General Discussion and Theories #2

[Alethea Dice]

Funny you should mention the business going belly up Swedie, I just stumbled on this wikipedia page, and don't recall ever hearing about the business going bankrupt in 1990.




http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millardair

Wow, $23 million. I guess Waterloo had a great deal.

JMO

 

[Juballee]

With all due respect Alethea Dice, there is no mention of who put down the cash for the farm - it could have been DM, WM or someone else.

I do not know if it has been suggested yet, but it is a possibility that DM had other legitimate jobs or business and a stream of fairly decent income of his own, is it not?

 

[Juballee]

I'm not suggesting in any way this has any links with this case, but it is a very interesting story.

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2012/09/24/mro-hangar-occupied-by-first-customer/

It is a very interesting article, thank you for the information, it has given me a lot to think about. It is funny to me how that hanger also looked dead and like it was taking too long until it suddenly had its first visitor and sprang to life. To me, Windsor and Waterloo are not that far apart comparatively, were these two hangers meant to be competition for each other? Are there a lot of these large MRO hangers about in southern Ontario? Just because I have never heard of one before this, doesn't mean they are not a popular thing that this part of the world may be known for.

Perhaps the type of tenant mentioned here, PA is the type of tenant Millardair was looking for to lease their hanger out to as well? And I wonder who was getting the Waterloo contracts, how hard was it for them, or was it easier because their hanger had less toys? Or is it possible that they could have gotten that contract because the first MRO hanger contract for that first South American fell apart before it could be business as usual at Millardair? This is mere speculation, of course, but questions raised in my own mind after reading that informative article.

I also find it interesting to learn the extensive amounts of work that will go into some of the planes before they fly back out and the wide array of extremely specialized tools that may be required. It would be really interesting to know if one of the specialized machines that they invested in could have been a small incinerator for safely disposing if the carcasses of dead birds that have collided with planes? I have recently read an article about how planes hit birds everyday and can cause quite extensive damage at times, sometimes with large bird carcasses half buried in the plane on landing, requiring repair, likely at a MRO facility would be my guess. It is also known that many airports are surrounded by habitats that are home to many fowl, and some airports have taken measures to discourage or sometimes eliminate the birds. What do they do to safely and sanitarily dispose of those carcasses as well I wonder?

 

[Sillybilly]

It would be really interesting to know if one of the specialized machines that they invested in could have been a small incinerator for safely disposing if the carcasses of dead birds that have collided with planes? I have recently read an article about how planes hit birds everyday and can cause quite extensive damage at times, sometimes with large bird carcasses half buried in the plane on landing, requiring repair, likely at a MRO facility would be my guess. It is also known that many airports are surrounded by habitats that are home to many fowl, and some airports have taken measures to discourage or sometimes eliminate the birds. What do they do to safely and sanitarily dispose of those carcasses as well I wonder?

<rsbm>

Given DM legitimately owned an airport hangar, one would think he would be upfront and state it was to dispose of bird carcasses at the hangar, not to dispose of farm animals (as the incinerator company said was his explanation).

Regardless, the incinerator was found on his farm, not at the hangar.

 

[MsSherlock]

It is a very interesting article, thank you for the information, it has given me a lot to think about. It is funny to me how that hanger also looked dead and like it was taking too long until it suddenly had its first visitor and sprang to life. To me, Windsor and Waterloo are not that far apart comparatively, were these two hangers meant to be competition for each other? Are there a lot of these large MRO hangers about in southern Ontario? Just because I have never heard of one before this, doesn't mean they are not a popular thing that this part of the world may be known for.

Perhaps the type of tenant mentioned here, PA is the type of tenant Millardair was looking for to lease their hanger out to as well? And I wonder who was getting the Waterloo contracts, how hard was it for them, or was it easier because their hanger had less toys? Or is it possible that they could have gotten that contract because the first MRO hanger contract for that first South American fell apart before it could be business as usual at Millardair? This is mere speculation, of course, but questions raised in my own mind after reading that informative article.

