GBC Trial General Discussion Thread #2

[Onlyone]

Trying to scratch an itch this morning... DW set me thinking with the helicopter comment, took me right back to everyone watching the search & hoping she would be found.
Watching the behaviour of those close to her.
For insurance to pay out Allison had to be found.
There was chat early on that the bridge was a geocache? If so Allison would be found eventually, hopefully once any forensic evidence was contaminated.
Placed under the bridge to avoid heat seeking helicopters in a missing person search?
Placed under the bridge using trap & ropes? Impossible for one person. Potential to leave a petechial rash where the ropes rubbed. Would require considerable planning?
Far much trouble for a random murderer - IMHO Until this morning, I always thought unplanned domestic & panic, now I'm not so sure...
Cause if death? A manner that would leave little evidence but the fight back & unexpected interest from the first policemen spun the whole pantomime out of control - again only in my humble opinion.

 

[they'll get you]

Im so curious to know what GBCs days are like in jail, do they work?
are they allowed to have computers, internet, TV?
Has he made friends and is he in a cell?
Does he share?
etc

Share what?

'You don't know what you had until it's gone'.
In the darkness of his cell as he tries to sleep and the video of his foolishness plays over and over in his head he regrets every moment.
He's sorry he was caught.
If only.....

 

[DrWatson]

Just a point re the helicopters with the infrared cameras - the reason they fly those at night is that they are looking for someone alive (which we now know Allison wasn't). They had to cover all bases. And those IR cameras show only the DIFFERENCE in heat between a body and the surrounding environment.

So, during the day, the ambient temperature can be too warm (for those overseas, Brisbane is sub-tropical and even in April - our autumn/fall - temperatures can be in the 30s Celsius). There would be much more contrast between ambient temperature and a living body at night time. They would have been using those to look for Allison being injured or trapped somewhere but still alive.

However, if the murderer (whoever it was) KNEW that Allison was dead, then there would be no need to put her deliberately under the bridge to hide her from the IR cameras. But normal cameras (high-res heli-borne cameras can read the newspaper from 5000 feet up) could be another reason.

However, she was only partly under the bridge - her head and shoulders were out from under, and she could be seen by leaning over the bridge railings - see the autopsy report - right at the beginning where Nathan Milne describes what he could see when he arrived at the location.

 

[Mountain Misst]

BBM for emphasis..


well, Stell , that's my fave bit, really.. it's where one is truly obligated to suspend any logic at all. Let's enter into the Gerard/Toni sphere of thought for a few seconds..

She has completely done her block at him not 18 hours previously.. her words.. ' I lost it, I was in a rage , '... she pretends she is interested in Alisons actual welfare, to boot, by stating that Alison deserves to know she, Toni, will be there.. like, as if.. What Alison deserves from both Toni and Gerard has not exactly been a driving force up until that moment , but let's take it on it's face..

She leaves Gerard with the ultimatum. Alison isn't to go .. I presume that Toni means that merely by Gerard telling Alison Toni will be there will do the trick.. that Alison wont go, and she , Toni will be free to enjoy this conference, which from her statements all up, conferences seem to be the highlight of her life.. all that buzz and backslapping etc.. they meant a lot to her.

Does Gerard trudge home and lay this news out on Alison?? I very much doubt it. Doubt if he had told Alison by 8.3pm because Alison is calmly speaking with Olivia re a sleepover .. Alison hasn't rung Kate Rankin to cancel their arrangement to meet the next morning ( Gerard is out of the loop about this particular meeting ) .. and at no time does Alison ring Kate to cancel, not then, not later ,and not when she gets up early to 'go for a walk'. Of course, now we know she couldn't. She was dead.

So Toni , obviously, goes to the conference.. has Gerard rang her to tell her to suck it up , Alison just wouldn't co-operate and Toni will have to deal with it? or.. I tried, Toni, but I just couldn't get it across without dropping you in it.?? or.. .bad luck , GG , can you pretend to be ill and not go??

not a bit of it. And they have the means to contact each other by phone, but this call that isn't made is equivalent to the dog that didn't bark in the night..

