Gas Cans discovered by George Key date - June 24, 2008 ***REVISITED ***

[notthatsmart]

And since the cans were not exposed to the elements and kept in the shed....there are prints on the tape. Whoever put the tape on that can left prints behind. So LE knows who put the tape on the can. JMO

Ga said in his depo that the cans were returned with dust on them. So, I believe you are right that they did dust the cans for fingerprints. What I don't understand is what use it would be. We already know that GA, Tl and Kc handled the cans, so we would expect to find their finger prints, but not sure what that would mean or if it would help either side. Not sure why SA has not turned over that discovery or if they have the other piece of duct tape. If they have turned it over to the defense, but not the public, we may never see it. IMO

 

[logicalgirl]

I'm certainly no expert, NTS, and I gladly respect your right to a differing opinion. So, for clarification only, not to suggest I understand this nearly as well as you do...my opinion for this post is based solely on K9 alerts. So, insert as appropriate the statistical uncerrtainty associated w/ K9's. For my part perhaps I am willing to accept a lower standard of proof than most. IIRC, there is a thread on their capabilites if the discussion warrants digging deeper into that aspect.

So, with that being said, it is my humble understanding that K9 training & recurring certification is contingent upon successfully, repeatably alerting to known cadaver samples. Which is to say that the K9 alert is indicative of the presence of some, or many, species associated uniquely with human cadavers (e.g. mercaptans like cadaverene, putricene) and not solely with one specific compound as in the butyric acid example provided.

Anticipating why one might not have lab results in-hand that provide the lab-to-K9 transfer function... sample collection methods and laboratory techniques have practical limits below which they are unable to provide a statistically defensible result. IOW...a chemical species that a K9 alerts to may be present when a gas chromatograph (for example) may return a non-detectible result...such that they don't contradict one another, rather they have different thresholds above which they can provide a positive and repreatible response.

All of the above applies regardless of whether or not there was an attempted cleaning of the trunk by anyone.

ETA: My apologies for straying OT in n effort to clarify.

Wasn't the cleanup attempted by both Casey and Cindy done much later than the gas can incidents?

 

[It's Not the Nanny]

BJB - I think your gas can theory relating to K-9 hits in the back yard makes a lot of sense.

I have been perplexed as to why LE didn't analyze the inside of the vacuum and spot cleaner machines after they were taken with the search warrant. I believed all along that she tried to clean the stain and dumped the water in the back yard causing the cadaver dogs to alert.

Your theory makes a lot more sense and fits in with why they didn't feel the need to analyze the machines.

 

[LambChop]

Ga said in his depo that the cans were returned with dust on them. So, I believe you are right that they did dust the cans for fingerprints. What I don't understand is what use it would be. We already know that GA, Tl and Kc handled the cans, so we would expect to find their finger prints, but not sure what that would mean or if it would help either side. Not sure why SA has not turned over that discovery or if they have the other piece of duct tape. If they have turned it over to the defense, but not the public, we may never see it. IMO

The gas can with the tape was collected twice. Once initially in July and again in December. The picture is from the July collection. I believe SA still has the gas can as evidence. JMO

 

[Paintr]

...adding...

Considering the logistics of item placement in the trunk as illustrated (by Harmony2) in the "outline" thread, when one considers the size of the gas cans, its seems almost impossible for one of the gas cans not to have had at least a portion of its bottom sitting directly on top of the stain. IOW, if the blue crate wasn't in the stain, it took up enough space such that a gas can virtually had to be. Hope that makes sense.

George knows. Perhaps somehow he did raise this to LE and that detail hasn't been released...and to toss in a bit of wild speculation oke:...wouldn't that have made compelling testimony for the Grand Jury....(begin dream sequence), "Yes - the areas in my backyard where the K9s alerted are consistent with where I placed the gas cans immediately upon receiving them from my daughter 6/24 after she retrieved them from her trunk which the K9s also alerted on." (End dream sequence)

IMHO, decomp on gas cans - direct or indirect - will be SO important at trial. First, because it will be VERY easy for a jury to understand. Second, for the prosecution and the jury it relieves a HUGE -albeit not insurmountable - burden regarding the chain of custody of the Pontiac (read reasonable doubt opportunity) post-6/24 (read @ Amscot, towyard, etc.)

Repeating myself, but... Bless little Caylee...her very flesh is doing everything to speak to us about who is responsible for this injustice. What awesome power this little 2 year-old girl wielded. Makes me appreciate the work LE, SA, forensic scientists and, search groups like TES, do everyday all the more. Angels among us...every last one of'em. :thumb:

BBM I really would like to believe that GA was totally truthful and told everything he knew or suspected to the GJ, but I just can't seem to convince myself of that. I have the nagging suspicion that GA answered with the bare minimum that he could get away with and perhaps slanted the facts to save KC. Perhaps I am doing the man a disservice. I hope that I am.

