General Discussion and Theories #4

[Juballee]

MS is in jail and has been for over 2 years. It does not matter what he was doing before he was arrested, he is not out on bail and able to collect an income and therefore meets the indigent requirements for legal aid since, to my knowledge, he does not own property or have any considerable assets that would disqualify him. Are there any links to say that he does?

That said, however, does not mean that his lawyer is actually billing legal aid and that his defense is not being paid for by someone else or that Thomas Dungey is not working this case pro bono. Again, I've not seen any indication that this is the case either so if anyone has a link to say how he is being paid I'd like to see it too.

MOO

Would this mean that everyone who is in jail awaiting a trail who does not own provable assets is eligible for legal aid because none of them can collect a wage either?

 

[Kamille]

Yes it does, however there are guidelines based on family income. I posted the chart earlier, I'll post it again. As a single person, MS qualifies IMO.

http://www.legalaid.on.ca/en/getting/certificateprogram.asp

 

[Tamarind]

Yes it does, however there are guidelines based on family income. I posted the chart earlier, I'll post it again. As a single person, MS qualifies IMO.

http://www.legalaid.on.ca/en/getting/certificateprogram.asp

If MS was living at home his families assets will be included in his application for Legal Aid, just as the chart in the link explains:


Step 1
Certificate eligibility thresholds

You will likely qualify if your annual gross family income is lower than column 1. If it is higher, move to Step 2.

He was apparently living with his mother.

 

[SnooperDuper]

RSBM

I wonder if a judge has ruled on this yet, they have had over 2 years to question it.

A justice of the peace presided over the case up to early this year. A judge, SG, was only appointed to the case in late January, 2015.

http://www.therecord.com/news-story/5264417-former-kitchener-judge-to-preside-at-bosma-murder-trial/

At the end of February, 2015, SG called the Crown and defense together for a series of closed-door meetings in order to deal with a issue that was only described as “important”, “controversial” and urgent.

t was Glithero who called for the appearance, and Glithero who wanted it to take place behind closed doors

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...amily-press-barred-from-pretrial-motions.html

The outcome was that within 5 weeks of the judge being assigned to the case,

The flashy and effusive criminal lawyer who planned to defend accused serial killer Dellen Millard at trial has been replaced.

http://www.therecord.com/news-story/5688882-millard-to-be-represented-by-new-lawyer/

The thing I love about DP is that he started his career in Brampton (Google "DP Brampton"), and spent years practising from an office there, but when you read the Toronto Star bio of him, the only "B" word he uses is "Bay Street". He gets a little jiggy with the details. http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...deepak_paradkar_i_treat_trials_like_wars.html

Anyway, the judge dealt with something pretty quick...what was it?

That is if there is ever a lawsuit.

http://www.guelphmercury.com/news-s...millard-land-deals-beyond-smelly-experts-say/

"The act clearly states the transfer of property to "defeat, hinder, delay or defraud creditors or others of their just and lawful actions" — including suits or damages — is void if not done in "good faith" or with knowledge of such action against them."

Even then I have a feeling that it could be argued that DM signed power of attorney over to his mother in good faith, and they were not aware of any actions against them at that time. Was he supposed to wait countless years without a power of attorney in the chance that he may be sued later?

IF DM killed WM, DM could not inherit from him. Surely DM and his lawyer and others know this and could not be found to be acting in good faith with that knowledge, especially with a lawyer's advice.

"Good faith" means "a sincere belief or motive without any malice or the desire to defraud others" http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Good+Faith

If DM attempts to hold on to an inheritance that is not legally his, he is defrauding the rightful heir (who is not MB).

.

Somebody is creating a monster that does not exist

The Millard assets are not on trial here , never have been , never will be , they will not be distributed to me , to you , to the courts , or to the victims.

Our justice system uses incarceration as the penalty for murder , not financial remuneration.

.

Both civil and criminal actions are part of the justice system, and provide justice. For that matter, criminal penalties can be monetary.

The victims, namely TB's wife, daughter and parents; LB's brother and parents; and WM's rightful heir(s) (not MB) all have the right to sue DM civilly.

