General Discussion and Theories #4

[SnooperDuper]

Why would DM need a lawyer in CN's trial? Is there some evidence to support the idea that he's paying for her lawyer or is that a rumour? And wouldn't the gun charge get wrapped into the same trial as the murder it was allegedly used for?

Surely there will be something to keep the lawyers busy.

RP was at CN's hearings as an observer. DM has to foot the bill for that.

Ravin Pillay, part of the legal team defending Dellen Millard, attended all three days of the hearing, usually in the company of one or two young lawyers or law students.

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2014/08/bail-decision-for-christina-noudga-on-friday-august-8.html

Don't people who have a debt that they have no chance of paying off file for bankruptcy? What would stop DM and MS from doing the same? Personally I've never heard of someone's debts piling up against them and tripling while they were incarcerated long term, so that they get out to a crippling debt that would give them the incentive to commit more crimes. They whole point of calling it 'paying one's debt to society' isn't so that they come out to a new debt that they can never repay, in my opinion.

There are certain classes of debt that cannot be erased by a bankruptcy. Government-backed student loans, debts to the CRA, any fines or judgement against you from a court of law. If MS had a multi-million dollar judgment against him, it would destroy his ability to reap his earnings for the rest of his life. He'd never be able to shake this debt unless he was able to pay it off. That's what I mean by "worse than broke". There is a hell on earth, and it is to be a free man burdened by debts beyond his ability to amend. (Of course you can never make amends for murder.) I worked with a guy who had had his business tank and as CEO he was tagged with over a million dollars in liability that he could not discharge through bankruptcy. I can tell you I know what a walking dead man looks like.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Here’s why I don’t get that DM is getting punished more because he has money.

He has liquidated around $12M in real estate assets. He faces legal bills (including DP’s $700/hr) on three cases. Let’s say his defense costs him 3 x $1M. He’s got $9M left.

Suppose he faces two $7.6M wrongful death lawsuits (like RW’s) against DM/MB, MS, and LE and just for easy math the damages are split three ways equally. That’s 2 X $2.5M = $5M. He’s got $4M left.

Suppose WM’s rightful heirs sue and get back half the hangar and whatever else was in WM’s name. That’s at least $3M. DM might have less than a million left, and some of that is going to go to legal bills for the three civil suits.

So he’s lost everything, just like that, but he might have a few hundred thousand dollars left, which is nothing to sniff at if you’re going to invest it for 25,50,75 years

MS on the other hand, is facing his own huge legal bills, and no doubt a debt to Legal Aid. Anything owing to Legal Aid cannot be erased by declaring a bankruptcy, and in fact, the government can claw back payments by taking your tax refund and benefits. He’s stuck with that debt.

Imagine MS is hit with the same $5M in judgments. Like the Legal Aid bill, bankruptcy is no option, and MS simply will have that debt hanging around his neck like a stone. If he were to get out in 25 years and start again at the bottom, any low income tax benefits that might help him rebuild his life would go to his Legal Aid balance. He’d never be able to accumulate money. He’d never have financial security. He’d constantly face pressures driving him closer to the poverty line.

So who would you rather be: the rich guy that could lose all of his money, or the guy who had none to begin with?

 

[Alethea Dice]

I though that the necessary requirement for skipping the preliminary hearings was that the evidence is strong, not that public sentiment is strong. The whole point of the court system is to have accused persons judged in a way that is based on facts and not public outcries. If public sentiment dictated justice, lynchings and mob justice would rule.

Justice is is not being served any quicker for the Bosmas because of the direct indictment, from what we have already learned here, and if that were the case, then why would LB get a lower priority as a victim?

That is a requirement for a direct indictment, as the Attorney General herself stated, and as set out in the Crown Policy Manual.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/07/16/immediate_trial_doesnt_guarantee_verdict_in_tim_bosma_murder_case.html

Before requesting the Attorney General or Deputy Attorney General’s consent,
Crown counsel must have concluded that there is a reasonable prospect of
conviction and that the continuation of the prosecution is not contrary to the
public interest.

https://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/crim/cpm/2005/DirectIndictment.pdf

The others are just reasons why a direct indictment might be requested. But then, when would the Crown ever think there wasn't a reasonable prospect of conviction.