I also find it interesting to learn the extensive amounts of work that will go into some of the planes before they fly back out and the wide array of extremely specialized tools that may be required. It would be really interesting to know if one of the specialized machines that they invested in could have been a small incinerator for safely disposing if the carcasses of dead birds that have collided with planes? I have recently read an article about how planes hit birds everyday and can cause quite extensive damage at times, sometimes with large bird carcasses half buried in the plane on landing, requiring repair, likely at a MRO facility would be my guess. It is also known that many airports are surrounded by habitats that are home to many fowl, and some airports have taken measures to discourage or sometimes eliminate the birds. What do they do to safely and sanitarily dispose of those carcasses as well I wonder?

Yes, Juballee, that article is excellent in many ways. Airports like Windsor and Waterloo are inexpensive airports for MRO's to operate out of in comparison to Toronto. They have good runways and lower landing fees. IMHO, the most important thing to notice here is the interior of the Windsor hangar. There are no cars, no toys, no personal use aircraft being stored. IMO, the Airline Companies would demand this sterile environment. I believe this was the basis for the dispute between DM & AS in November/12. IMO, once the real operation got going, things would never be the same for DM and any associates that were working out of the hangar.
Millardair was an exibitor at the Air Transat Association of Canada's General Meeting & Tradeshow Nov 13-15, 2012, stating they were commencing operations that same fall: Page 26 at http://www.wingsmagazine.com/images/atac-showguide1.pdf AS is listed as contact.
The conversation between DM & AS was prior to this event, and IMO, attendance at this event would have been planned well in advance of AS discovering the hangar was not in the condition needed to bring prospective customers through. Just 2 weeks later WM was dead.
The livestock incinerator for bird strike remnants in an MRO? IMHO, it's difficult to imagine firing up an incinerator designed for 150lb animals to dispose of a badly chewed bird carcass pulled from an engine. But, I think the real facts rest with how the unit was purchased.
"The Ontario buyer said he wanted to dispose of dead farm animals.." IMO, DM, or anyone could have easily said we're an MRO and want to dispose of the dead geese we may have to pull out of an engine.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...rge-in-mysterious-bosma-case/article12757899/
"An ‘Eliminator incinerator' designed to dispose of livestock remains was purchased by Dellen Millard in July 2012,"
http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2013/05/20130517-073330.html

MOO

 

[MsSherlock]

To me, Windsor and Waterloo are not that far apart comparatively, were these two hangers meant to be competition for each other? Are there a lot of these large MRO hangers about in southern Ontario? Just because I have never heard of one before this, doesn't mean they are not a popular thing that this part of the world may be known for.

Juballee, I think this may give you a better understanding of how large and complex the aviation maintenance industry is in Ontario. IMO, these two MRO's would not have to worry about loosing business to each other, they would have their individual contracts.
http://www.wingsmagazine.com/images/atac-showguide1.pdf

 

[dizzy1]

Just wanted to add a link to a new article Blomquist posted in the Innocent Dupe thread. Quite interesting! (Gotta go read it again!)

http://m.thestar.com/#!/news/tim-bo...r-12-million/07388ba651ad8232d63530cc73aefba7

On May 17, Millard transferred three properties to Burns, just days after his arrest in the murder of the Hamilton man. Eight legal experts reviewed the transfer documents for the Star and all said it raised concerns about Millard&#8217;s intentions, saying the timing of the property dump was &#8220;highly unusual&#8221; and poses serious legal questions.

 

[Blomquist]

<rsbm>

Given DM legitimately owned an airport hangar, one would think he would be upfront and state it was to dispose of bird carcasses at the hangar, not to dispose of farm animals (as the incinerator company said was his explanation).

Regardless, the incinerator was found on his farm, not at the hangar.

Maybe he will be up front when he has a chance to speak without being at risk of his words being twisted by LE and Crown Prosecution Service ???? What if he did say to manufacturer that it was to dispose of birds and animals.....must we always take quotes from newspapers as verbatim ? In my experience most of the time a conversation gets distorted by the time it gets to press....