Perhaps because of the botched investigation of the murders of LB and WM, government will be sued and be the one to pay, from the backs of the taxpayer.

I expect that after the criminal trials have concluded, just as in the RW and RP cases, victims will sue civilly to ensure justice is served to the full extent possible under Canadian law. If the victims are reticent, I am sure a lawyer will guide them.

DM can only be punished by life imprisonment once - but he is alleged to have killed three times.

Is justice really fulfilled by that one criminal penalty, life imprisonment, which can only truly be levied once, in the face of three murders?

DM also used his many assets provided by his wealth to commit this crime. The incinerator, Yukon, trailer, hangar, farm property were all owned by DM and that was made possible by his wealth, so why not remove his wealth if he used it as a tool of crime?

Why not punish DM financially, if his financial situation made it possible to commit these crimes?

Anyway, it's quite possible DM and MB will keep all the cash from everything he rightfully owned outright (i.e., not his inheritance) and you, the Ontario taxpayer, will remunerate his victims, just as happened in the RP civil case. IMO.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Mu...e+wrongful+death+spotlight/9628651/story.html

 

[SnooperDuper]

<rsbm>

I guess only the evidence and the trial can determine that. Circumstantial evidence is not enough to convict someone in a true and just court of law. JMO

Sure it is: here's proof. Convicted of first degree murder and unlawful confinement, "Further, there seems no quarrel about the nature of the prosecutor’s case: it consists of circumstantial evidence.", appeal on this basis denied. http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/do...YWwgZXZpZGVuY2UgbXVyZGVyAAAAAAE&resultIndex=1

Who's to say that they don't have direct evidence, like video, anyway?

The investigation into the disappearance of Ancaster’s Tim Bosma brought in over 10,000 video files just on that one case.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/why-is-security-camera-video-still-so-terrible-1.2542359

The certificate allowed MillardAir, but it also secured the way for any future company to do MRO at that hangar/airport. FWIW. IMO.

Nope, the certification was cancelled my MA and is no longer valid for anyone. Anyone wanting to run an MRO in the hangar now has to be re-certified from scratch.

[A] Transport Canada spokesperson confirmed the company’s certification as an approved maintenance organization was cancelled this past February [2013] at the company’s request.

Dumb move not to sell MA as a turnkey operation, MRO, hangar and all?

 

[SnooperDuper]

The Transport Canada certification came through on November 1, 2012

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/m...-bosma-murder-suspect-started-to-dismantle-it

November 13 - 15, 2012, Millardair was an exhibitor at a trade show in Vancouver, promoting the MRO. Surely they got a lead or two.

https://www.wingsmagazine.com/images/atac-showguide1.pdf

Less than 2 weeks before WM's death, i.e., at the earliest November 16, 2012, after the trade show, AS and DM went to dinner.

Mr. Sharif recounted in an email. “I went over all of the contracts that were in negotiations and the potential for 2013. We parted pleasantly.”

Note, they did have contracts in negotiation...it wasn't as if they didn't even have a lead. And they'd just come back from a trade show.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/m...-bosma-murder-suspect-started-to-dismantle-it

WM died on November 29, 2012, two weeks after the trade show, and there was hardly enough time for all the usual feedback cards/RFI's to arrive in the mail.

All things considered, Mr. Sharif still finds it hard to believe that the client he had grown so fond of as they worked closely together would commit suicide. “[There was] unfinished business,” he said. “He had more reasons to live than to die.”

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/m...-bosma-murder-suspect-started-to-dismantle-it

It seems a little weird to pack it in after the first and only trade show the Breslau-based Millardair participated in.

The elder Millard had just finished building a massive million-dollar hangar at the Region of Waterloo International Airport and was planning a grand opening at the time of his death.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...osma_killing_charged_with_2_more_murders.html

It's clear that WM was deeply involved in the management of the MRO, as he worked closely with AS, by AS's account.

