General Discussion and Theories #4

[Tamarind]

.

After the court cases are completed , it will be interesting to see if mental health issues , denial , suicide , or pharmacy actually played any part .

.

I think all of the above apply in some way, although my opinion of how they apply may differ.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Maybe like me he didn''t agree with Dignitas. Maybe he felt that sad he just wanted out.
Angry and cruel? More like fed up with being drink dependent and depressed more likely, in my opinion, if he committed suicide.

It is hard to make generalized opinions on mental health issues as there are so many different types.

Is this really how WM would have wanted to leave things, without warning, with a grand opening of the hangar coming in the future?

“I took it all pretty hard. It was a responsibility I didn’t want at that time. I was angry at (Wayne) for the things I had to do because he wasn’t there to do them.”

http://www.cambridgetimes.ca/news-s...dellen-millard-says-he-didn-t-kill-tim-bosma/

 

[Arnie M]

.

After the court cases are completed , it will be interesting to see if mental health issues , denial , suicide , or pharmacy actually played any part .

.

I think all of the above apply in some way, although my opinion of how they apply may differ.

There are many forms of denial , sometimes it can be parents who have 20-something sons who have not yet found their way in life , still live at home , never held down a normal job or normal responsibilities ... typically the parents will "deny" there is a problem and just keep feeding and housing them , give them allowances , and keep "hoping for the best". Sometimes it works

But if those 20-something boys all of a sudden get tangled up in 3 serious murder charges the reality can set in pretty quick for those parents , in an instant they realize the ingredients had been building for years , and it hits them like a ton of bricks and the denial ends. Then begins another form of denial ... and often it is legitimate , parents deny to themselves that they raised their children to become murderers , which is usually true , parenting was not to blame

The most fascinating form of denial comes from 3% of the general public , they have no inside information to reveal , no evidence of innocence to present , yet they pontificate that police have made a mistake , the courts have made a mistake , and the news reports are all wrong .

 

[Tamarind]

Is this really how WM would have wanted to leave things, without warning, with a grand opening of the hangar coming in the future?

“I took it all pretty hard. It was a responsibility I didn’t want at that time. I was angry at (Wayne) for the things I had to do because he wasn’t there to do them.”

http://www.cambridgetimes.ca/news-s...dellen-millard-says-he-didn-t-kill-tim-bosma/

Below are the Five Stages of Grief http://www.funeralresources.com/grief-and-loss/five-stages-of-grief/:

' 1. Denial – The first stage of grief is Denial. It is really the first of our reactions to any form of sudden loss. Depending on the relationship we share to the subject of our loss, the more our lives may be uprooted or altered. It is very common for people to try and initially deny the event in order to subconsciously avoid sadness, or the thought of pending mental struggles. People in denial often withdraw from their normal social behavior and become isolated. Denial has no set time frame, or may never be felt at all. However, it is considered the first stage of grief.

2. Anger – The second stage of grief is Anger. People that are grieving often become upset with the person or situation which put them in their grief state. After all, their life could now be in complete disarray. The path of least resistance is anger as opposed to facing the consequences of a loss head on. In the case of death, the anger is often focused toward the deceased for leaving that person behind and unable to cope. Other times people become angry at themselves if they feel they could have done something more to stop the loss from happening.

3. Bargaining – The third stage of grief is Bargaining. This is when those who are grieving are reaching out to the universe to make the pain go away. It is actually very normal, and largely considered to be a sign that they are beginning to comprehend their situation. People will often try to make a deal, or promise to do anything, if the pain will be taken away.

4. Depression – The fourth stage of grief is Depression. Contrary to popular belief, depression is something that may take some time to develop. We often think we are depressed when a grief event first occurs, but there is usually a lot of shock and other emotions present before any real depression can set in. The signs of depression due to grief usually appear when a sense of finality is realized. This is not to be confused with clinical depression, which may be chronic. Depression due to grief is technically episodic, even though it may last for a lengthy period of time.

5. Acceptance – The fifth stage of grief is Acceptance. This is the point where the person experiencing grief no longer is looking backward to try and recover the life they once had with the deceased, or other cause of their grief episode. It is not to say that they no longer feel the vast array of emotions brought on by their grief, but they are ready to embrace the idea that they are reaching a new point in there lives. At this point, they are beginning to understand that there is a new beginning on the horizon.