Who put the incinerator at his farm? Do you have evidence that says Dellen put it there...as I have not seen this evidence.?

 

[Juballee]

Yes, Juballee, that article is excellent in many ways. Airports like Windsor and Waterloo are inexpensive airports for MRO's to operate out of in comparison to Toronto. They have good runways and lower landing fees. IMHO, the most important thing to notice here is the interior of the Windsor hangar. There are no cars, no toys, no personal use aircraft being stored. IMO, the Airline Companies would demand this sterile environment. I believe this was the basis for the dispute between DM & AS in November/12. IMO, once the real operation got going, things would never be the same for DM and any associates that were working out of the hangar.
Millardair was an exibitor at the Air Transat Association of Canada's General Meeting & Tradeshow Nov 13-15, 2012, stating they were commencing operations that same fall: Page 26 at http://www.wingsmagazine.com/images/atac-showguide1.pdf AS is listed as contact.
The conversation between DM & AS was prior to this event, and IMO, attendance at this event would have been planned well in advance of AS discovering the hangar was not in the condition needed to bring prospective customers through. Just 2 weeks later WM was dead.
The livestock incinerator for bird strike remnants in an MRO? IMHO, it's difficult to imagine firing up an incinerator designed for 150lb animals to dispose of a badly chewed bird carcass pulled from an engine. But, I think the real facts rest with how the unit was purchased.
"The Ontario buyer said he wanted to dispose of dead farm animals.." IMO, DM, or anyone could have easily said we're an MRO and want to dispose of the dead geese we may have to pull out of an engine.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...rge-in-mysterious-bosma-case/article12757899/
"An ‘Eliminator incinerator' designed to dispose of livestock remains was purchased by Dellen Millard in July 2012,"
http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2013/05/20130517-073330.html

MOO

We do not know the condition of the hanger in the months before it was ready to open, nor do we know if the owners of the Windsor hanger have a large collection of classic cars that they needed to store there. I have seen photos showing the Millardair hanger looking showroom clean for advertising purposes, are you suggesting that it was cleaned up just to take the photos and then promptly turned back into a messy chop shop? We have no idea if DM and WM took AS's advise and cleaned the hanger when he recommended it, do we? And I think if it did look like a chop shop and not a hanger full of toys, AS would have been the first one to say claim that to the media.

Also, I didn't mention it, but the article I read also pointed out that many other animals are killed or injured on airport property as well, the article mentions deer and coyotes being some of the larger more common casualties. And I think we are still debating here the actual size of the incinerator, some say it was the largest model, others say the model number is for the smaller version.

 

[Blomquist]

Just wanted to add a link to a new article Blomquist posted in the Innocent Dupe thread. Quite interesting! (Gotta go read it again!)

http://m.thestar.com/#!/news/tim-bo...r-12-million/07388ba651ad8232d63530cc73aefba7

I actually reposted as did many people on that thread..... but always good to have a link .... ;-)

 

[lanman]

The livestock incinerator for bird strike remnants in an MRO? IMHO, it's difficult to imagine firing up an incinerator designed for 150lb animals to dispose of a badly chewed bird carcass pulled from an engine.

Remember US Airways Flight 1549, aka 'Miracle On The Hudson' ? Those engines injected Canada Geese. Birds don't usually get much bigger than that. All that was left was a feather

"On January 21, the NTSB noted that organic debris, including a single feather, as well as evidence of soft-body damage, was found in the right engine.[100][101] The left engine was recovered from the river on January 23 and, like the right engine, was missing a large portion of its housing.[102] On initial examination the NTSB reported that while missing obvious organic matter, it too had evidence of soft body impact, and "had dents on both the spinner and inlet lip of the engine cowling. Five booster inlet guide vanes are fractured and eight outlet guide vanes are missing." Both engines were to be sent to the manufacturer's Cincinnati, Ohio, facility for teardown and examination.[103] On January 31, the plane was moved to a secure storage facility in Kearny, New Jersey, for the remainder of the investigation. The NTSB confirmed that bird remains had been found in both engines.[99][104] The bird debris was later identified, through DNA testing, as the remains of Canada Geese, the typical weights of which are well above the limits of impact for which the engines were designed.[99]"

