GA GA - Shirley, 87, & Russell Dermond, 88, Putnam Co, 2 May 2014 - #13

[Cedars]

Sills says, regrettably, they didn't use their cellphones very often. Russell's feet drag from the side garage door to the area where his body is ultimately found. Also from what I understand Sills has indicated Russell's body was placed against one of the cars at some point before its in the final position it's found in. To me that Indicates he was probably dead and slumped against the car while they tended to Shirley. They came back for the decapitation imo. I also don't believe they arrived with a boat nor did they leave via boat. That draws way too much attention. People notice boats docking there's just no way in hell anyone who is that calculating is going to risk coming in on a boat, that's like something out of a movie. That doesn't mean they didn't use a boat to dispose of Shirley, because they most certainly did and most likely did and at night imo.

I wish there was footage approaching the house by water, to see how exposed or private it might have been.

For eg, did a neighbour's house have a view that included the Dermond's dock? Then it would have been very likely a boat would be noticed.

Since Shirley was, at some point, in a boat, are there many other boat launches where the killer(s) would be more confident they wouldn't be seen? Especially since they'd also be at that 2nd site with their vehicle?

Would they have been driving around towing a boat (like Scott Peterson)? Or did they have somewhere that they could leave a boat? Either the killer(s) had their own waterfront property (unlikely, IMO), or they used a public boat launch.

And while there were apparently no security cameras in 2004 to catch Peterson launching his boat, I think it's more likely there were at Lake Ocanee boat launches in 2014. That's precisely the decade when security cameras became cheap and ubiquitous.

I feel confident police would have checked boat launch sites/footage for the day or two immediately after the murders, and fortunately footage, if recorded, was likely still available.

In any case, although police scoured the region for signs of a crime scene outside the home, perhaps Shirley's assault happened in a vehicle or boat, that was later disposed of.

JMO

 

[Rational_Geographic]

A few more questions that come to mind for the time being,

Has anyone heard anything about the rumor of a deep scrape in the walkway leading to the Dermond's boat dock? Sills maybe thought could have been caused perhaps by a weighted down wheelbarrow?

I cannot stress how much of a "red herring" I believe the whole lake/boat involvement theory is in terms of the killer's arrival/departure to/from the Dermond's property (although a boat was obviously used to dispose of Shirley's body.) But if there's actually proof someone was by the dock area I guess I would have to accept it. However this is something that goes against what SS has said in the past about there being no evidence the killers or Shirley had been by the dock that day.

Until this scrape info is confirmed, I digress. I'm actually starting to go even further in the other direction, in fact. I'm considering wether the killer initially arrived at the Dermond's property "on foot" and then had a vehicle placed somewhere offsite, at another location where (after the Dermonds were murdered and things went awry) they were then able to walk a short distance through wooded areas maybe, get inside their vehicle and drive back to retrieve Shirley's body?

Oh here's my other question. So. Idk about you guys but to me, the Friday going into Saturday of the annual Kentucky Derby is probably just about the dumbest time to decide to kill someone in the circumstances the Dermonds were killed in. And yet... So to me that says there was either a window of opportunity or perhaps a time constraint of some sort the killer had in mind or was working with when doing this (imo.) It could be something specific to and thus privy only to the killer, therefore impossible for us to know at this stage ie they were leaving the country or in some extreme example lets say they had a terminal illness (I know very unlikely but it works for illustrative purposes.) But what if it's not something along those lines? What if there's something else that is known about the general area in May of 2014 as to why the killer chose Friday/early Saturday as the perfect time to carry this henious act out? Is anyone here who may be local that might be able to shed light on this? I was thinking maybe there's a rule that contractors and lawncare workers are not allowed to work on the properties at Great Waters on Saturday/Sunday mornings? Is that a thing does anyone know?

 

[Rational_Geographic]

I wish there was footage approaching the house by water, to see how exposed or private it might have been.

For eg, did a neighbour's house have a view that included the Dermond's dock? Then it would have been very likely a boat would be noticed.

Since Shirley was, at some point, in a boat, are there many other boat launches where the killer(s) would be more confident they wouldn't be seen? Especially since they'd also be at that 2nd site with their vehicle?

Would they have been driving around towing a boat (like Scott Peterson)? Or did they have somewhere that they could leave a boat? Either the killer(s) had their own waterfront property (unlikely, IMO), or they used a public boat launch.

And while there were apparently no security cameras in 2004 to catch Peterson launching his boat, I think it's more likely there were at Lake Ocanee boat launches in 2014. That's precisely the decade when security cameras became cheap and ubiquitous.