Acceptance should not be confused with healing or recovering from the loss, since that would put an enormous amount of pressure on people experiencing grief. Acceptance is really the beginning of the real healing process. It is the point where recovery becomes about the person left behind, and not about the person being mourned.
Unfortunately,

There’s No Simple Answer'

Anger is a normal part of grieving

 

[Tamarind]

There are many forms of denial , sometimes it can be parents who have 20-something sons who have not yet found their way in life , still live at home , never held down a normal job or normal responsibilities ... typically the parents will "deny" there is a problem and just keep feeding and housing them , give them allowances , and keep "hoping for the best". Sometimes it works

In some cultures it is absolutely normal for extended families to live under one roof. Some European cultures are not too keen to kick out their offspring as soon as they leave school. Canadians ( generalizing here) seem to find that unacceptable where as other cultures don't. DM's mother was English from Europe. Many Europeans ( that includes English) are quite happy to keep family close. JMO IMO

But if those 20-something boys all of a sudden get tangled up in 3 serious murder charges the reality can set in pretty quick for those parents , in an instant they realize the ingredients had been building for years , and it hits them like a ton of bricks and the denial ends. Then begins another form of denial ... and often it is legitimate , parents deny to themselves that they raised their children to become murderers , which is usually true , parenting was not to blame

This is opinion only, and appears to contain a contradiction. Parents do not raise their children to become murderers. IMO. It has not been proven that DM is a murderer. Placing blame on parents for a childs behaviour is not backed up by anything IMO.

The most fascinating form of denial comes from 3% of the general public , they have no inside information to reveal , no evidence of innocence to present , yet they pontificate that police have made a mistake , the courts have made a mistake , and the news reports are all wrong .

Where do you get this 3 % statistic ?

Lets not pretend that the police always get things right, they don't. They didnt even bother searching for LB until well over a year later. News reports are often wrong, in fact much that is news never makes the news channel. I wonder why that is? It could be said that much of the population does not use critical thinking and base their opinions on what they are told by news/media. Maybe it is they who are in denial. Were the ? 3 % of people who believed in Truscott or Morins innocence in denial? These men paid a high price for the denial by the masses IMO.

 

[SnooperDuper]

In some cultures it is absolutely normal for extended families to live under one roof. Some European cultures are not too keen to kick out their offspring as soon as they leave school. Canadians ( generalizing here) seem to find that unacceptable where as other cultures don't. DM's mother was English from Europe. Many Europeans ( that includes English) are quite happy to keep family close. JMO IMO

You think the English live like Italians or Southeast Asians? Hey, I read the Daily Mail, the only Brits that live mutigenerationally live in council houses on benefits. Was MB very poor growing up?

This is opinion only, and appears to contain a contradiction. Parents do not raise their children to become murderers. IMO. It has not been proven that DM is a murderer. Placing blame on parents for a childs behaviour is not backed up by anything IMO.

DM's parents set the agenda in life and told him who he was to be. They selected a wife for him and built a company for him. I think he fought this all the way. Surely DM's battle for self-identity in the face of his parent's wishes affected the outcome of his life. He needed to be someone big and famous to please his legacy-seeking parents...it's just that he decided that he was going to be big in crime, IMO.

Where do you get this 3 % statistic ?

Lets not pretend that the police always get things right, they don't. They didnt even bother searching for LB until well over a year later. News reports are often wrong, in fact much that is news never makes the news channel. I wonder why that is? It could be said that much of the population does not use critical thinking and base their opinions on what they are told by news/media. Maybe it is they who are in denial. Were the ? 3 % of people who believed in Truscott or Morins innocence in denial? These men paid a high price for the denial by the masses IMO.

There were far more people that believed in the innocence of Morin or Truscott, don't kid yourself.

Here's some critical thinking reading for you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology

 

[SnooperDuper]

I thought this was intresting: a list of reasons why people do NOT commit suicide from the Ontario Association for Suicide Prevention http://www.ospn.ca/index.php/suicide-prevention/personal-protective-factors. I highlighted some factors that seem to be true for WM.