And you're right. It doesn't happen any quicker, at least not sooner enough to be noticeable. It didn't happen in the Rafferty case and it didn't happen in this case. About three years seems to be the standard, whether there's a preliminary trial or not.

JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/tag/madeleine-burns

MB is vouching for the fact that WM's death is a suicide, providing an alibi for DM.

Where does that link say that MB has provided an alibi for DM in WM's death? What was the small claims court case about? I would think that was what she was saying he was innocent of. He hadn't even been charged with WM's death yet at that point. That small claims court was in the summer of 2013. Nowhere does it say that she is claiming that WM's death is a suicide or that she has provided an alibi for him.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Well Harper's tough-on-crime legislation means he could be sentenced to 75 years. If DM had a judgement against him that was more than his fortune, the debt would double or triple in value.

You also need to ask yourself, is there anyone who has provided an alibi for DM who stands to gain financially in this situation?

The answer is yes.

You seem to be continuously accusing this person. If, as you say, all his millions are being used up for his defense, then how is she gaining financially? I'd also still like to see a link that shows this person has provided an alibi for DM. The only person I've seen that "may have" provided an alibi is CN and she has been charged and has not gained financially.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Well there is a good chance that both DM and MS will end up broker than broke, by which I mean deep in debt.

DM needs lawyers in 5 cases: TB, LB, WM, and the gun case and CN's case. His defense might cost him millions.

He then might face civil suits in the three deaths: in the WM case, to recover what DM inherited from WM and return it to the rightful heir; in the LB and TB cases, wrongful death suits.

I imagine since WM and DM both held Millard Property Holdings that DM would lose half of that...the hangar is part of that so that's a loss of at least $3M. Wasn't the 6-plex part of that too? Half of that is $1.5M.

Is DM really going to have anything left? Once all the suits are resolved, will DM be any richer than MS?

Maybe the justice in this will be that both DM and MS will end up penniless and without their freedoms.

Not that it matters, but I imagine the value of the hangar would be based on what it sold for, not what it cost to build. Do we know how much it sold for?

According to the real estate copies posted in the properties thread, DM purchased the 6-plex for $1 million plus. Even if the mortgage was to WM, that could have been paid off to the Estate when the property sold. The rest would be his.

JMO

 

[SnooperDuper]

Not that it matters, but I imagine the value of the hangar would be based on what it sold for, not what it cost to build. Do we know how much it sold for?

According to the real estate copies posted in the properties thread, DM purchased the 6-plex for $1 million plus. Even if the mortgage was to WM, that could have been paid off to the Estate when the property sold. The rest would be his.

JMO

The hangar cost $9.5M to build and I doubt it sold for that...it was supposed to cost $6M so I used that number

After shelling out a reported $9.5 million to build one of the largest hangars at Region of Waterloo International Airport, Millard Air paid $19,000 per year on a 50-year lease for the facility.

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/chartri...ormer-millard-air-hangar-councillor-1.2310027

 

[SnooperDuper]

You seem to be continuously accusing this person. If, as you say, all his millions are being used up for his defense, then how is she gaining financially? I'd also still like to see a link that shows this person has provided an alibi for DM. The only person I've seen that "may have" provided an alibi is CN and she has been charged and has not gained financially.

So you agree DM might have squandered his fortune? I guess if anyone wanted to preserve it, it would be best for DM to plead guilty and settle the civil cases out of court.

It's ironic that DM may end up less well off than some of the friends he so generously treated to the good life in the end. I hope they all repay the favour, and don't forget about him in jail.

 

[Juballee]

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/tag/madeleine-burns

MB is vouching for the fact that WM's death is a suicide, providing an alibi for DM.

Unless MB was there when it happened, how could she vouch for a suicide? She's a witness after the fact, not the coroner.

 

[Sillybilly]

Unless MB was there when it happened, how could she vouch for a suicide? She's a witness after the fact, not the coroner.

She can't vouch for manner of death, but by vouching that DM was with her that evening, she provides an alibi for him in a murder scenario.

If she is in fact DM's alibi for the night that WM died, then WM either committed suicide or someone other than DM killed him. We have yet to know whether or not the ex-fiance has corroborated the alibi. We also don't know whether the coroner was able to determine WM's time of death (which could factor in significantly to a timeline for the evening out.)