I feel confident police would have checked boat launch sites/footage for the day or two immediately after the murders, and fortunately footage, if recorded, was likely still available.

In any case, although police scoured the region for signs of a crime scene outside the home, perhaps Shirley's assault happened in a vehicle or boat, that was later disposed of.

JMO

Yes I have considered that SD and RD were both assaulted and murdered in a vehicle parked in the Dermond's driveway. That actually does work with everything. That's a good thought.

The parts I struggle with is that despite SS attempting to insult and perhaps provoke/razz the killer by suggesting that they are amateurs, I personally believe that the killer(s) while surely are undeniably cowardly, at some point you have to come to terms with the fact that they pulled off a pretty impressive feat in terms of covering their tracks. Even though they appear to have encountered some turbulence they still managed to do some things that seem almost impossible. I hate to even talk about it in those terms because what they did is absolutely awful. However for them to exercise the restraint and patience they apparently did, I think of why someone would go through all that but then they're just going to park a vehicle in the Dermond's driveway or a dock a boat for any extended period and draw all this attention to themselves smashing SD with a hammer and possibly shooting Russell? Its very hard to reconcile. But hey something obviously happened so maybe!

 

[Cedars]

Yes I have considered that SD and RD were both assaulted and murdered in a vehicle parked in the Dermond's driveway. That actually does work with everything. That's a good thought.

The parts I struggle with is that despite SS attempting to insult and perhaps provoke/razz the killer by suggesting that they are amateurs, I personally believe that the killer(s) while surely are undeniably cowardly, at some point you have to come to terms with the fact that they pulled off a pretty impressive feat in terms of covering their tracks. Even though they appear to have encountered some turbulence they still managed to do some things that seem almost impossible. I hate to even talk about it in those terms because what they did is absolutely awful. However for them to exercise the restraint and patience they apparently did, I think of why someone would go through all that but then they're just going to park a vehicle in the Dermond's driveway or a dock a boat for any extended period and draw all this attention to themselves smashing SD with a hammer and possibly shooting Russell? Its very hard to reconcile. But hey something obviously happened so maybe!

I agree, they went to a lot of trouble, and didn't make any big mistakes that lead them to being caught. That's true of more intelligent, sophisticated murderers -

I am particularly puzzled why there was so much effort to make Shirley go missing. There is no apparent reason or necessity for them to do this. Why not leave her in the home with Russell?

Was it all about DNA? Was there a fear she had the killer's DNA on her? ie the killer touched her/she touched the killer. And yet the killer felt confident Russell's torso didn't have DNA.

One thing I just realized is that, her being missing would actually delay settling the estate by several years - so that might argue against the theory that it was motivated by desire to inherit quickly.

JMO

 

[Rational_Geographic]

I agree, they went to a lot of trouble, and didn't make any big mistakes that lead them to being caught. That's true of more intelligent, sophisticated murderers -

I am particularly puzzled why there was so much effort to make Shirley go missing. There is no apparent reason or necessity for them to do this. Why not leave her in the home with Russell?

Was it all about DNA? Was there a fear she had the killer's DNA on her? ie the killer touched her/she touched the killer. And yet the killer felt confident Russell's torso didn't have DNA.

One thing I just realized is that, her being missing would actually delay settling the estate by several years - so that might argue against the theory that it was motivated by desire to inherit quickly.

JMO

My theory is that the og plan was just to kill the Dermonds immediately outside the home with basic effort, using a weapon like a hammer or even more primitive, like a treebranch and leave their bodies to be found on the property or wherever. Quick in and out, there and gone, nothing fancy, don't touch anything or get comfortable. It may have been as simple as "to see if they could do it." I know how that sounds and while people don't like that, also, equally absurd is the idea that 11 years later there hasn't been a single reason brought forth from friends or family or anyone in the community regarding who would have done this. That should not be the case if there's some deep connection between the killer/killers and the elderly couple. 11 friggin years we're talking.

So after things didn't go as planned and the "need" (wether real or perceived) arose from the killer to remove Russell's head (wether DNA from biting or kneejerk shooting/bullet lodged) all of a sudden things become more complicated. You then have two collapsed bodies that you have to do something with while you figure out what to do to remove that head. What if the vehicle that the killer/killers have at their disposal is not big enough for two bodies, or Russell's head wound is gushing blood and it's decidedly not practical to have both him and Shirley together in a transport situation? Russell is for the time being dragged into the garage and towels stuffed under the door. They take Shirley (I personally feel land vehicle) to a place where they can prep her body with weights to be disposed of later at night in the lake. This would also be when they secured the proper tools to later return to the Dermond garage and behead Russell, which they obviously did later at night also hence the lamp that was utilized from the home.