PERONAL PROTECTIVE FACTORS

• Attitudes, values, and norms prohibiting suicide e.g. strong beliefs about the meaning and value of life (pro-life animal activist)
• Social skills e.g. decision-making, problem-solving, and anger management
• Good health and access to mental and physical health care
• Strong connections to friends, family, and supportive significant others
• Cultural, religious or spiritual beliefs that discourage suicide
• A healthy fear of risky behaviors and pain (WM liked the couch)
• Hope for the future; optimism (hangar grand opening)
• Sobriety
• Medical compliance and a sense of the importance of health and wellness
• Impulse control
• Strong sense of self-worth or self-esteem
• Sense of personal control or determination (Worth at least $12M, WM was in the driver's seat)
• Access to a variety of clinical interventions and support for help seeking
• Coping skills
• Resiliency
• Reasons for living (the MRO, guiding DM)
• Being married or a parent (to DM)

EXTERNAL/ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTIVE FACTORS

• Strong relationships, particularly with family members (DM claims they were close and he loved WM)
• Opportunities to participate in and contribute to school and/or community projects/activities (become part of the Waterloo airport community)
• A reasonably safe and stable environment (lived in the same house for decades)
• Restricted access to lethal means
• Responsibilities/duties to others (the MRO, guiding DM)
• Pets (lots of 'em!)

 

[Alethea Dice]

You think the English live like Italians or Southeast Asians? Hey, I read the Daily Mail, the only Brits that live mutigenerationally live in council houses on benefits. Was MB very poor growing up?



DM's parents set the agenda in life and told him who he was to be. They selected a wife for him and built a company for him. I think he fought this all the way. Surely DM's battle for self-identity in the face of his parent's wishes affected the outcome of his life. He needed to be someone big and famous to please his legacy-seeking parents...it's just that he decided that he was going to be big in crime, IMO.



There were far more people that believed in the innocence of Morin or Truscott, don't kid yourself.

Here's some critical thinking reading for you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology

Well, they don't call it the Daily Fail for nothing. Statistics last year - 32% of men and 19% of women age 20 to 34 still lived at home.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/family-demography/young-adults-living-with-parents/2013/sty-young-adults.html

I don't consider two friends setting up their son and daughter as "selecting a wife" (or husband) for either. Lots of people set up mutual friends/family without considering it as choosing their life partner. It's just another way to meet eligible people.

JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

There are many forms of denial , sometimes it can be parents who have 20-something sons who have not yet found their way in life , still live at home , never held down a normal job or normal responsibilities ... typically the parents will "deny" there is a problem and just keep feeding and housing them , give them allowances , and keep "hoping for the best". Sometimes it works

But if those 20-something boys all of a sudden get tangled up in 3 serious murder charges the reality can set in pretty quick for those parents , in an instant they realize the ingredients had been building for years , and it hits them like a ton of bricks and the denial ends. Then begins another form of denial ... and often it is legitimate , parents deny to themselves that they raised their children to become murderers , which is usually true , parenting was not to blame

The most fascinating form of denial comes from 3% of the general public , they have no inside information to reveal , no evidence of innocence to present , yet they pontificate that police have made a mistake , the courts have made a mistake , and the news reports are all wrong .

What about the denial from the ? percentage of the public who are convinced of guilt, even when they have no inside information, no evidence of guilt, nothing to base their absolute belief on other than an arrest - as in the case of WM and LB, in which none of the evidence has yet been released to the public?

JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

I thought this was intresting: a list of reasons why people do NOT commit suicide from the Ontario Association for Suicide Prevention http://www.ospn.ca/index.php/suicide-prevention/personal-protective-factors. I highlighted some factors that seem to be true for WM.

WM doesn't get a very good score on that list, even from the ones you've bolded:

- Being against cruelty/death to animals that can't defend themselves isn't exactly indicative of someone's belief in the meaning and value of their own life
- WM seemed to be fine with risky behavior or he wouldn't have been filming the seal hunts and the risks that came with it
- His hope for the future with the hangar may have died off some by that time since they hadn't managed to obtain any customers
- If he had so much control and determination, why was he seemingly so willing to let DM handle the final investment?
- Again, how is the MRO a reason for living when all it was doing was costing more money?
- He wasn't really becoming an active part of the Waterloo airport community if he was sending DM to the meetings
- He may have lived in the same house for decades, but it takes more than that for a "safe and stable environment", and alcohol doesn't really contribute to it too well
- Responsibilities? IIRC, he made it pretty clear that the MRO was DM's baby

All JMO.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Well, they don't call it the Daily Fail for nothing. Statistics last year - 32% of men and 19% of women age 20 to 34 still lived at home.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/family-demography/young-adults-living-with-parents/2013/sty-young-adults.html

So do you have any stats on the % of these adults that are in council houses and on benefits? It's a benefits nation.