Either way, MB has provided the alibi (whether credible or non-credible) -- we just won't know until trial whether it is corroborated by the ex-fiancé or able to be substantiated by some other means.

 

[Juballee]

I agree SB, in order to say whether or not she is claiming to be his alibi depends on the coroner and his determination of the time of death, and also the amount of time that she spent with him. Since we do not know the answer to either of those factors, we therefore cannot say with certainty that she is vouching for a suicide by confirming his alibi, in my opinion.

 

[Arnie M]

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/tag/madeleine-burns

MB is vouching for the fact that WM's death is a suicide, providing an alibi for DM.

I am not able to read it that way Snooper ..... the case about WM was not even on the table yet

When MB told the judge DM was innocent , for all we know it could have been :
--- in regard to the civil matter in small claims court
--- or the murder of TB .... which (in her thinking) could be true (if he told her) that MS did the actual killing.

And as far as her being there when police investigated WM's death , does not mean she was there when he died.

Most likely DM called her to come over because that is the only family he has . Calling his ex over did seem weird.

 

[Alethea Dice]

I am not able to read it that way Snooper ..... the case about WM was not even on the table yet

When MB told the judge DM was innocent , for all we know it could have been :
--- in regard to the civil matter in small claims court
--- or the murder of TB .... which (in her thinking) could be true (if he told her) that MS did the actual killing.

And as far as her being there when police investigated WM's death , does not mean she was there when he died.

Most likely DM called her to come over because that is the only family he has . Calling his ex over did seem weird.

I totally agree, which is what I pointed out a couple of days ago.

We know that the charges for WM's death were not laid until some 8 to 10 months after the civil court case took place. We know that a source said both MB and the ex-fiance were at the house while LE investigated. What we don't know is whether either or both were with him earlier that day or just arrived after WM was found. We don't know who was together prior to that, or whether both arrived together or separately. We don't know a time of death or whether one was even determined, and therefore, we don't know who was where or who was with whom when the death occurred.

Personally, I don't know why the topic of TB's death, and DM's guilt or innocence, would even come up in a civil court case either. The most logical is that any claim of innocence was in regard to the civil suit.

JMO

 

[SnooperDuper]

4 days until DM's milestone 30th birthday
8 days to next court date in the TB case, September 3
Just under 21 weeks until trial January 18

 

[SnooperDuper]

DM is alleged to have murdered his father (familicide) and his girlfriend (uxoricide).

The study found men who commit spontaneous domestic homicides, as they are known, have more severe mental illness and particularly psychotic disorders than other people.

They also tend to have fewer previous convictions, are less intelligent and have more cognitive impairment.

'These crimes are often preventable if family members are more informed about the potential danger from having someone who is severely mentally ill in the home and who may have shown violent tendencies in the past.

'Family members may lull themselves into a state of false beliefs thinking "my son would never hurt me"

Dr Elizabeth Yardley from Birmingham City University,and Real Crime magazine recently highlighted five key traits of serial killers:

Power Junkie
Intent on exerting some kind of control over the people around them, they often hold back bits of crucial information in a bid to maintain power over the situation, gain attention and assert a warped sense of authority.

Manipulator
Apparent vulnerability and the need to please have been used time and time again by serial killers as a way of hiding a sinister personality.

Egotist
Egoistical serial killers often can’t help but brag about atrocities they’ve committed, whether it’s aimed at their accomplices, the next victim, law enforcement, or just themselves.

Superficial charmer
Serial killers tend to have a good grasp of other people’s emotions and are quick to pick up on vulnerabilities in order to convince them into doing things they normally would not.

Average Joe
Possibly the scariest trait of all, many serial killers look like a pillar of the community on first sight as a way of gaining trust.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ical-traits-men-murder-partners-children.html

 

[Juballee]

DM is alleged to have murdered his father (familicide) and his girlfriend (uxoricide).







http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ical-traits-men-murder-partners-children.html

Fun Fact: DM's girlfriend is alive and well, her initials are CN. The person I believe being referred to would be LB, whom he did not have a traditional dating relationship with, according to police.