DM? He was there, as an impediment that had to be worked around:

“I thought he was just a spoilt little brat who had his way all his life and didn’t appreciate what his father was doing for him,” said Mr. Sharif. “He was an impediment to the hangar operation” who didn’t meet his deadlines, almost never arrived at work before noon, and refused to clear his collection of cars, jeeps, hot rods, jet skis and personal airplanes from the business premises.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/m...-bosma-murder-suspect-started-to-dismantle-it

DM felt WM was needy in his demands, by his account, despite DM's apparent uselessness in AS's view:

[WM] needed me a lot for the business

http://www.cambridgetimes.ca/news-s...dellen-millard-says-he-didn-t-kill-tim-bosma/

Perhaps as the MRO plans were coming to fruition, DM was scared that he would be bound into an onerous worse-than-9-to-5 job.

Once WM was gone, DM became fully responsible for the MRO and couldn't sleep in until noon anymore:

Left to manage that legacy, Millard says he turned his attention to the business — but not without resentment.

“I took it all pretty hard. It was a responsibility I didn’t want at that time. I was angry at (Wayne) for the things I had to do because he wasn’t there to do them.”

http://www.cambridgetimes.ca/news-s...dellen-millard-says-he-didn-t-kill-tim-bosma/

After that, it was back to party time:

[DM] blew cash on massive parties that became renowned among his friends.

“I aspired to that image in some ways because people wanted that of me,” he says pulling up his orange sleeves, revealing large tattoos across both arms that read “I am heaven sent” and “Don’t you dare forget.”

“I threw some parties. I tried to make that a reality for my friends.”

http://www.cambridgetimes.ca/news-s...dellen-millard-says-he-didn-t-kill-tim-bosma/

His Maple Gate home, which police searched after his arrest, was completely customized as a party pad where he and his friends could relax and have fun, featuring a large aquarium stocked with fish and turtles, said Mr. Ménardo.

“He has two maybe three TVs and two X-Boxes just for his friends to play with. He was paying for all of it,” he said.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...-was-always-a-little-different-classmate-says

At least DM could go back to following audacious fashions again:

Dimas recognized [DM] in news photos — especially with the bright red Mohawk, as [DM] frequently had brightly coloured hair as a kid, Dimas said.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/05/19/tim_bosma_neighbours_miss_millards_quiet_mother.html

Of course there is a lot of debate on when you stop being a kid: DM had the red mohawk in 2011 when he was 25. He's alleged to have killed LB when he was 26, and WM and TB when he was 27.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/who-is-dellen-millard-the-accused-in-the-tim-bosma-case-1.1331731

In jail in November, 2014, DM continued with the hair-related attention-seeking behavior:

[DM] had a fu manchu moustache with the ends dangling down off his chin and greasy, chin-length hair.

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/tag/dellen-millard

continued...

 

[SnooperDuper]

Another ransom note constructed from snippets by professional journalists and DM himself - no commentary this time.

“You’re an extension of another life,” he says, speaking of his mother, Madeleine Burns, long divorced from Wayne.

http://www.cambridgetimes.ca/news-s...dellen-millard-says-he-didn-t-kill-tim-bosma/

Burns was present at Dellen’s and Wayne’s house while police investigated the father’s sudden death by a gunshot to the head, which was originally ruled a suicide.

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/tag/madeleine-burns

Police were called to the house that November night before 7 p.m. from within the neighbourhood block, according to an ambulance report obtained by the Star.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...ma_killing_charged_with_2_more_m urders.html

In the summer of 2013, months after her son’s arrest, she told a judge in Toronto small claims court, where she was appearing on Dellen’s behalf, that he was innocent.

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/tag/madeleine-burns

Dellen’s lawyer has stated that Madeleine Burns and the Millard family are certain Wayne’s death was a suicide and not foul play.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/m...-bosma-murder-suspect-started-to-dismantle-it

Dellen Millard then became the chief executive officer of Millardair, with his mother, Madelaine, coming on board as a corporate officer.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...-was-always-a-little-different-classmate-says

According to sources who know the Millard family, police stepped up their pressure on Madeleine Burns not long after the additional charges were laid.

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/tag/madeleine-burns

Dellen Millard's cousin has told me all along that Wayne Millard would never have killed himself.