I don't consider two friends setting up their son and daughter as "selecting a wife" (or husband) for either. Lots of people set up mutual friends/family without considering it as choosing their life partner. It's just another way to meet eligible people.

JMO

Trust me, it's different when you're mom's in on it.

 

[SnooperDuper]

WM doesn't get a very good score on that list, even from the ones you've bolded:

- Being against cruelty/death to animals that can't defend themselves isn't exactly indicative of someone's belief in the meaning and value of their own life

If someone values the lives of the animals more than their own, wouldn't they be known for a Vegan diet, not wearing leather, not owning and driving a Hummer and so forth?

- WM seemed to be fine with risky behavior or he wouldn't have been filming the seal hunts and the risks that came with it

That was 32 years ago. He's an old man that liked the couch, a drink, and drawn blinds.

- His hope for the future with the hangar may have died off some by that time since they hadn't managed to obtain any customers

Everybody seemed to think that WM was continuing to move forward and be optimistic: he was even planning a Grand Opening.

- If he had so much control and determination, why was he seemingly so willing to let DM handle the final investment?

He was controlling DM and the MRO, together, teaching DM how to run a business.

- Again, how is the MRO a reason for living when all it was doing was costing more money?

Now, but what about the future? Has not the Waterloo Regional Airport just continued to grow and grow and grow since the hangar was ready for occupancy? (I mean aside from MA, which tanked when WM died. See, that's why WM had to be around for the point above, because DM was immediately willing to admit he couldn't do it on his own when he closed the business.)

- He wasn't really becoming an active part of the Waterloo airport community if he was sending DM to the meetings

People knew who WM was and AS spoke of working with him. He was obviously there and involved.

- He may have lived in the same house for decades, but it takes more than that for a "safe and stable environment", and alcohol doesn't really contribute to it too well

So I guess the unsafe and unstable aspects might come from DM and MS? Did WM fear them? Was he right to fear them, seeing as he turned up dead and a suspected murder victim?

- Responsibilities? IIRC, he made it pretty clear that the MRO was DM's baby

All JMO.

Left to manage that legacy, Millard says he turned his attention to the business — but not without resentment.

“I took it all pretty hard. It was a responsibility I didn’t want at that time. I was angry at (Wayne) for the things I had to do because he wasn’t there to do them.”

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...didnt_kill_tim_bosma_exclusive_interview.html

If WM wasn't heavily involved in the MRO, what were "the things [DM] had to do because [WM] wasn’t there to do them", that DM was angry about?

If WM wasn't involved, how did DM motivate himself to attend to the "responsibility [he] didn't want", like WM's "baby" (the MRO) was the result of an unwanted pregnancy?

 

[Tamarind]

If someone values the lives of the animals more than their own, wouldn't they be known for a Vegan diet, not wearing leather, not owning and driving a Hummer and so forth?

Quite possibly yes. But no-ones life can be denigrated to being known for just that, there is a lot more to the human state than that IMHO. If that's all people can see then people must be quite shallow these days. IMO

That was 32 years ago. He's an old man that liked the couch, a drink, and drawn blinds.

I thought most men liked a couch, a drink and drawing the blinds, not all for the same reason of course. Just because he may not have been agile enough to keep up with animal rights protests doesn't mean that he was immune to risk. He did take a huge risk with the MRO it seems and it appears to have been at great cost in more ways than one JMO

Everybody seemed to think that WM was continuing to move forward and be optimistic: he was even planning a Grand Opening.
He was controlling DM and the MRO, together, teaching DM how to run a business.

People do plan things to maintain some normality in their lives even before taking their lives, so that doesn't seem odd to me at all. Teaching someone how to run a business is not control IMO, its necessary, if they are going to take it over.

Now, but what about the future? Has not the Waterloo Regional Airport just continued to grow and grow and grow since the hangar was ready for occupancy? (I mean aside from MA, which tanked when WM died. See, that's why WM had to be around for the point above, because DM was immediately willing to admit he couldn't do it on his own when he closed the business.)

The MRO now appears to have someone bringing in the contracts, maybe the contracts were already being lined up along with plans for new ownership. Anythings possible !! DM was not necessarily admitting he couldnt do it he was probably saying he didnt want to do it. I see many reasons for that, not least he had just lost his father.

People knew who WM was and AS spoke of working with him. He was obviously there and involved.

Maybe he placed too much faith in AS.

So I guess the unsafe and unstable aspects might come from DM and MS? Did WM fear them? Was he right to fear them, seeing as he turned up dead and a suspected murder victim?