 

[Rational_Geographic]

Alternatively I've also wondered if maybe instead of leaving them for dead outside their home to be found, perhaps the plan was always to dispose both of the Dermonds in Lake Oconee but they just couldn't with Russell at the time with Shirley because of the issue that arose with needing to remove Russ's head. Perhaps the plan after beheading was to likewise dump him in the lake but something happened afterwards? Like they felt they were running out of time? Or maybe they were not satisfied with how things went with Shirley and they said forget it. Alternatively maybe they just felt it was too cumbersome to transport Russ post beheading, with his blood and "decomp fluid" around town like they did with Shirley? Idk

 

[Rational_Geographic]

Something I take issue with somewhat is this claim by the investigation that the towels were placed under the garage door after the beheading. I would argue this was actually done beforehand to prevent the blood from Russells head wound from seeping under the door while the killer/killers tended to Shirley and the disposal of her body and they gathered the items they needed to remove Russell's head. It doesn't make sense that they would put the towels down after they decapitated Russel imo. For what? They're done. What does it matter if someone sees the body an hour later or days later? Also to support my argument, why if the killers were so concerned about delaying the finding of Russell's body would they leave the front door unlocked and back door open? I mean if you just take the extra time to lock all entrances, all things considered, you're talking potentially a delay of days and days later for discovery. That doesn't make sense. Not a big deal but I just felt they were not right about that aspect.

 

[concernedcitizen706]

Does anybody know what position Russell was found in in the garage? I think someone posted above, that he was drug in by his feet. So that means his head was close to the garage door. The blood would not have to run very far to get to the door, and usually the garage floor would be sloped to the outside. How did the perp get the garage door open from the outside? Did Russell open the garage door and run out the garage door? Did the perp walk through the open front door and thru house, after he shot Russell, and then opened the garage door, by pressing button? There were no traces of footprints or hairs or anything in the house from that?

 

[Valiant]

When you look at the subdivision from overhead on Google maps, the lake probably does provide a more private approach to the house. A boat parked at the dock would be less likely to be seen than a car in the driveway.
But since I'd bet a large number of the surrounding houses are second residences, I think either way (car or boat) it's no surprise that the method of transportation was not seen.
But what strikes me as really odd is why would all these extra steps be taken for a thrill kill or random murder? I think there is a definite connection between the victims and their killer because of all the steps apparently to hide evidence.

 

[Rational_Geographic]

When you look at the subdivision from overhead on Google maps, the lake probably does provide a more private approach to the house. A boat parked at the dock would be less likely to be seen than a car in the driveway.
But since I'd bet a large number of the surrounding houses are second residences, I think either way (car or boat) it's no surprise that the method of transportation was not seen.
But what strikes me as really odd is why would all these extra steps be taken for a thrill kill or random murder? I think there is a definite connection between the victims and their killer because of all the steps apparently to hide evidence.

My understanding is that for a place like Lake Oconee, the "front of your home is actually the side facing the water," as they say. So in other words, all of the windows in the home are positioned and intentionally designed to draw attention to the view of the lake. I do agree the Dermonds were targeted in part because their home is more secluded, which is definitely a clue but if you're a killer who is going to go to the extreme measures to hardly touch anything in their home (not even footprints were left behind), I think cruising in on a boat is unrealistic for the profile. The killer/killers clearly had access to a boat in which they used to dump Shirleys body at a later point. That doesn't necessarily mean they arrived to their home innit.

And yes I agree that the logic of "it must be someone personally scorned" to take all these extra measures and that much attention is sound logic, in the first few years. I'll say five years max. But after over twice that time (plus) the scales tip in the other direction. I'd now argue that coming up on the 11 year mark its actually MORE absurd for people to keep insisting the Dermonds killer had a deep personal connection to them and absolutely nobody knows about it. Everyone keeps saying they had no known enemies or beefs. I don't believe that because its not true of anyone, however with them, it at least appears that nobody can think of a recent beef that makes sense. Nobody's talking? After 11 years? As much as people don't want to explore it, there is actually a much stronger argument at this point the Dermond's killer/killers were randos who targeted then based on location.

I'm also starting to question wether the same killer who is going to take the time to wear something over their feet to avoid their footprints being detected and meticulously go out of their way to not touch anything in the home throughout this entire process, is going to leave any type of vehicle parked there for any amount of time wether it be a driveway or dock. I don't think so. This started out on foot, the more I think about it. But that doesn't mean there isn't a dock or a driveway (most likely) nearby that wasn't eventually utilized. The question is, how was SD's body transported to this location without being seen?