Toni knows two people from Gerards office are going to it. ..the evening before she even had advice to Gerard about how he can afford to send two. She rings Gerard, she says, at the lunch break from the conference, this is about 1pm ( Gerard is mid burble with detectives ) to tell him Alison isn't at the conference.. no mention of why Kate Rankin isn't at it from Toni.. just Alison.. From Toni's position, realistically, both Kate Rankin and Alison are 'missing'...

If Alison isn't at the conference,.. where does Toni think she is? and why does she take the risk to ring Gerard to tell him?? She told him that Alison wasn't to go, so what's the mystery to Toni? Alison could be standing right next to him as far as Toni should know.. right at his elbow, if she isn't at the conference, surely this is such a peculiar risk to take at this stage of their entwinement... Alison could be right there in his office, leaning over his desk, or in the car with him showing property now that she has agreed to not go to the conference, why does Toni take this enormous risk in ringing Gerard at that time ?

unless she actually DID get a call from Gerard which neither are mentioning... a quick buzz before all this police stuff, or a call from someone else on the sly, who isn't being scrutinised as closely as Gerard is that morning.. unless she already knows that Alison is 'missing'..

Like you, I cant see Toni girding her girlish loins in happy anticipation of the great time she is going to have at the conference with this conundrum still unresolved, and serenely turning up at the seminar, flags flying.. Just cant see that at all.

Great post Trooper, thanks.

If I might stick my bib in - the call to GBC at 12:09pm (conference lunch break) came in through their usual coded method (IMO) via the office phone.
IMO TM didn't know in advance that Allison wouldn't be there, otherwise why the need to call via their coded method?

The first 'open' conversation call from GBC's mobile to TM was at 3:39pm, directly after GBC had rung the GC solicitor. He spoke to her for 1:48 minutes.

I think TM went home 'sick' around then, leaving the conference early. All calls to TM are direct from then on...

less than 5mins after that 3:39pm call ended, GBC dialed Allison's number for the last time (nudge from TM perhaps?) before ringing TM back again a couple of times just 5 minutes later - by then it's 3:58pm (pings from Kenmore).

Next call from GBC to TM was on the way down to the coast to visit solicitor (pinged at Yatala 5:14pm). Note he had NBC in the car with him when we cross reference phone records and again on the way back to Bne after the appointment he rang her again - 6:41pm (pinged Yatala).

She had her boys staying with her I think so they likely didn't connect that night.

Next call to TM was 9:07am the following morning.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203836"]GBC's phone records - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]



If only we had access to TM's phone records - I for one would have a field day.

 

[ollijack]

Share what?

'You don't know what you had until it's gone'.
In the darkness of his cell as he tries to sleep and the video of his foolishness plays over and over in his head he regrets every moment.
He's sorry he was caught.
If only.....

LOL LOL ummmm share his cell :jail::jail:

 

[possumheart]

In cross-examination by barrister Michael Byrne QC, for the accused, Constable Braunberger agreed the conversation he had with Baden-Clay was not taped and took place on April 20, 2012.

He agreed he made no notes of the conversation and gave a statement one week later.

Mr Byrne: “Can I suggest he did not say anything to you about ‘we are on the bones of our ?’”

Constable Braunberger: “That would be incorrect, that’s the one thing that stands out in my mind.”

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/day-5-gerard-badenclay-on-trial-accused-of-murdering-wife-allison/story-fnihsrf2-1226956622231

I want to highlight this yet again because it is so important to see this in the context of Gerard (and his parents, of whom he told Carmel Ritchie he 'looked after) being at an impasse. Something had to give.
That something was Allison.

 

[marlywings]

Just a point re the helicopters with the infrared cameras - the reason they fly those at night is that they are looking for someone alive (which we now know Allison wasn't). They had to cover all bases. And those IR cameras show only the DIFFERENCE in heat between a body and the surrounding environment.

