope the coroner's inquest goes forward. For one I've never witnessed one, and two, to get to see a review of both autopsies.

The GBI autopsy was peer reviewed, but Anderson's was not....according to this:

Dr. Anderson's autopsy was not peer reviewed, unlike that of the GBI medical examiner, Dr. Maryanne Gaffney-Kraft. The lack of professional reputation, as well as a communication to Valdosta Today in which Dr. Anderson absolutely made it clear that he does not understand positional asphyxia and does not know the correct diagnosis of such, inclines me to disbelieve his findings. Additionally, the blunt force trauma diagnosis was nebulous, "very very likely intentional" and yet he did not find any signs of defensive wounds on the child's arms, nor bruises to indicate that the body had been moved after death.

 

[Salem]

That appears to be some random person giving their opinion?

Salem

ETA: Touchton is a civil rights investigator, not a crime investigator. While it sounds like she did a thorough job as far as civil rights go, I would prefer to hear from LE and the Feds as to the crime investigation.

 

[vlpate]

One theory about the organs is that no one wants to take responsibility because they know they didn't follow proper procedure and use the correct products. That may be my only theory at this point It just seems so odd to me and it is made even odder that it was not explained to the family.

As for the autopsies, I think the failure to properly take care of the organs is fodder for a conspiracy theory. It could be perfectly explainable but the whole discussion is damaged now because there were lies to cover it up, kwim? If they (whoever did the stuffing) would have just admitted and explained it, the whole issue would have gone away right then and there. Well... there probably would have still been some talk, but for the most part, it would have been accepted that someone didn't do their job right (or whatever the explanation was). Maybe they were out of the correct product to use and all they had was the newspaper and they wanted to get KJ to the funeral home and released back to his family. A reasonable explanation, overall but one that is less likely to be accepted now that it appears there was a cover up.

Compound this with the blurry video. The only blurry camera is the one on the mats. It has a bit of a snowball effect, kwim? Reasonable explanation that the camera was hit by a ball and it just was not reset/adjusted. That's reasonable, depending on the length of time that elapsed, but when added to the organ issue, it is not readily believable.

Salem

PS - I don't think there is a conspiracy but I can see how such thinking is coming about.

I do think the funeral home finally took responsibility for the newspaper ... I'll see if I can find that again. I found the timing of this information suspect - it was not news in October, it was news in June, so, why the five month shock-and-awe delay?

I do agree, while it may not be a conspiracy or cover up, it could certainly be (and is), perceived as such - and IMO, all by design. I don't think the blurry camera was a surprise to anyone on the legal team or the many law enforcement officials who have already viewed it. If there had been anything visible on the cameras, as regards those mats, it would have eliminated about four months of investigation - case closed.

Connections and leaks over a period of 10 months? I have to believe the legal team knew the video was blurred but timed it's release for maximum effect. I mean, did any of us think we were about to see a child being stuffed into mats or crawling in on his own? Blurry or otherwise?

By design IMO

 

[vlpate]

That appears to be some random person giving their opinion?

Salem

ETA: Touchton is a civil rights investigator, not a crime investigator. While it sounds like she did a thorough job as far as civil rights go, I would prefer to hear from LE and the Feds as to the crime investigation.

Information on whether or not an autopsy is peer reviewed doesn't really fit into a criminal or civil rights investigation...does it? I think it is just an opinion she gave based on her research, something any of us could find were we of a mind to.

<snipped not necessary>

AFAIK, there is no criminal investigation at this point, just an accidental death investigation being reviewed by the US Attorney. :twocents:

eta Leigh Touchton's interview on Valdosta Today

 

[vlpate]

Harrington Funeral home justifies use of newspaper

In addition to addressing the issue of the deceased's organs, Copeland's earlier written statement on behalf of Harrington Funeral Home justifies its use of newspaper to stuff Johnson's body, saying it is in conformity with burial protocol.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Well why not just open the mat??? Are kids really that dense??

Wait, what? I think I am experiencing some cognitive dissonance here.

Not directed at you, just jumping off from your post.

I and other posters have expressed incredulity at the official theory that KJ was reaching down for a shoe from a height that one iota of common sense would have told him he could not reach the shoe from.

So, good question, why didn't he just open the mat?

 

[Salem]

Information on whether or not an autopsy is peer reviewed doesn't really fit into a criminal or civil rights investigation...does it? I think it is just an opinion she gave based on her research, something any of us could find were we of a mind to.

Respectfully, she's hardly "some random person giving her opinion", (which would likely insult just about anybody), she put a lot of hard work into researching this case and meeting with the lawyers for the Johnsons and civil rights leaders - even buying the entire case file so she would be knowledgeable. As a respected president of the NAACP for 10 years...she's earned some respect, IMO.

AFAIK, there is no criminal investigation at this point, just an accidental death investigation being reviewed by the US Attorney. :twocents:

eta Leigh Touchton's interview on Valdosta Today

Oh.. sorry for not being clear. When I said it looked like a random person, I was not talking about Touchton, I was talking about the person that posted the "bug" spot. I think the initials were MH? Maybe?

Salem

 

[Salem]

Wait, what? I think I am experiencing some cognitive dissonance here.

Not directed at you, just jumping off from your post.