 

[Valiant]

Again, if you look at pictures of the property, a car in the driveway is going to be easy to see for anyone driving by (not that a whole lot of people drive by) while a boat either at their dock or not even ay the dock but somewhere in the cove) is going to be easier to hide. Boat traffic on the lake likely gets little attention. It's a somewhat secluded setting. Removing body by car and transferring it to a boat at a launch site adds a lot more visibility. Approaching on foot still requires a boat or vehicle stored near by and returned to the scene to remove bodies.

Just because a personal connection hasn't been established doesn't mean one does not exist. I don't think it's financial gain (or someone did an incredible job of covering their tracks). Revenge? People do carry grudges a long time that make little sense to anyone else.

 

[Rational_Geographic]

Again, if you look at pictures of the property, a car in the driveway is going to be easy to see for anyone driving by (not that a whole lot of people drive by) while a boat either at their dock or not even ay the dock but somewhere in the cove) is going to be easier to hide. Boat traffic on the lake likely gets little attention. It's a somewhat secluded setting. Removing body by car and transferring it to a boat at a launch site adds a lot more visibility. Approaching on foot still requires a boat or vehicle stored near by and returned to the scene to remove bodies.

Just because a personal connection hasn't been established doesn't mean one does not exist. I don't think it's financial gain (or someone did an incredible job of covering their tracks). Revenge? People do carry grudges a long time that make little sense to anyone else.

I'm not saying anything for certain one way or another. In fact as I said on my first post here, I do feel my theory will change over time, you can count on it. I hate to say it, because its such a cliche phrase but, "given the totality," of what we know, I just don't believe this killer used a vehicle when they arrived. That's not consistent with someone who went the lengths the killer did to not leave behind any evidence. A car or boat entering and parking dormant for any period on the morning of the weekend of the Kentucky Derby? I think they arrived on foot or something else. A boat right off the bat is far too flamboyant for this innocuous, meticulous killer imo.

I certainly understand and appreciate that people hold grudges for decades even sometimes. Not only that but sometimes people hold intense hatred for individuals and those individuals have absolutely no clue at all that someone passionately despises them. If this is the case with the Dermonds where someone had such deep hatred for Shirley and Russell then given the circumstances, it wasn't just the killers themselves who hated them, it was way more people than just that. I say that because if someone known to the Dermonds hated them, then they told someone they did. And those people who know they detested Shirley and Russell, they're apparently not talking.

 

[Cedars]

I certainly understand and appreciate that people hold grudges for decades even sometimes.

I'm mostly interested in the psychology of crime. IMO, every murderer believes they'll get something positive out of it.

So, revenge? It doesn't appear the Dermonds were living a super happy/enviable life, with lots of fun things to look forward to, with public accolades, bragging about their success. So I wonder: What kind of immense satisfaction does someone get from depriving them of a few more years of daily crosswords as they slide into decrepitude...?

IMO, revenge is a hot-blooded crime, as is thrill-seeking.

This, to me, was cold-blooded, ie where's the excitement in going to a bathroom and collecting towels to carefully put around your victim. What kind of victory dance do you do while carefully looping and relooping concrete blocks around a frail person's legs?

My sense is this was a fairly grim crime as it was carried out. My sense is the person/people felt justified, but were very preoccupied with not getting caught.

JMO

 

[concernedcitizen706]

You know I realized I actually never really knew too much what the front of the house looks like, because they always show the back of the house in the pictures, where the lake is. So I googled it and I found one small picture of the front. There is a lot of concrete driveway and walkway out front.

There is a little bit of tree cover on some of the driveway on the side there. I really don't think he was too concerned about parking there. I mean just judging by my house, and I live in a populated area, almost nobody drives past my house late at night. Now imagine who drives past their house at night. No one at all. I think they only have one house past them on the road, right?, and probably that house was vacant. So who is going to drive there? No one.


But if he really wanted to be careful, he could park at the REM lot next door under some trees. I don't know if they have a driveway there. Because otherwise he would drive in the dirt and leave some tire tracks. Hmm. Actually you know what I think he probably did, was just park right out front the REM lot on the road, like at the side of the road like normal. Because when you park on the road, no one knows who you are. When you park in a house lot, people start to pay attention a little more, because they wonder who the guest is. So if the REM lot had a driveway, I think he parked there. And if it didn't, I think he just parked on the road.