So, during the day, the ambient temperature can be too warm (for those overseas, Brisbane is sub-tropical and even in April - our autumn/fall - temperatures can be in the 30s Celsius). There would be much more contrast between ambient temperature and a living body at night time. They would have been using those to look for Allison being injured or trapped somewhere but still alive.

However, if the murderer (whoever it was) KNEW that Allison was dead, then there would be no need to put her deliberately under the bridge to hide her from the IR cameras. But normal cameras (high-res heli-borne cameras can read the newspaper from 5000 feet up) could be another reason.

However, she was only partly under the bridge - her head and shoulders were out from under, and she could be seen by leaning over the bridge railings - see the autopsy report - right at the beginning where Nathan Milne describes what he could see when he arrived at the location.

Infrared also used for locating items such as phones...

Text copied from Constable Kellie Thomson's statement....

34. Later that evening, I printed a map of the location of where I saw the Blue do from the application of find my friends on the defendant's phone and we attended 61 Boscombe Road Brookfield, where a search was conducted. During this search I recall having the assistance of a helicopter that was equipped with a heat light. Whilst doing the search we all separated around the property and Inspector Dal'Osto would ensure each person was quiet and all torch lights were off and would call Allison BADEN_CLAY'S mobile to assist the helicopter attempting to locate her phone.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9048177&postcount=20"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Bail Hearing Documents *No Discussion*[/ame]

 

[marlywings]

Im so curious to know what GBCs days are like in jail, do they work?
are they allowed to have computers, internet, TV?
Has he made friends and is he in a cell?
Does he share?
etc

Inside the prison where accused wife-killer Gerard Baden-Clay will be held for up to three years

June 24, 2012


THIS is where accused wife-murderer Gerard Baden-Clay will live, possibly for up to three years, as the high-profile case goes through the legal process.

A toilet connected to a sink, a single bed, a mirror, TV, shelf and desk make up a 3m x 4m cell where prisoners spend 12 hours a day inside the Arthur Gorrie Correctional Centre.

On arrival, prisoners spend at least their first night in an induction unit and get a booklet outlining their daily routine.

The booklet also explains employment, protection status, medical requests, dental services, optometrist appointments, chaplaincy services, discharge as well as requests for a special diet.

Prisoners receive an amenities allowance of $9.55 a week.

A Queensland Corrective Services spokesman said that jobs - including cleaning or kitchen duties, horticulture work in gardens or maintenance - pay $2.80-$8.50 a day.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/accused-wife-killer-in-purgatory/story-e6freon6-1226406390099

 

[PrimeSuspect]

In this vid at 0:40 GBC in OW's car has a phone but it's not an iPhone.


SEVEN7 news
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7DCfHa6YFU

OW - "so we are just desperate that she is returned to us as soon as possible."

:aktion1:

 

[Fuskier]

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...uple-lived-separate-lives-20140619-zsfib.html

Gerard Baden-Clay trial: Couple lived separate lives
June 19, 2014 by Marissa Calligeros

Psychiatrist Tom George told Brisbane’s Supreme Court on Thursday he saw Mr and Mrs Baden-Clay in a joint-consultation on June 3, 2009.
“The crisis then was the state of the marriage,” Dr George said.. she and her husband were “living under the same roof, but living separate lives"...

 

[spratsmum]

I wonder did either of the girls have mobile phone? I would imagine in a house with the Real Estate principal phones would have been a dime a dozen, updated all the time and perhaps for safety and convenience one of the older girls had one of the older phones.

 

[ollijack]

Inside the prison where accused wife-killer Gerard Baden-Clay will be held for up to three years

June 24, 2012


THIS is where accused wife-murderer Gerard Baden-Clay will live, possibly for up to three years, as the high-profile case goes through the legal process.

A toilet connected to a sink, a single bed, a mirror, TV, shelf and desk make up a 3m x 4m cell where prisoners spend 12 hours a day inside the Arthur Gorrie Correctional Centre.

On arrival, prisoners spend at least their first night in an induction unit and get a booklet outlining their daily routine.