 

[catnron]

Just curious, is there some new info for this topic to be brought up again? TIA

maybe no new info, but new thoughts, does that count?

 

[Tulessa]

maybe no new info, but new thoughts, does that count?

For those of us that were not Ws's when this thread was started, I thank whom ever brought it back to life.

 

[BondJamesBond]

RE: Thread
Tulessa,FWIW, This one is a close cousin to the, "Anthony Backyard", thread regarding today's discussion. You might find it interesting.

RE: Prints
FWIW, IMHO the checking for prints on the gas can would just be good practice. It wouldn't be expected to provide the "Aha!", but it could be a "Gotcha!" for EITHER the prosecution OR the defense if LE failed to check. Inculp vs. Exculp. Blah, blah, blah.

Say, hypothetically, that decomp was proven to have been on the cans at some point. IF LE didn't check for prints the defense would say LE was sloppy, rushed to judgement, etc. and missed the opportunity to ID the real killer. And that they have checked, the defense can argue if they are absent Casey's prints that supports her innocence. All of it leaves the prosecution to explain the result either way. For example, Casey - or any family member's - prints on the gas can wouldn't prove guilt. But a third-party's prints on the can...like Kronk or Grund...well...that be 'nother story wouldn't it, eh? Principally, for the prosecution getting the prints is to protect the credibility of the investigation, IMHO.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

bumping

With the "affair" bombshell we've been hit with, I've had this niggling thought/question.

Since GA has allegedly told the "mistress" that it was "an accident that snowballed outta control", that leads me to think either 1) it was just his "belief" with no knowledge or back up; or 2) he knows - and he knows all due to the "snowballing" comment. If he only knew that her death was an accident - how would he have known that "it snowballed outta countrol"?

If he knows than what does this do? If he helped physically - that's accessory. If he just had the knowledge - that's perjury.

So......if you are kinda following me here.........what exactly did happen the day KC "popped in" and kept GA away from the back of the car and "threw the f'in cans" at him?

I still say he got close enough to that car to have smelled it. That's why when he drove that car home - as much as it bothered/sickened him - he knew! I always thought that very strange that he didn't call LE right then and there at the tow yard. How did he not know that it could have been both his girls - why did he say to himself - don't let this be my Caylee?

 

[BondJamesBond]

How did he not know that it could have been both his girls - why did he say to himself - don't let this be my Caylee?

*snipped*
George knew it couldn,t be Casey because Cindy was in contact (even if it was increasingly via text) w/ Casey on a daily basis including earlier in the day on 7/15 when they picked up the Pontiac...and...George knew via the notice, etc. that the Pontiac had been impounded since 6/30. HTH.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

*snipped*
George knew it couldn,t be Casey because Cindy was in contact (even if it was increasingly via text) w/ Casey on a daily basis including earlier in the day on 7/15 when they picked up the Pontiac...and...George knew via the notice, etc. that the Pontiac had been impounded since 6/30. HTH.

bbm

yes I agree - although I also remember that GA had not personally spoke with KC - he was just hearing what CA was relating to him as far as contact. KC's purse was on the front seat. The car had been there since 6/30. CA was in full tilt that day trying to get a hold of KC and had probably relayed that to GA. So, at that time GA really didn't know what had happened (supposedly). Yet, as he's walking to the car he thinks to himself "don't let this be my Caylee" - not "what did KC do now?" - not "I hope my girlS are ok".

Nope, he goes straight to Caylee. Then when they opened that trunk - - never ever will I understand why he did not immediately call 911 and report it. Nope, what does he do? He throws the bag (well, the tow yard guy throws the bag out), opens the windows to "vent that thing". And then gets in it and DRIVES IT HOME!!!

I have always said that this single act alone tells me GA knew.

 

[LambChop]

I think GA knew the only one it could be in the trunk was Caylee because the tow yard had the car since 6/30 and CA had made arrangements to pick Caylee up at Universal through KC on July 3rd, I believe it was the 3rd. So GA knew KC was fine because CA had contacted KC after the 3rd. The only one they had not spoken to in 31 days was Caylee. I would say that maybe shock set in and that is why GA did not call police. The investigator part of him kicked in, I would imagine and CA said, of course, let me handle this. JMO

 

[QueenD]

bbm

yes I agree - although I also remember that GA had not personally spoke with KC - he was just hearing what CA was relating to him as far as contact. KC's purse was on the front seat. The car had been there since 6/30. CA was in full tilt that day trying to get a hold of KC and had probably relayed that to GA. So, at that time GA really didn't know what had happened (supposedly). Yet, as he's walking to the car he thinks to himself "don't let this be my Caylee" - not "what did KC do now?" - not "I hope my girlS are ok".

