General Discussion and Theories #4

[SnooperDuper]

In in my opinion, there is a big difference between fairy tales and TV dramas and real human beings sharing their personal stories.

Some theorize that over-exposure to the media can desensitize people to make them less likely to distinguish between fantasy and reality. In other words, it can make some people see other humans as just another character to be jeered at or adored, making it easier to add a comment like "Lol" on an human interest article, or to cyber bully people with differing opinions, or to publicly mock a hairstyle that isn't in fashion.

Conflict is great for fiction or gossip, but in reality, conflict causes great distress and pain the world over, and it's not something to laugh about when people are telling their stories of struggle in my opinion. But, as I said, I guess we're all different.

So we should have compassion for murderers and the people who defend them?

Why?

 

[Juballee]

So we should have compassion for murderers and the people who defend them?

Why?

Why does this make it sound like some people think that lawyers who are upholding the constitutional rights of Canadian citizens are somehow exempt from being treated as human beings? Without those lawyers, we would never know if people are truly innocent or guilty. Perhaps a world where no one accused of a crime gets a defence would be preferable to some people, but personally, I prefer to have the right to defend myself with a professional should I ever be accused of a crime. But if it's easier to just hate them all, without ever realizing that they are also human beings, I can see why some people would go that way, it's easier and takes far less thought.

<modsnip>

 

[SnooperDuper]

Why does this make it sound like some people think that lawyers who are upholding the constitutional rights of Canadian citizens are somehow exempt from being treated as human beings? Without those lawyers, we would never know if people are truly innocent or guilty. Perhaps a world where no one accused of a crime gets a defence would be preferable to some people, but personally, I prefer to have the right to defend myself with a professional should I ever be accused of a crime. But if it's easier to just hate them all, without ever realizing that they are also human beings, I can see why some people would go that way, it's easier and takes far less thought.

DM and MS are both being treated as human beings, with warmth, light, fresh food, clean clothes, beds, toilets and sinks...all of their physical needs are being met. They don't have their freedom, but they have everything else, including the right to call, write, or meet with people on a regular basis.

<modsnip>

If you foul up on the job, you can redeem yourself by pulling up your socks, working harder, not making any more mistakes, and doing better. What can you possibly do to redeem yourself for murder? <modsnip> By your view, has DM been punished enough, and we should let him free because surely this scare where he nearly lost all of the many things he had will set him straight and he will never kill again, having redeemed himself by...well, nothing, he still declares his innocence and he's convinced that he is able to convince others of that too, given the jailhouse letters.

Mistake, DM and MS didn't make a mere mistake, they killed someone and you can't undo that.

 

[Tamarind]

DM and MS are both being treated as human beings, with warmth, light, fresh food, clean clothes, beds, toilets and sinks...all of their physical needs are being met. They don't have their freedom, but they have everything else, including the right to call, write, or meet with people on a regular basis.Murderers don't have compassion, so we should feel compassion for them? Isn't compassion with + feeling, sharing in the feelings of others? If murderers have no feel nothing for others, if I seek to share what they feel, I might find I have no compassion for them at all. First degree murder, BTW, is not a "mistake".

It is if the one(s) charged with it, is not guilty. Have you ever heard of crimes of passion? In France it is a valid defense FYI. FWIW. What about the person I know who killed his father. I can assure you the person was not evil, did not do it out of malice or anything other than to protect another. The courts saw it that way too. So when people say murder has no compassion, that would depend entirely on the case IMHO. I don't yet know the full details of the case we are discussing, and as far as DM AND MS, I believe they have rights to a fair trial before being judged as the person I know did. JMO.

<modsnip>

By your view, has DM been punished enough, and we should let him free because surely this scare where he nearly lost all of the many things he had will set him straight and he will never kill again, having redeemed himself by...well, nothing, he still declares his innocence and he's convinced that he is able to convince others of that too, given the jailhouse letters.

Mistake, DM and MS didn't make a mere mistake, they killed someone and you can't undo that.

We don't know that THEY killed anyone, hopefully facts will be revealed at trial. It would be nice to have discussion about all possibilities but again that's JMO.