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549"]US Airways Flight 1549 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[Blomquist]

Remember US Airways Flight 1549, aka 'Miracle On The Hudson' ? Those engines injected Canada Geese. Birds don't usually get much bigger than that. All that was left was a feather

"On January 21, the NTSB noted that organic debris, including a single feather, as well as evidence of soft-body damage, was found in the right engine.[100][101] The left engine was recovered from the river on January 23 and, like the right engine, was missing a large portion of its housing.[102] On initial examination the NTSB reported that while missing obvious organic matter, it too had evidence of soft body impact, and "had dents on both the spinner and inlet lip of the engine cowling. Five booster inlet guide vanes are fractured and eight outlet guide vanes are missing." Both engines were to be sent to the manufacturer's Cincinnati, Ohio, facility for teardown and examination.[103] On January 31, the plane was moved to a secure storage facility in Kearny, New Jersey, for the remainder of the investigation. The NTSB confirmed that bird remains had been found in both engines.[99][104] The bird debris was later identified, through DNA testing, as the remains of Canada Geese, the typical weights of which are well above the limits of impact for which the engines were designed.[99]"

US Airways Flight 1549 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Either it was bird debris or 'just a feather' which is it ???? JMO

 

[Juballee]

Remember US Airways Flight 1549, aka 'Miracle On The Hudson' ? Those engines injected Canada Geese. Birds don't usually get much bigger than that. All that was left was a feather

"On January 21, the NTSB noted that organic debris, including a single feather, as well as evidence of soft-body damage, was found in the right engine.[100][101] The left engine was recovered from the river on January 23 and, like the right engine, was missing a large portion of its housing.[102] On initial examination the NTSB reported that while missing obvious organic matter, it too had evidence of soft body impact, and "had dents on both the spinner and inlet lip of the engine cowling. Five booster inlet guide vanes are fractured and eight outlet guide vanes are missing." Both engines were to be sent to the manufacturer's Cincinnati, Ohio, facility for teardown and examination.[103] On January 31, the plane was moved to a secure storage facility in Kearny, New Jersey, for the remainder of the investigation. The NTSB confirmed that bird remains had been found in both engines.[99][104] The bird debris was later identified, through DNA testing, as the remains of Canada Geese, the typical weights of which are well above the limits of impact for which the engines were designed.[99]"

US Airways Flight 1549 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I find this confusing, was it a single feather as you say or bird remains as the article states that were later found in the engine? And how did they dispose of the remains after DNA testing was completed? Most large facilities I have ever seen where bio waste needs to be destroyed have a safe means of doing so, they are not allowed to just throw it in the regular trash usually.

 

[lanman]

I find this confusing, was it a single feather as you say or bird remains as the article states that were later found in the engine? And how did they dispose of the remains after DNA testing was completed? Most large facilities I have ever seen where bio waste needs to be destroyed have a safe means of doing so, they are not allowed to just throw it in the regular trash usually.

The 'debris' was about 1 cup of charred remains.

 

[Juballee]

The 'debris' was about 1 cup of charred remains.

So the 'one feather' claim was just a colourful expression meant to further minimalize the possibility that there could be remains of animal matter to be disposed of in an airport or MRO setting?

Would there not still be laws and regulations about the proper and sanitary way to dispose of animal remains in a regulated business setting?

 

[Alethea Dice]

The 'debris' was about 1 cup of charred remains.