Would they have the tech ability to see if there were some new tire tracks in the driveway? Although I really wonder if it rained at that point, because if it did, I think that would erase the evidence.

 

[concernedcitizen706]

So looking at pic of the house from the front, I have a few more thoughts. I see they have that side screened in porch, next to the garage. Well it seems like RD was dragged into the garage, so I don't think he got too far from the garage. And all around there is concrete. So the closest exit to the garage is that side screened porch. So I think Russell probably ran out the side screen porch, down the steps, into the driveway. If he had gunpowder on his collar, that means the perp was shooting him from close behind. Now if he fell there, would there be blood on the driveway? Apparently they didn't find anything like that. I mean, if he fell face down, maybe not too much blood. And I do not believe the cadaver dogs had a hit of death anywhere, other than the garage. Because that's why they keep saying they don't have any evidence that he died there.

So I think what happened was, after he was shot and fell face down on the ground, he must have been quickly put into a container, like a semi-inflated inflatable rowboat, or quickly rolled and dragged and put on top of something, like a tarp or a piece of cardboard. Before he actually died. Because otherwise there would be a hit there where he fell, by a cadaver dog. I don't know how long someone can live with that kind of injury. But maybe 5 or 10 minutes.

Well he knows he's kind of out in the country, so he knows police are going to take at least 15 minutes to get there, if someone heard the gunshot and called the cops. So I think he quickly put the body in or on something, and quickly dragged it into the garage. So he probably ran back up the side steps and opened the garage door, then came out and dragged the body in. Closed the garage door. And then he waited for a while, probably in the house, before he did anything to the body. He also waited for a while to make sure no cops were coming. So he waited probably a few hours. So that there would be less bleeding.

Well apparently he was there the next day, during the day. He probably did a lot of cleaning the next day, that's why there's no footprints or such. So I would imagine, he would leave after dark, but not too late, and so he got his car from the road, and drove it down closer into the driveway, he walked Shirley out and put her in his car, and he drove out the subdivision.

Edit - Although the guy who drove by the next day, did not reportedly see a car parked there, I guess. Although police haven't told us specifically. So that would be a little hard to explain, if the guy did not see a car parked there. Hmm. I would need to figure out if the REM lot had a paved driveway or parking spot. I would think they did. And if they did, that's probably where he parked.

 

[concernedcitizen706]

I just checked the historical weather, and there was no rain there from May 2 until like the next Friday. So we can discount the idea that rain washed away all the evidence outside, before police got there, or even a few days after.

 

[concernedcitizen706]

Here's a picture of the front of the house, as in from the roadway, if you're curious. I saw a few others too, like one from Facebook.

See how the side screen door is close to the garage door. Also it looks like the perp may have been able to park his car to the left, facing the house, in driveway, and not really have people notice it, because of the semi tree cover there.

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[concernedcitizen706]

Again, if you look at pictures of the property, a car in the driveway is going to be easy to see for anyone driving by (not that a whole lot of people drive by) while a boat either at their dock or not even ay the dock but somewhere in the cove) is going to be easier to hide. Boat traffic on the lake likely gets little attention. It's a somewhat secluded setting. Removing body by car and transferring it to a boat at a launch site adds a lot more visibility. Approaching on foot still requires a boat or vehicle stored near by and returned to the scene to remove bodies.

Just because a personal connection hasn't been established doesn't mean one does not exist. I don't think it's financial gain (or someone did an incredible job of covering their tracks). Revenge? People do carry grudges a long time that make little sense to anyone else.

I don't know who drives over there. They're the next to last person at the end of their street and that other house was vacant. So pretty much no one drives there. I guess the only person that drove by there, was I guess the mail carrier the next day. If they park at night in the dark, no one is going to notice their car. Especially you can see on the left, that there's a little bit of tree cover, so that would help. I just think if a criminal is going to do a crime, he's going to want his car right next to him, to get the heck out of there if he needs to.

- now it would be interesting to know if the mail carrier noticed any car parked there. I'm assuming no, because that's probably why LE thinks they came by boat. That's why I think he might have had it there parked at night. And then during the day, he could park on the side of the road or in driveway of REM lot. There is no rain there during that time. I don't know if they have the technology to pick up tire tracks there? I'm not sure if that is definitive though.

 

[Rational_Geographic]

Riddle me this.. what if Sills is right, what if the perp indeed went to the Dermond's residence in search of something that they were not successful in their pursuit of and in the process (as a result) the Dermonds were brutally slain. But what if that "thing" they wanted was not a "thing," at all?

 

[K.jill]

Are you speculating not a thing but a person?