 

[Tamarind]

I just love when I can make reference to MR's case. Let this video be an excellent example of parent denial at :33, 1:00 and 1:36. She was, and perhaps still is blaming TLM for her adult son abducting, raping, torturing then murdering an innocent little girl. MR had a very shady and troubled life long before TLM came upon the scene. Everyone needs a scapegoat I guess. TLM was MR's scapegoat and that's what his defense tried to hang their hat on because that's all they had. "He's not guilty and it hurts like hell so", then, First of all, my son's innocent, and this could happen to any man that's walking around right now", then, "TLM has wrecked our lives, and I just hope that justice is served and he's freed." Parental denial at its finest. Unfortunately there are way too many parents in denial about their children's bad behaviours. MOO.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/0...hy-defends-son-blames-mclintic_n_1499026.html

Totally different case. Making reference to other cases is fine but it is a different case. The evidence will be different, the people will be different. The witnesses will be different. Unlike TV shows where the same actors play the part of different people. JMO

 

[matou]

This was from earlier this week:

Susan ClairmontVerified account &#8207;@susanclairmont [video=twitter;659086902667157504]https://twitter.com/susanclairmont/status/659086902667157504[/video]
I have popped into ongoing pretrial for Tim #Bosma 1st degree murder case. Hank and Mary Bosma, Tim's parents, are here every single day.

 

[Sillybilly]

Totally different case. Making reference to other cases is fine but it is a different case. The evidence will be different, the people will be different. The witnesses will be different. Unlike TV shows where the same actors play the part of different people. JMO

Yes it is a different case, but each case sets a precedent that is food for thought. It is a valid comparison wrt your comments that DM’s and MS’s moms probably know their sons better than most, and that mothers know more than people think. In the current cases, we have no verdict to compare to, and AFAIK we have no input at all from MS’s mom, and only that MB appeared on DM’s behalf in a civil case and said he was innocent. While we have not heard directly from MB about her belief in DM’s guilt or innocence in the current case, in May of 2013, DP made reference to her sentiments at that time:

From:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...r-tim-bosmas-murder+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Paradkar told reporters Wednesday that Millard’s mother, Madeleine Burns, indicated to him that Dellen was a “good son of good character…someone who is always excelling at things.”

Odds are that Rafferty’s mom and Russ Williams’ mom both thought they knew their sons better than most.

We can only go by historical references in supporting our opinions/beliefs. We really don’t know what the parents think because we don’t have public statements from them or a verdict to compare to in determining whether they are right or wrong .

At least the Lord and Rafferty cases are examples where a verdict has been rendered, and demonstrate how parents just can’t believe their child capable of such horrendous acts, when it was ultimately proven otherwise in a court of law.

JMO

 

[Tamarind]

Yes it is a different case, but each case sets a precedent that is food for thought. It is a valid comparison wrt your comments that DM&#8217;s and MS&#8217;s moms probably know their sons better than most, and that mothers know more than people think. In the current cases, we have no verdict to compare to, and AFAIK we have no input at all from MS&#8217;s mom, and only that MB appeared on DM&#8217;s behalf in a civil case and said he was innocent. While we have not heard directly from MB about her belief in DM&#8217;s guilt or innocence in the current case, in May of 2013, DP made reference to her sentiments at that time

Mothers often do know more than people think. Some are trying to keep sons out of jail, others know they are innocent. Perspective is often the key IMHO

Odds are that Rafferty&#8217;s mom and Russ Williams&#8217; mom both thought they knew their sons better than most.
We can only go by historical references in supporting our opinions/beliefs. We really don&#8217;t know what the parents think because we don&#8217;t have public statements from them or a verdict to compare to in determining whether they are right or wrong .
At least the Lord and Rafferty cases are examples where a verdict has been rendered, and demonstrate how parents just can&#8217;t believe their child capable of such horrendous acts, when it was ultimately proven otherwise in a court of law.

JMO

To minimize TLM role in the MR case is not consistent with what I remember from that case. She was the one who led the child from the school and I believe she admitted to using a hammer on the child. Both are sick in my opinion. If the reference is to how mothers feel then fine. But IMO some just want their sons kept out of jail and others want their actual innocence made known. All MOO

 

[Juballee]

DM and MS are both being treated as human beings, with warmth, light, fresh food, clean clothes, beds, toilets and sinks...all of their physical needs are being met. They don't have their freedom, but they have everything else, including the right to call, write, or meet with people on a regular basis.