The booklet also explains employment, protection status, medical requests, dental services, optometrist appointments, chaplaincy services, discharge as well as requests for a special diet.

Prisoners receive an amenities allowance of $9.55 a week.

A Queensland Corrective Services spokesman said that jobs - including cleaning or kitchen duties, horticulture work in gardens or maintenance - pay $2.80-$8.50 a day.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/accused-wife-killer-in-purgatory/story-e6freon6-1226406390099

Thankyou Marly, that was brilliant xx

 

[spratsmum]

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...uple-lived-separate-lives-20140619-zsfib.html

Gerard Baden-Clay trial: Couple lived separate lives
June 19, 2014 by Marissa Calligeros

Psychiatrist Tom George told Brisbane’s Supreme Court on Thursday he saw Mr and Mrs Baden-Clay in a joint-consultation on June 3, 2009.
“The crisis then was the state of the marriage,” Dr George said.. she and her husband were “living under the same roof, but living separate lives"...

This has been bugging me since I first read it, 2009 Toni is in the picture but the financial situation is not quite so dire. Gerard stays with Allison for almost another 3 years and Allison tolerates the situation for the same time. Early in 2012 they go to see a marriage counselor, who prescribes the face to face 15 minute chats. It seemed to me from reading that, that the counselor was, for want of a better term, "putting the blame" with Gerard. I really don't see Gerard as being the warm and fuzzy type who liked to share, too feminine for him. Also I would imagine these sessions were not cheap, so we have got the two major issues together in this situation. To be quite blunt I don't think Gerard wanted to save the marriage, he was over it. He didn't want to be with Toni either, she was just his bit on the side, staying in the marriage meant he didn't have to change anything with Toni, and he always had a excuse for not taking it a step further, he was already married.

The whole idea of sitting down for 15 minutes and berating yourself and letting your partner ask all the questions, is horrific I think. It would just make me more angry. So much in GBC life had robbed him of his male pride - women, money, business failure and nobody was helping HIM, everyone was against him. Allison was worth more dead than alive, eliminate her and you get rid of a lot of his worries. But I still can't work out many of the hows and whys, and I think a jury has to be based on fact not feeling, I hope the week ahead has some explanations.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I wonder did either of the girls have mobile phone? I would imagine in a house with the Real Estate principal phones would have been a dime a dozen, updated all the time and perhaps for safety and convenience one of the older girls had one of the older phones.

Are you implying that GBC used it to call TM? Actually someone up to no good probably would do that especially if he knew Allison was keeping tabs on his phone usage. Good thinking.
I'm sure QPS would have checked all the phones though? But then again, GBC could have disposed of phone just like Allisons phone? jmho

 

[spratsmum]

Are you implying that GBC used it to call TM? Actually someone up to no good probably would do that especially if he knew Allison was keeping tabs on his phone usage. Good thinking.
I'm sure QPS would have checked all the phones though? But then again, GBC could have disposed of phone just like Allisons phone? jmho

What I am inferring PrimeSuspect is, that perhaps those phone were used for more "private calls" and we don't anything about them.

I am finding the discrepancies and the timeline difference from the hairdressing appointment to the around 9 pm at the GBC confusing, there are just so many pieces that don't fit, e. g coming home from The NBC and going to bed so early, they just don't fit with me, the debrief comment.

I am truly trying to understand this in my mind, but I am becoming more and more confused.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

This has been bugging me since I first read it, 2009 Toni is in the picture but the financial situation is not quite so dire. Gerard stays with Allison for almost another 3 years and Allison tolerates the situation for the same time. Early in 2012 they go to see a marriage counselor, who prescribes the face to face 1 minute chats. It seemed to me from reading that, that the counselor was, for want of a better term, "putting the blame" with Gerard. I really don't see Gerard as being the warm and fuzzy type who liked to share, too feminine for him. Also I would imagine these sessions were not cheap, so we have got the two major issues together in this situation. To be quite blunt I don't think Gerard wanted to save the marriage, he was over it. He didn't want to be with Toni either, she was just his bit on the side, staying in the marriage meant he didn't have to change anything with Toni, and he always had a excuse for not taking it a step further, he was already married.