[video=twitter;454325176831082496]https://twitter.com/liamdevlincasey/status/454325176831082496[/video]

Mr. Sharif says he and others were shocked to learn after the Bosma murder that Wayne had not died from natural causes.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/m...-bosma-murder-suspect-started-to-dismantle-it

Wayne’s family members were not told the cause of his death. A cousin and his aunt were not even notified he had died.

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/201...tigation-into-the-death-of-wayne-millard.html

A source who was on the scene at the Millard family home the night police investigated the death, said that those present included Dellen Millard, his mother and Wayne’s ex-wife, Madeleine Burns, and Dellen Millard’s ex-fiancee, who cannot be named due to a publication ban. As far as I can tell, these are the only people police initially questioned about Wayne Millard’s death. They did not talk to anyone at the multi-million dollar business he had just launched nor do they appear to have spoken to others with whom Wayne Millard had regular, even daily, dealings.

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/201...tigation-into-the-death-of-wayne-millard.html

Here is the full text of the letter Dellen Millard, accused murderer of Tim Bosma, wrote from prison to one of his fans, a 31-year-old woman from the Kitchener area.

My closest friends and family stand by my side, which is really all I need.

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2013/08/dellen-millards-letter-from-jail.html

 

[SnooperDuper]

If MS was living at home his families assets will be included in his application for Legal Aid, just as the chart in the link explains:


Step 1
Certificate eligibility thresholds

You will likely qualify if your annual gross family income is lower than column 1. If it is higher, move to Step 2.

He was apparently living with his mother.

You have to look at the definition of Family Unit, because MS and momma weren't necessarily family:

Family Unit Design

In accordance with the statutory authority, the Family Unit is defined to include the applicant and any other individual who:

1. has a legal obligation to support the applicant; or
2. the applicant is legally obligated to support; or
3. will benefit from the applicant's litigation; or
4. customarily pays for or contributes to the needs of the applicant in matters of similar significance; or
5. voluntarily contributes to the applicant's cost of Legal Aid.

Where support obligations exist, the applicant and the other person are expected to undergo joint financial assessment unless a conflict of interest exists between the parties. Where the applicant and/or other person refuse to be jointly assessed, a Legal Aid Area Director or Area Committee is likely to refuse Legal Aid.

http://www.legalaid.on.ca/en/publications/downloads/Certificate Test EN 1998.pdf

If momma was paying his bills, especially prior legal bills, she might be on the hook. MS was over 18, momma had no legal obligation to support him (nor he, her).

 

[matou]

Amazing work snooper! YOU did your homework! A++

 

[Tamarind]

The Transport Canada certification came through on November 1, 2012

Yes apparently

November 13 - 15, 2012, Millardair was an exhibitor at a trade show in Vancouver, promoting the MRO. Surely they got a lead or two.

Apparently not.

Less than 2 weeks before WM's death, i.e., at the earliest November 16, 2012, after the trade show, AS and DM went to dinner.

Yes, DM was asking where the contracts were, there weren't any apparently.

Note, they did have contracts in negotiation...it wasn't as if they didn't even have a lead. And they'd just come back from a trade show.

But nothing came to pass for some strange reason unknown to us all. IMO

WM died on November 29, 2012, two weeks after the trade show, and there was hardly enough time for all the usual feedback cards/RFI's to arrive in the mail.

That was leaving it late don't you think. AS should have had contracts in the bag way before any trade show. The Millards themselves could have attended the trade show if they hadn't already hired AS.

It seems a little weird to pack it in after the first and only trade show the Breslau-based Millardair participated in.

I doubt that was AS's first opportunity to get business. I would like to know when this guy was first employed by MA.

It's clear that WM was deeply involved in the management of the MRO, as he worked closely with AS, by AS's account.

Not that close if DM was the one trying to get a clear response as to where the contracts were, IMO

DM? He was there, as an impediment that had to be worked around:

hmm, but it was DM who came to question AS not the other way around. Was DM an impediment because he was in AS face trying to get answers? MOO

DM felt WM was needy in his demands, by his account, despite DM's apparent uselessness in AS's view:

useless? by challenging AS and wanting updates on business?

Perhaps as the MRO plans were coming to fruition, DM was scared that he would be bound into an onerous worse-than-9-to-5 job.