I and other posters have expressed incredulity at the official theory that KJ was reaching down for a shoe from a height that one iota of common sense would have told him he could not reach the shoe from.

So, good question, why didn't he just open the mat?

I'm not vlpate, but this question wasn't about KJ, at least the way I understood it. It was about the girl at the cheerleader sleepover who was stuck and panicking and the other girls didn't think to undo the velcro or ties. Not about KJ.

Salem

 

[al66pine]

Funeral Home Owner’s Letter re ‘Missing Organs’
Short Version
Funeral home owner said he never got the missing organs (did not get them in January, following autopsy #1)

Long Version:
Early Oct. from the cnn.com link upthread:
"Two entities had custody of Kendrick Johnson's body after his death -- the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, which conducted the first autopsy in January; and the Harrington Funeral Home in Valdosta, which handled the teen's embalming and burial.
GBI spokeswoman Sherry Lang told CNN that after the autopsy, "the organs were placed in Johnson's body, the body was closed, then the body was released to the funeral home." That's normal practice, Lang said. BBM

“The funeral home would not comment to CNN. But in a letter to the Johnsons' attorney, funeral home owner Antonio Harrington said his firm never received the teen's organs.” BBM

F/H owner said he never received them.
He then makes stmts about what happened to the organs.
How would he know who disposed of them or why?

Did someone preceding F/H owner in the chain of custody of the remains,
write a note and put it in w. the remains, like this???:
"In case anyone wonders where the organs are, we disposed of them."
ME name & siggy

I suspect a pathologist or ME disposing of organs makes notes in the chart or records (I could be wrong).

Also, funeral home owner's letter offers two explanations, that seem contradictory, IMO.

“Harrington wrote that the organs "were destroyed through natural process" due to the position of Kendrick Johnson's body when he died, and "discarded by the prosector before the body was sent back to Valdosta." A prosector dissects the body for pathological examination." BBM

JM:twocents:

 

[vlpate]

Wait, what? I think I am experiencing some cognitive dissonance here.

Not directed at you, just jumping off from your post.

I and other posters have expressed incredulity at the official theory that KJ was reaching down for a shoe from a height that one iota of common sense would have told him he could not reach the shoe from.

So, good question, why didn't he just open the mat?

KJ's mat was in the middle of a bunch of other very heavy mats, for one, for two, he didn't have time, and three, he is apparently of the same mindset all the other mat dwelling teenagers we have seen - maybe wouldn't occur to him?

When the mat is in the middle of the floor, as was the one I commented on originally, it really makes no sense not to open it.

 

[vlpate]

Oh.. sorry for not being clear. When I said it looked like a random person, I was not talking about Touchton, I was talking about the person that posted the "bug" spot. I think the initials were MH? Maybe?

Salem

Ah, gotcha - :truce:

 

[al66pine]

Expanding on vlpate's post several notches upthread, and updating from a cbsnews link.

Nov. 5th article http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57610769-504083/kendrick-johnson-update-ga-sec-of-state-investigating-funeral-home-that-handled-teens-remains-after-gym-mat-death/

"Despite some media reports that only two entities had custody of Kendrick's body after his death, Crimesider has confirmed at least four entities - the Valdosta-Lowndes Regional Crime Laboratory, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation (GBI), a third-party transport company, and the Harrington Funeral Home - handled the teen's body.
Crimesider reached three of these entities and received some conflicting accounts. The company that transported Johnson's body did not respond to multiple requests for an interview." BBM

 

[mayelf]

I didn't have time to read all comments, just joining in the conversation. So excuse me in advance if all of this has been talked about in length which I am sure it has.

Two things I don't get. Well maybe a little more than that.

I just don't see anyone going head first to try and grab something in a mat. Most the videos earlier posted show the kids going feet first, which makes more sense. It seems more plausible that someone was trying to dispose of a body really quick and they picked the first spot they saw and head first seems like the easiest way to put a body in a mat or unrolling and rolling up - which really doesn't take that long. I think it would be faster to unroll and roll up for a one person job and roll/scoot the mat into position.
It is kind of like the photo of his father showing how hard it is to get into a mat which looks tough so imagine how tough it would be to try and get into a mat when it is vertical - head first.

The other thing I don't get is why he would have lost his shoe in the mat in the first place. I could see again, someone disposing of a body putting in loose belongings first or last. Looking at a shoe in a photo next to the mats it looks pretty hard to have a shoe go in. I wonder how hard it is to accidentally drop a shoe in one? If I was getting my shoe I would just tilt and lift the bloody thing. And there are some reports that this shoe didn't even belong to him. His own shoes were on top of him off his feet.

Where was his backpack located?

From this link http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2013/10/09/ac360-exclusive-what-really-happened-to-kendrick-johnson/
after watching the video, why would there be blood under his shoe, on the walls, on some stray shoe it appears that never was collected?

Also in one of the photos of him stuck in the mat in the video, why does he have shoes on top of him, two shoes, if he was trying to reach a shoe? It just is so bizarre. His socks also look pretty tight like he hasn't been struggling to move his feet around.

I wonder if there are rooms through the gym that someone could have hid someone until the gym cleared out for the day. Wasn't his body discovered the next day? So that is almost 24 hours they had to cover this up if someone was involved. I just don't see how it could be an accident. I guess weird accidents happen all the time but just seems too bizarre.