Nope, he goes straight to Caylee. Then when they opened that trunk - - never ever will I understand why he did not immediately call 911 and report it. Nope, what does he do? He throws the bag (well, the tow yard guy throws the bag out), opens the windows to "vent that thing". And then gets in it and DRIVES IT HOME!!!

I have always said that this single act alone tells me GA knew.

I believe too from that point of the trunk incident GA knew Caylee was dead. And he probably all the way home tried to figure out how or why CA would have done such a thing. Just like GA said in one of his interviews to LE. I was in LE for x-amount of years and you never forget that smell. He knew that smell in the truck was death. I also believe that is why he got sick in the hall during the interview. He knew Caylee was the death smell in that truck. IMO

 

[Wise Old Owl]

I believe too from that point of the trunk incident GA knew Caylee was dead. And he probably all the way home tried to figure out how or why CA would have done such a thing. Just like GA said in one of his interviews to LE. I was in LE for x-amount of years and you never forget that smell. He knew that smell in the truck was death. I also believe that is why he got sick in the hall during the interview. He knew Caylee was the death smell in that truck. IMO

yep yep wasn't that also the interview where LE said to him "I think you are a man that knows alot about alot of things George." Very telling statement iffen ya ask me.

 

[Tulessa]

RE: Thread
Tulessa,FWIW, This one is a close cousin to the, "Anthony Backyard", thread regarding today's discussion. You might find it interesting.

RE: Prints
FWIW, IMHO the checking for prints on the gas can would just be good practice. It wouldn't be expected to provide the "Aha!", but it could be a "Gotcha!" for EITHER the prosecution OR the defense if LE failed to check. Inculp vs. Exculp. Blah, blah, blah.

Say, hypothetically, that decomp was proven to have been on the cans at some point. IF LE didn't check for prints the defense would say LE was sloppy, rushed to judgement, etc. and missed the opportunity to ID the real killer. And that they have checked, the defense can argue if they are absent Casey's prints that supports her innocence. All of it leaves the prosecution to explain the result either way. For example, Casey - or any family member's - prints on the gas can wouldn't prove guilt. But a third-party's prints on the can...like Kronk or Grund...well...that be 'nother story wouldn't it, eh? Principally, for the prosecution getting the prints is to protect the credibility of the investigation, IMHO.

Just now reading this. Thanks JBJ.

 

[faefrost]

I believe too from that point of the trunk incident GA knew Caylee was dead. And he probably all the way home tried to figure out how or why CA would have done such a thing. Just like GA said in one of his interviews to LE. I was in LE for x-amount of years and you never forget that smell. He knew that smell in the truck was death. I also believe that is why he got sick in the hall during the interview. He knew Caylee was the death smell in that truck. IMO

Oh it is rather blatantly obvious that he knew this during that early OSCO interview where he started throwing up in distress while they were asking him about it. He knew what that smell was and he knew exactly what it meant. He knew then what his daughter was. And that knowlege made him physically and violently ill on camera.

Now as far as the "It was an accident that snowballed" story. As I posted in another thread, I think that is something that came from some revelation that hit the A's somewhere around Nov 2008. I suspect that the "accident that snowballed" is the story that KS fed to DC or JB, along with the body being dumped in the woods. DC probably let this slip to CA, who immediately dispathed him to look for something. While George needs to unload his troubles to his mistress at that time and mentally attempt to unburden his soul (you know, make excuses). Basically the "it was an accident" line is in all liklihood just another KC lie that the A's are paroting as always.

 

[The World According]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qQpui-tv7U[/ame]

Judge Jeannine Piero says the reporting of the gas cans being stolen then claiming they show back up on the property...seems like they are covering up something, they should be arrested too. I had never put that together.[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eq9wLTrvtA[/ame]

 

[The World According]

For those of us that were not Ws's when this thread was started, I thank whom ever brought it back to life.

O/T

Love and Texas sized hugs to you Tulessa on the anniversary of your dear brother's murder. He sees you trying to fight for justice, we see you and GOD SEES YOU!!! Julia

 

[Pattymarie]

This question has been bugging me for awhile. When KC backed the car up to her garage, dropping off the gas cans and ran out very quick, screaming obscenities at her own father...do you think he smelled the decomp at the time?
What time frame was this?

 

[BChand]

This question has been bugging me for awhile. When KC backed the car up to her garage, dropping off the gas cans and ran out very quick, screaming obscenities at her own father...do you think he smelled the decomp at the time?
What time frame was this?

Hi pattymarie - IIRC it was June 24th, but I don't know that she backed her car up to the garage on that date.

In fact I do not think she did. She ran ahead of him and opened the trunk and had the gas cans out before George could get a real good look. If the car was backed up, he would have been able to see in there clearly.

As far as what he smelled, we'll never know because he will not tell (the truth). IMO.