DM could have employed someone to manage the books.

Once WM was gone, DM became fully responsible for the MRO and couldn't sleep in until noon anymore:

Why not? Many CEO's arrive late and leave early. Delegation is the key IMO.

After that, it was back to party time:

Where is the proof of that?

At least DM could go back to following audacious fashions again:

One episode of a red mohawk for a Baja adventure is hardly following audacious fashions IMO. Any pics I have seen aside from the Baja days have shown DM in normal attire and with normal hairstyles.

Of course there is a lot of debate on when you stop being a kid: DM had the red mohawk in 2011 when he was 25. He's alleged to have killed LB when he was 26, and WM and TB when he was 27.

Don't many grown men dress up as anything from a pirate to a judge (wig) for Halloween? What about toupees, aren't they for men trying to stay young? What about rock stars, some of their attire can make you look more than once or twice. JMO

In jail in November, 2014, DM continued with the hair-related attention-seeking behavior:

I think there are previous posts that talk about lack of haircare in jails. I haven't seen any real evidence that DM's appearance was in anyway shocking or attention seeking. JMO

 

[Tamarind]

You have to look at the definition of Family Unit, because MS and momma weren't necessarily family:



http://www.legalaid.on.ca/en/publications/downloads/Certificate Test EN 1998.pdf

If momma was paying his bills, especially prior legal bills, she might be on the hook. MS was over 18, momma had no legal obligation to support him (nor he, her).

If momma was paying the hydro bill, then she is paying his bills if he was living there.

 

[SnooperDuper]

If momma was paying the hydro bill, then she is paying his bills if he was living there.

Not if he pays rent or room and board with utilities included

 

[Tamarind]

Another ransom note constructed from snippets by professional journalists and DM himself - no commentary this time.



http://www.cambridgetimes.ca/news-s...dellen-millard-says-he-didn-t-kill-tim-bosma/



http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/tag/madeleine-burns



http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...ma_killing_charged_with_2_more_m urders.html



http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/tag/madeleine-burns



http://news.nationalpost.com/news/m...-bosma-murder-suspect-started-to-dismantle-it



http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...-was-always-a-little-different-classmate-says



http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/tag/madeleine-burns



[video=twitter;454325176831082496]https://twitter.com/liamdevlincasey/status/454325176831082496[/video]



http://news.nationalpost.com/news/m...-bosma-murder-suspect-started-to-dismantle-it



http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/201...tigation-into-the-death-of-wayne-millard.html



http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/201...tigation-into-the-death-of-wayne-millard.html





http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2013/08/dellen-millards-letter-from-jail.html

Thanks for the repeat of this information. Most people who commit suicide never appear to be the type to do so. It comes as no surprise that family would never have guess WM was capable of suicide, so that comment by someone (hearsay actually) can be taken with a pinch of salt IMO.

 

[Tamarind]

Not if he pays rent or room and board with utilities included

Do you have any proof that he did?

 

[SnooperDuper]

Do you have any proof that he did?

MS could be indigent...he might not be...does it matter one way or the other? No one has any proof of MS's situation, so maybe we had just let that be, or agree to talk about it hypothetically.

 

[Alethea Dice]

MS is in jail and has been for over 2 years. It does not matter what he was doing before he was arrested, he is not out on bail and able to collect an income and therefore meets the indigent requirements for legal aid since, to my knowledge, he does not own property or have any considerable assets that would disqualify him. Are there any links to say that he does?

That said, however, does not mean that his lawyer is actually billing legal aid and that his defense is not being paid for by someone else or that Thomas Dungey is not working this case pro bono. Again, I've not seen any indication that this is the case either so if anyone has a link to say how he is being paid I'd like to see it too.

MOO

Let me try to explain where I'm coming from. It has often been posted as fact (by a few people) that MS had no job, no income and/or no assets. Requests for links have never been provided. When the subject came up again, I took the opportunity to again ask for the link since I had never seen it provided earlier. Although I have heard otherwise through the "rumour mill" of his circle, I have never claimed it as fact because it cannot be verified or linked. As I understand it, a link must be provided if something is claimed as a fact and I have always tried to comply. I have never been able to find anything link-able that confirms either way MS's job status or financial status. I am trying to determine which is true. To be fair, I don't think that asking for a link that says he does, and none existing, does anything to prove that the claim he doesn't is "fact". TBH, it gets a little frustrating to have a simple request constantly ignored or tossed back as an "is there a link to prove otherwise?".