1 cup of charred remains in the right engine combuster area.
Foreign material consistent with bird feathers and tissue was found on the outer surface of the outer vane ring. (both left and right)
Organic tissue behind left engine spinner.
Foreign material consistent with bird feathers and tissue was inside the engine from the spinner through the LPC to the stage-1 HPC. (both engine cores)

FWIW and whatever that means.

http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2010/AAR1003.pdf

 

[Alethea Dice]

Yes, Juballee, that article is excellent in many ways. Airports like Windsor and Waterloo are inexpensive airports for MRO's to operate out of in comparison to Toronto. They have good runways and lower landing fees. IMHO, the most important thing to notice here is the interior of the Windsor hangar. There are no cars, no toys, no personal use aircraft being stored. IMO, the Airline Companies would demand this sterile environment. I believe this was the basis for the dispute between DM & AS in November/12. IMO, once the real operation got going, things would never be the same for DM and any associates that were working out of the hangar.
Millardair was an exibitor at the Air Transat Association of Canada's General Meeting & Tradeshow Nov 13-15, 2012, stating they were commencing operations that same fall: Page 26 at http://www.wingsmagazine.com/images/atac-showguide1.pdf AS is listed as contact.
The conversation between DM & AS was prior to this event, and IMO, attendance at this event would have been planned well in advance of AS discovering the hangar was not in the condition needed to bring prospective customers through. Just 2 weeks later WM was dead.
The livestock incinerator for bird strike remnants in an MRO? IMHO, it's difficult to imagine firing up an incinerator designed for 150lb animals to dispose of a badly chewed bird carcass pulled from an engine. But, I think the real facts rest with how the unit was purchased.
"The Ontario buyer said he wanted to dispose of dead farm animals.." IMO, DM, or anyone could have easily said we're an MRO and want to dispose of the dead geese we may have to pull out of an engine.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...rge-in-mysterious-bosma-case/article12757899/
"An ‘Eliminator incinerator' designed to dispose of livestock remains was purchased by Dellen Millard in July 2012,"
http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2013/05/20130517-073330.html

MOO

In pictures I've seen on friends' FB pages, the Waterloo hangar looked very much like this photo - very clean, two planes, one helicopter, no toys. Some of those were from October 2012, so it's hard to say when the toys arrived that AS was complaining about in November.

It's interesting that Premier Aviation was also an exhibitor at that Trade Show.

If the Windsor project started getting results in September, and AS was still unable to produce any signed contracts, it's also conceivable that's when Millard Air lost hope, confronted AS, and started looking for other options.

JMO, but I'm beginning to see a clearer trail of events here.
The tenant in Windsor, Premier Aviation, gets it's first customer in September.
DM confronts AS mid-November.
WM commits suicide end of November. (Maybe lost hope and realized his mistake of trusting in AS.)

It's pretty clear to me who was making the money off this venture. Also understandable why someone would be angry about losing his gravy train.

This all reminds me of an obituary that many thought was unacceptable. "His hope was for a time when cooperation would be the norm and competition was only friendly. He was frugal with himself and generous to others."

JMO

 

[swedie]

Pure fabrication IMO doesn't help solve a case..... much of the rental business at the hangars was happening when WM was alive....some of the photo shoots were in 2005.... thats when CM was alive, so how can anyone suggest DM let loose after his dad died ? IMO his dad was very much alive when the hangars were rented. Not only that ...the so called stolen Harley was stolen last Fall....so WM was probably still alive then too IMO.

DM is 27 he was 27 when his dad died....are we really supposed to believe that his dad kept tabs on him at 27 and bossed him around ? I have a 27 year old son and I would not dream of bossing him around and keeping tabs on him, he's a grown man !!!!

DM had his own money, the farm is in his name and it was viewed alongside his dad and bought solely by DM....whilst his dad was alive....so how can anyone come to the conclusion that DM didnt have any money? Not only that I imagine we can pull up the will of CM (it is public record) and see if CM left money to DM.

http://globalnews.ca/news/561827/who-is-dellen-millard/

“At the time he seemed like a nice enough young man, was reasonably good to do business with, very business-like in his approach to buying property,” Nicholson said

Agent says he was doing business with Dellen !!!!!!!!!!!!!

And yes it is just someones speculation that money was borrowed against the hangar for DM's properties...as we have not seen any facts to support that claim.