<modsnip>

If you foul up on the job, you can redeem yourself by pulling up your socks, working harder, not making any more mistakes, and doing better. What can you possibly do to redeem yourself for murder? <modsnip> By your view, has DM been punished enough, and we should let him free because surely this scare where he nearly lost all of the many things he had will set him straight and he will never kill again, having redeemed himself by...well, nothing, he still declares his innocence and he's convinced that he is able to convince others of that too, given the jailhouse letters.

Mistake, DM and MS didn't make a mere mistake, they killed someone and you can't undo that.

I love it when people tell me my view! Please show the post where I said all the things that are bolded above, thanks in advance!

I was was asked why we should have compassion for people, the question was not whether or not they are being treated as human beings. Compassion is one of the noblest of human characteristics, and I agree with the post which gave the supposition that the lack of it says more about some people and their psychological make up.

Redemtion is not just a religious idea, and it is not a static thing, the limits of what is or is not redeemable are relative to each person. According to our Canadian laws, redemption is possible for even murderers, as they are deemed to have paid their debt to society after serving their sentence. If all of Canadian society thought that there is never to be any redemption for murderers, we would summarily execute them all, and not sentence them to a 25 year sentence with the hopes that they will be rehabilitated by the time of their release.

 

[swedie]

And then there are mothers who know very little about their children once their child becomes a certain age, spending a fair amount of time outside their homes or move out of their parent's house. Or the children of divorced parents where each parent has no idea what goes on in the other parent's house. Or the children who grow up living mainly with one parent and rarely see the other parent. Children will only allow their parents to know so much about them. When I refer to children, I am making reference to children of all ages, including adult children. Children don't go home and announce to their parents they did B&Es of other peoples' homes, businesses and cars, or shoplifted, or vandalized others property, smoke weed and do other drugs, or that they are dealing drugs, or stole someone's HD and trailer, bought illegal guns, or murdered their other parent, or they stole a car and out ran LE, or that they got their girlfriend pregnant so they murdered and disposed of her, or they are cheating on their fiancée with a few other women, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Many parents only find out about their child's wrong doings or unlawful behaviour when their children are caught by LE.

And then there are the parents who don't want to know, figuring the less they know about their children, the better off they are. They don't want to know because it means confrontation and/or turmoil, unwanted stress, anger, grief, sorrow, which disrupts their peace and harmony. And then their are parent who deep down inside know their children are nothing but trouble, but turn a blind eye denying they couldn't have possibly raised such a horrible child. To say parents know their children better than others is IMO a false statement in most cases. It's the people who children spend the most time with, examples: teachers, employees, significant other and friends who tend to know them better than their own mothers/parents.
ALL MOO.

 

[Tamarind]

And then there are mothers who know very little about their children once their child becomes a certain age, spending a fair amount of time outside their homes or move out of their parent's house. Or the children of divorced parents where each parent has no idea what goes on in the other parent's house. Or the children who grow up living mainly with one parent and rarely see the other parent.

Regardless of when children become adult, the core of the child/adult being is usually known by a parent. Children often report back to each parent what happens at the other parents home, whether it is positive or negative. The basic personality of ones child, any of our children, is known to us. I believe this wholeheartedly. Parents know their childs strengths and weaknesses. I also believe some parents will say one thing while believing something else about their children. However, we have not see MB stand out in the public and try to tell the world her son is innocent. She has apparently simply stated this on one occasion, out of the public gaze. MS mother has said nothing.

In the case of MR mother, she may have wanted her son to stay out of jail, she may have wanted him to have a fair trial without any bias and tried to level the playing field. I am not sure how many times she vocalized her belief in her sons innocence, maybe you can fill me in on that Swedie? Shakespeare allegedly once wrote " methinks thou dost protest too much" and maybe that can be attributed to MR mother, but I would not like to judge her as I don't know her or know what her thoughts were/are.