" Homicide detective Mike Carbone said Ms. Babcock, 23, and Mr. Millard, 27, were “romantically linked, although I would not say they had a traditional dating relationship.” "

http://news.nationalpost.com/toronto/dellen-millard

In my opinion, calling LB his girlfriend just confuses the situation at this point, although I understand the point being made. I just happen to disagree with it, since domestic violence and domestic homicides have a common factor; victim and aggressor both residing in the same domicile, hence the word domestic. Which was also not the case with LB and DM, according to what we know.

"The next day, Babcock contacted high school friend Nicole MacLeod, again looking for a place to stay."

http://t.thestar.com/#/article/news...ck_leaves_lingering_questions_for_police.html

I also think that someone would have noticed and mentioned by now if DM had cognitive impairment or sever mental illness, nor has there been any mention of him having violent tendencies in the past. That list of personality traits of serial killers also matches the dominant personality traits of upper tier businessmen, politicians, evangelical preachers, terrorists, actors, trophy hunting dentists, the list goes on and on. The point is that it matches a certain percentage of the population that are not serial killers, and that we haven't seen enough evidence of all of these traits in either DM or MS to make that judgement yet, in my opinion.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Fun Fact: DM's girlfriend is alive and well, her initials are CN.

All indications are that CN has moved on: the press is calling her DM's "once-girlfriend" (as opposed to the previous characterization of her as a two-timed girlfriend) as of CN's bail hearing:

Two other suspects — Mark Smich, co-accused in Bosma’s death, and Millard’s once-girlfriend, Christina Noudga — have now been dragged further under a microscope with additional charges

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...osma_killing_charged_with_2_more_murders.html

Noudga’s former boyfriend, Dellen Millard, 28, of Toronto, and his friend Mark Smich, 26, of Oakville, are facing first-degree murder charges in Bosma’s death.

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/08/08/girlfriend-in-tim-bosma-case-gets-bail

The one-time girlfriend of Dellen Millard has been granted bail while she awaits trial.

http://www.chch.com/bosma-accused-noudga-gets-bail/

The 22 year old is the former girlfriend of Dellen Millard, who along with Mark Smich, has been charged with first degree murder following the disappearance of murder of Bosma whose burned remains were found at a farm in the Waterloo-area.

http://www.900chml.com/2015/02/18/30244/

Surely now that her parents have laid out $100k and a promise to keep her on the straight and narrow, she has given up on DM and intends to testify against him in order to save her own bacon.

The person I believe being referred to would be LB, whom he did not have a traditional dating relationship with, according to police.

Seems like DM had a harem: CN, LB, the ex-fiancee, the yacht girls...

In my opinion, calling LB his girlfriend just confuses the situation at this point, although I understand the point being made. I just happen to disagree with it, since domestic violence and domestic homicides have a common factor; victim and aggressor both residing in the same domicile, hence the word domestic. Which was also not the case with LB and DM, according to what we know.

Calling LB DM's girlfriend, a label the press has adapted wholeheartedly, simply adds clarity to DM's relationships with women: he didn't stick to one.

I also think that someone would have noticed and mentioned by now if DM had cognitive impairment or sever mental illness, nor has there been any mention of him having violent tendencies in the past. That list of personality traits of serial killers also matches the dominant personality traits of upper tier businessmen, politicians, evangelical preachers, terrorists, actors, trophy hunting dentists, the list goes on and on. The point is that it matches a certain percentage of the population that are not serial killers, and that we haven't seen enough evidence of all of these traits in either DM or MS to make that judgement yet, in my opinion.

Well who is to say that DM's many exes don't consider him to be a total psychopath?

To be fair, the article is from the Daily Mail, so it is pop culture/pop psychology. OTOH the Mail is the most read news website in the world http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-16746785 so its pop ideas are among the most widely disseminated.

 

[Juballee]

All indications are that CN has moved on: the press is calling her DM's "once-girlfriend" (as opposed to the previous characterization of her as a two-timed girlfriend) as of CN's bail hearing:



http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...osma_killing_charged_with_2_more_murders.html



http://www.torontosun.com/2014/08/08/girlfriend-in-tim-bosma-case-gets-bail



http://www.chch.com/bosma-accused-noudga-gets-bail/



http://www.900chml.com/2015/02/18/30244/

Surely now that her parents have laid out $100k and a promise to keep her on the straight and narrow, she has given up on DM and intends to testify against him in order to save her own bacon.