The whole idea of sitting down for 15 minutes and berating yourself and letting your partner ask all the questions, is horrific I think. It would just make me more angry. So much in GBC life had robbed him of his male pride - women, money, business failure and no body was helping HIM, everyone was against him. Allison was worth more dead than alive, eliminate her and you get rid of a lot of his worries. But I still can't work out many of the hows and whys, and I think a jury has to be based on fact not feeling, I hope the week ahead has some explanations.

These were all self inflicted though, spratsmum. A man, like a woman, has to take some responsibility. Imo, GBC has a great support network, so I don't think of GBC fighting some lone battle.
He wasn't ashamed to ask friends for exorbitant amounts of money, what kind of person does that? A desperate fool or someone acquainted with getting their own way? jmho

 

[Minerva]

This pic shows how difficult it would be to reverse the Captiva into the carport around the Prado which is parked slightly in front of the Captiva.
GBC said this is what he did. Why did he take the Captiva out to look for Allison and go the the trouble of reversing it in again when the Prado was the easier vehicle to take.

I wonder if it was something as mundane as the Prado needed petrol so he took the Captiva because it had more fuel in the tank. Not enough time to get up to Kenmore, fill the tank and then drive the streets looking for Allison.

The parking arrangements still baffle me, unless he knew that Allison wouldn't be using the Captiva that day so he parked it back under the carport, conveniently out of the way. :face palm: It must have looked like an awkward parking spot to get into, with the Prado in the way. Kieron Ash had specifically asked (refer to item 17 of Kieron Ash's statement in the Bail Hearing document thread - sorry, don't know how to post link).

 

[Timmy]

So there is no way the police can trace landline calls with all their super dooper technology? I was hoping they could lease:

Years ago we had an unusually high phone bill and we phoned telstra to look in to it and requested an itemised account of all calls. We were sent an itemised account of every call made from our landline, including all local calls. I am almost certain that they would be able to trace the landline calls.

 

[Minerva]

Are you implying that GBC used it to call TM? Actually someone up to no good probably would do that especially if he knew Allison was keeping tabs on his phone usage. Good thinking.
I'm sure QPS would have checked all the phones though? But then again, GBC could have disposed of phone just like Allisons phone? jmho

I'm sure Allison would have monitored her daughter's phone usage. I certainly would monitor my own 10 year old's phone usage.

I believe Toni had just started a new job, hence the need for her to attend the conference and that non-attendance was not an option for her. I wonder if Toni also had a new mobile phone number, and therefore it would not be recognised by Allison, and Toni could risk calling GBC again on his mobile? I'm sure he would have been wily enough to have her listed under an alias. Either that or Allison had stopped regularly checking GBC's phone.

http://m.news.com.au/QLD/fi11747073.htm - at 4.15pm Toni testified in court that she had started a new job on April 19th.

 

[Cattail]

I have been reading the judgement in Rayney and found this statement:

The State contended it is so highly unlikely that someone would attack the deceased outside her home that such a possibility should be rejected. Ordinarily the community hopes that such events do not happen, but on occasions the community is shocked to learn that such attacks do occur. More importantly, the question for the Court is not whether it is likely that someone would attack the deceased outside her home at 9.45 pm at night. Nor is the Court asked to decide who killed the deceased if it was not the accused. The task given by law to the Court is to decide whether the evidence proves beyond reasonable doubt that the accused killed the deceased.

Also Rayney had lied about which car he drove to a dinner in relation to a name card found near the body. The judge accepted that he had lied but said that lying about this did not prove that he had done the murder.

I would think from this that GBC lying about the scratches on his face is not enough proof to be found guilty.

Also that no matter how unlikely someone else did it, that is also not enough for proof.


It may be different in this case as it is a jury trial. But I think it shows how hard it can be to get a conviction with only circumstantial evidence.

http://www.supremecourt.wa.gov.au/_files/Judgment_Summary_Rayney.pdf