So, does anyone of those who think MS didn't work or have any resources have a link to substantiate that belief? Or is this just another one of those things that becomes "fact" by being repeated over and over? I'd really like to know the answer to this.

TIA

 

[SnooperDuper]

Let me try to explain where I'm coming from. It has often been posted as fact (by a few people) that MS had no job, no income and/or no assets. Requests for links have never been provided. When the subject came up again, I took the opportunity to again ask for the link since I had never seen it provided earlier. Although I have heard otherwise through the "rumour mill" of his circle, I have never claimed it as fact because it cannot be verified or linked. As I understand it, a link must be provided if something is claimed as a fact and I have always tried to comply. I have never been able to find anything link-able that confirms either way MS's job status or financial status. I am trying to determine which is true. To be fair, I don't think that asking for a link that says he does, and none existing, does anything to prove that the claim he doesn't is "fact". TBH, it gets a little frustrating to have a simple request constantly ignored or tossed back as an "is there a link to prove otherwise?".

So, does anyone of those who think MS didn't work or have any resources have a link to substantiate that belief? Or is this just another one of those things that becomes "fact" by being repeated over and over? I'd really like to know the answer to this.

TIA

You're right, for all we know, he could be a lovable couch-surfing millionaire.

Does it matter whether MS has money or not? Why?

 

[matou]

You're right, for all we know, he could be a lovable couch-surfing millionaire.

Does it matter whether MS has money or not? Why?

Well if he is a millionaire and he didn't transfer over all of it to his mother within days (remember, he was arrested later and had time to do this) or other family member, he will likely pay it out in a civil wrongful death suit. JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

You're right, for all we know, he could be a lovable couch-surfing millionaire.

Does it matter whether MS has money or not? Why?

I was asking the people who claimed that he did not work. Being a millionaire has nothing to do with the question. Thanks anyway.

If it doesn't matter to you, that's fine. Feel free to ignore. But I would like to know for my own reasons, so I'm asking.

 

[Tamarind]

Perhaps because of the botched investigation of the murders of LB and WM, government will be sued and be the one to pay, from the backs of the taxpayer.

LB may be alive and WM may well be ruled a suicide, again. IMO

I expect that after the criminal trials have concluded, just as in the RW and RP cases, victims will sue civilly to ensure justice is served to the full extent possible under Canadian law. If the victims are reticent, I am sure a lawyer will guide them.

I doubt reticence will be the problem, if someone feels they have a right.. I think an appeal and all that may follow could be. Would take years. I dont think money should be a driving force for justice even IF guilt were evident, Just my opinion.

DM can only be punished by life imprisonment once - but he is alleged to have killed three times.

Is justice really fulfilled by that one criminal penalty, life imprisonment, which can only truly be levied once, in the face of three murders?

He hasnt been convicted and may not be. We shall have to wait for the trial and see what the outcome is before dissecting his bank account. IMO

DM also used his many assets provided by his wealth to commit this crime. The incinerator, Yukon, trailer, hangar, farm property were all owned by DM and that was made possible by his wealth, so why not remove his wealth if he used it as a tool of crime?

What about a pyre, that would have been cheaper. A U Haul could have done the same as a Yukon and trailer . There is enough open space out there to hide a body, the farm was not a necessity, which is one of the reasons I find this all a bit too strategically placed to be true IMHO

Why not punish DM financially, if his financial situation made it possible to commit these crimes?]

How would his financial situation enable him to commit such alleged crimes?

]Anyway, it's quite possible DM and MB will keep all the cash from everything he rightfully owned outright (i.e., not his inheritance) and you, the Ontario taxpayer, will remunerate his victims, just as happened in the RP civil case. IMO.

Or he may be innocent and no-one will pay anything at all.

RSBM