Seems like DM had a harem: CN, LB, the ex-fiancee, the yacht girls...



Calling LB DM's girlfriend, a label the press has adapted wholeheartedly, simply adds clarity to DM's relationships with women: he didn't stick to one.



Well who is to say that DM's many exes don't consider him to be a total psychopath?

To be fair, the article is from the Daily Mail, so it is pop culture/pop psychology. OTOH the Mail is the most read news website in the world http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-16746785 so its pop ideas are among the most widely disseminated.

I agree, SD, CN is probably an ex girlfriend by now, but at the time of his arrest and I believe at the time of LB's disappearance, CN was considered his 'girlfriend', in the media reports and that was the distinction I was making. I actually don't recall a lot of media reports calling LB and DM boyfriend and girlfriend, only variations on that same 'romantically linked' quote. I am sure someone will find some links that call her his girlfriend, I just personally think for the sake of clarity and continuity, we should continue to distinguish between the two the same way we have here all along.

A harem is a group of wives or mistresses of one man all living together in one common quarters, and I do not think that applies to men who date more than one woman these days. I think mutually exclusive dating is a whole other category in today's dating scene, dating certainly doesn't follow the same rules it followed when most of us when young.

Who is to say that none of us here have exes whom we think are totally psycho, or vice versa? That is a common expression in western society, the way I hear people talk. And most of those people are not actually murderers, from what I know.

In in my personal opinion, how widely disseminated information has been spread is not an indication of its correctness or factuality. How far and wide are ideas like 'lemmings commit mass suicide' spread before the truth goes just as far?

 

[SnooperDuper]

I agree, SD, CN is probably an ex girlfriend by now, but at the time of his arrest and I believe at the time of LB's disappearance, CN was considered his 'girlfriend', in the media reports and that was the distinction I was making. I actually don't recall a lot of media reports calling LB and DM boyfriend and girlfriend, only variations on that same 'romantically linked' quote. I am sure someone will find some links that call her his girlfriend, I just personally think for the sake of clarity and continuity, we should continue to distinguish between the two the same way we have here all along.

There are a ton of links referring to LB as girlfriend or ex-girlfriend, because that's what she was.

A harem is a group of wives or mistresses of one man all living together in one common quarters, and I do not think that applies to men who date more than one woman these days. I think mutually exclusive dating is a whole other category in today's dating scene, dating certainly doesn't follow the same rules it followed when most of us when young.

Sexually transmitted diseases still follow the same rules as they always did. It's never been safe to indiscriminately have sex with many partners. LB was not a one-night stand; DM "kept her around and gave her drugs". http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...a-death-faces-2-more-murder-charges-1.2605741 LB was DM's sexual partner and girlfriend.

Who is to say that none of us here have exes whom we think are totally psycho, or vice versa? That is a common expression in western society, the way I hear people talk. And most of those people are not actually murderers, from what I know.

But neither are they good people, these non-psychiatrically-diagnosed-but-socially-labelled "psychos".

In in my personal opinion, how widely disseminated information has been spread is not an indication of its correctness or factuality. How far and wide are ideas like 'lemmings commit mass suicide' spread before the truth goes just as far?

It just shows that society considered LB to be DM's girlfriend, just as CN was.

 

[Tamarind]

There are a ton of links referring to LB as girlfriend or ex-girlfriend, because that's what she was.



Sexually transmitted diseases still follow the same rules as they always did. It's never been safe to indiscriminately have sex with many partners. LB was not a one-night stand; DM "kept her around and gave her drugs". http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...a-death-faces-2-more-murder-charges-1.2605741 LB was DM's sexual partner and girlfriend.



But neither are they good people, these non-psychiatrically-diagnosed-but-socially-labelled "psychos".



It just shows that society considered LB to be DM's girlfriend, just as CN was.

I dont get that impression. Girlfriends can be simply friends, they can be one night stands or be around for a few nights. They can last a week a month or a year or more with several options in between. You dont see any pics other than the one with SL and some friends at a dining place of DM and LB, unlike the pics of CN and DM. LB appears to be someone who moved around a lot in social circles and living accommodations. I do not see her on the same plain as CN when referring to girlfriend/girl friend. JMO