I dont believe WM had anything to fear from his son JMO.

If WM wasn't heavily involved in the MRO, what were "the things [DM] had to do because [WM] wasn’t there to do them", that DM was angry about?

Anger is a normal part of grief !

If WM wasn't involved, how did DM motivate himself to attend to the "responsibility [he] didn't want", like WM's baby was the result of an unwanted pregnancy?

Excuse me? , where is this info about an unwanted pregnancy coming from? I expect WM, MB and CM were thrilled that Dellen was born. Please post the link that states there was an unwanted pregnancy.

 

[Sillybilly]

Excuse me? , where is this info about an unwanted pregnancy coming from? I expect WM, MB and CM were thrilled that Dellen was born. Please post the link that states there was an unwanted pregnancy.

<rsbm>

I interpret Snooper's comment as an analogy to WM's 'baby' being the MRO and the MRO being the "responsibility [he] didn't want".

 

[SnooperDuper]

Question: did WM have attitudes, values, and norms prohibiting suicide e.g. strong beliefs about the meaning and value of life, e.g., animal life?

Quite possibly yes. But no-ones life can be denigrated to being known for just that, there is a lot more to the human state than that IMHO. If that's all people can see then people must be quite shallow these days. IMO

Question: Did WM have a healthy fear of risky behaviors and pain?

I thought most men liked a couch, a drink and drawing the blinds, not all for the same reason of course. Just because he may not have been agile enough to keep up with animal rights protests doesn't mean that he was immune to risk. He did take a huge risk with the MRO it seems and it appears to have been at great cost in more ways than one JMO

The MRO was not a physical risk to his body.

Question: did WM have hope for the future; optimism ?

People do plan things to maintain some normality in their lives even before taking their lives, so that doesn't seem odd to me at all. Teaching someone how to run a business is not control IMO, its necessary, if they are going to take it over.

So WM had hope for the future, hoping DM would take over the business, thank you.

Question: did WM have a sense of personal control or determination?

The MRO now appears to have someone bringing in the contracts, maybe the contracts were already being lined up along with plans for new ownership. Anythings possible !! DM was not necessarily admitting he couldnt do it he was probably saying he didnt want to do it. I see many reasons for that, not least he had just lost his father.

The MRO failed and shut down and went out of business. Only the hangar was sold, to an entirely different company with a different CEO and that company has been able to make a go of it.

I feel WM had a sense of personal control or determination, because he was in control of $12M and building his family's legacy.

Question: Did WM have reasons for living?

Maybe he placed too much faith in AS.

So WM was so disappointed in AS, that he did not fire AS but killed himself instead?

I dont believe WM had anything to fear from his son JMO.

Anger is a normal part of grief !

So are tears; did DM ever shed any for WM?

Excuse me? , where is this info about an unwanted pregnancy coming from? I expect WM, MB and CM were thrilled that Dellen was born. Please post the link that states there was an unwanted pregnancy.

<modsnip>

 

[Arnie M]

What about the denial from the ? percentage of the public who are convinced of guilt, even when they have no inside information, no evidence of guilt, nothing to base their absolute belief on other than an arrest - as in the case of WM and LB, in which none of the evidence has yet been released to the public?

JMO

I put my faith in the 300 policemen , the 30 news reporters , the numerous court hearings , the substantial pieces of evidence recovered , all those things <modsnip> deny.

But that's just me.

 

[SnooperDuper]

WM only needed one reason to live, and he had many.

 

[SnooperDuper]

New one for ya: a story about crime writers from the Ryerson Review of Journalism

Tamara Cherry moved from writing about crime in The Toronto Sun to reporting crime on television for CTV, covering many high-profile cases in and around Toronto.

Last May, shortly after Dellen Millard was arrested for the murder of Tim Bosma, Cherry revealed that Millard had exchanged 13 phone calls with another missing person, 23-year-old Laura Babcock. Police had access to the phone records, but it was Cherry&#8217;s investigative work that connected these two cases.

http://rrj.ca/murder-she-wrote/

 

[Tamarind]

New one for ya: a story about crime writers from the Ryerson Review of Journalism
http://rrj.ca/murder-she-wrote/

Its a shame she didn't write about the other calls that were repeatedly called. We could have had a few more links to follow IMO.

 

[Tamarind]

WM only needed one reason to live, and he had many.

Maybe people only need one reason to die?