<modsnip>

BBM There was no rental business going on at the new hangar.

One of the larger hangars at the airport, it was built at a cost of several million dollars. It was expected to hold 757s or other large airplanes for maintenance and repair work. Airport general manager Chris Wood says he never saw those planes, but did see a mixture of smaller aircraft and non-aviation items. “I haven’t seen activity consistent with what was indicated on their lease … ever,” he tells CTV News.

“It’s not a functioning operation as was originally conceived by Mr. Millard.”


Read more: http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/activit...airport-boss-expected-1.1302652#ixzz2Zbp7Bbjx

ULBM Misconstrued my post. WM had every right to know what was going on at his business. Whether he was monitoring his son or other's at the hangar, it's his business, his prerogative. MOO

IBM Because we have not been made privy as to where DM got his money from, say employment outside of his father's business or illegal activities, I will continue to believe DM was riding on the coat tails of dear old dad. JMHO and prerogative.

 

[Blomquist]

bbm there was no rental business going on at the new hangar. How do you know that?

there could have been small rental operations going on on a casual basis....just because msm hasn't notified everyone of anything doesn't mean it wasn't occurring imo

one of the larger hangars at the airport, it was built at a cost of several million dollars. It was expected to hold 757s or other large airplanes for maintenance and repair work. Airport general manager chris wood says he never saw those planes, but did see a mixture of smaller aircraft and non-aviation items. &#8220;i haven&#8217;t seen activity consistent with what was indicated on their lease &#8230; ever,&#8221; he tells ctv news.

&#8220;it&#8217;s not a functioning operation as was originally conceived by mr. Millard.&#8221;


but it could have been functioning in other ways . Jmo

read more: http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/activit...airport-boss-expected-1.1302652#ixzz2zbp7bbjx

ulbm misconstrued my post. Wm had every right to know what was going on at his business. Whether he was monitoring his son or other's at the hangar, it's his business, his prerogative. Moo

who says he didnt know what was going on. It's easy to speculate that wm was monitoring his son....but in actual fact was he? Maybe dm had free reign...it would not surprise me. My father has businesses and we are allowed to enter and leave whenever we choose. Jmo

ibm because we have not been made privy as to where dm got his money from, say employment outside of his father's business or illegal activities, i will continue to believe dm was riding on the coat tails of dear old dad. Jmho and prerogative.

why do you keep saying it was his fathers business? It could well have been a case that his dad shared the business with his only son and heir !!!! Imo not all family businesses are anal to the point of excluding the eventual benefactors of the estate from having any input or say.... In fact my father has put much of his business into his childrens names already !!!!

jmo moo

 

[Juballee]

In pictures I've seen on friends' FB pages, the Waterloo hangar looked very much like this photo - very clean, two planes, one helicopter, no toys. Some of those were from October 2012, so it's hard to say when the toys arrived that AS was complaining about in November.

It's interesting that Premier Aviation was also an exhibitor at that Trade Show.

If the Windsor project started getting results in September, and AS was still unable to produce any signed contracts, it's also conceivable that's when Millard Air lost hope, confronted AS, and started looking for other options.

JMO, but I'm beginning to see a clearer trail of events here.
The tenant in Windsor, Premier Aviation, gets it's first customer in September.
DM confronts AS mid-November.
WM commits suicide end of November. (Maybe lost hope and realized his mistake of trusting in AS.)

It's pretty clear to me who was making the money off this venture. Also understandable why someone would be angry about losing his gravy train.

This all reminds me of an obituary that many thought was unacceptable. "His hope was for a time when cooperation would be the norm and competition was only friendly. He was frugal with himself and generous to others."

JMO

Thank you Alethea, your posts are always clear, concise, and beautifully logical without any fear mongering, rumour starting or a feeling of schadenfreude. The way you have possibly tied it into the obit was chilling. I never thought the obituary was that odd, I just assumed it contained personal references not necessarily easily understood by those not in their immediate circle, which I found very normal. But your possible explaination is pretty intriguing to me, I like the way your brain works.