Children will only allow their parents to know so much about them. When I refer to children, I am making reference to children of all ages, including adult children. Children don't go home and announce to their parents they did B&Es of other peoples' homes, businesses and cars, or shoplifted, or vandalized others property, smoke weed and do other drugs, or that they are dealing drugs, or stole someone's HD and trailer, bought illegal guns, or murdered their other parent, or they stole a car and out ran LE, or that they got their girlfriend pregnant so they murdered and disposed of her, or they are cheating on their fiancée with a few other women, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Many parents only find out about their child's wrong doings or unlawful behaviour when their children are caught by LE.

I think a mother may be the one many children turn to when they are in trouble, be it of their own making or due to associations or by wrongful blame. Sometimes children have an innate trust in their mother. A mother also can tell just by looking into a son or daughters eyes, whether they are being told truth. IMO. Anyone who is a decent mother would know/feel that ! IMO

And then there are the parents who don't want to know, figuring the less they know about their children, the better off they are. They don't want to know because it means confrontation and/or turmoil, unwanted stress, anger, grief, sorrow, which disrupts their peace and harmony. And then their are parent who deep down inside know their children are nothing but trouble, but turn a blind eye denying they couldn't have possibly raised such a horrible child. To say parents know their children better than others is IMO a false statement in most cases. It's the people who children spend the most time with, examples: teachers, employees, significant other and friends who tend to know them better than their own mothers/parents.
ALL MOO.

Turning a blind eye is impossible IMO if their son or daughter is sitting in jail. To say that teachers know a child better than a mother makes absolutely no sense to me and work colleagues even less. Significant others are often the last to know anything about a partner. Friends come on different levels, not all know everything about a friend., and why should they.JMO MOO

 

[swedie]

Mothers often do know more than people think. Some are trying to keep sons out of jail, others know they are innocent. Perspective is often the key IMHO



To minimize TLM role in the MR case is not consistent with what I remember from that case. She was the one who led the child from the school and I believe she admitted to using a hammer on the child. Both are sick in my opinion. If the reference is to how mothers feel then fine. But IMO some just want their sons kept out of jail and others want their actual innocence made known. All MOO

Who is minimizing TLM's role? And yes I made it clear in my post, using MR's mother as an example of parental denial. I agree, some mothers want their sons kept out of jail even when they know or have strong indication their son is guilty as charged, it's called denial. Many mothers who know their sons are innocent will go public and be their son's best advocates such as J Milgaard.

And in case you are not aware, TLM did lead Tori to MR's car at MR's request. Just as he parked at a child's house suggesting to TLM he and she could go inside and abduct a little girl for his warped, sexual pleasure. Also, if you know the more about MR, he had a strong penchant for chocking women during sex. There is no doubt in my mind he choked Tori while raping and torturing her. TLM stated Tori had urinated blood which is indicative to internal injury/damage. Between MR raping and choking her, Tori's injuries would have proven fatal. Therefore it is MOO, and not minimizing her role, even without TLM welding that hammer, TS would has succumbed to death by MR's evil acts alone. They are both equally evil and disturbed, deserving of the sentences they received. Let's hope either one of them are ever released from prison with a pulse. But that's JMHO and all of MOO.

Rest in eternal peace sweet Tori.

 

[Tamarind]

Who is minimizing TLM's role? And yes I made it clear in my post, using MR's mother as an example of parental denial. I agree, some mothers want their sons kept out of jail even when they know or have strong indication their son is guilty as charged, it's called denial. Many mothers who know their sons are innocent will go public and be their son's best advocates such as J Milgaard.

And in case you are not aware, TLM did lead Tori to MR's car at MR's request. Just as he parked at a child's house suggesting to TLM he and she could go inside and abduct a little girl for his warped, sexual pleasure. Also, if you know the more about MR, he had a strong penchant for chocking women during sex. There is no doubt in my mind he choked Tori while raping and torturing her. TLM stated Tori had urinated blood which is indicative to internal injury/damage. Between MR raping and choking her, Tori's injuries would have proven fatal. Therefore it is MOO, and not minimizing her role, even without TLM welding that hammer, TS would has succumbed to death by MR's evil acts alone. They are both equally evil and disturbed, deserving of the sentences they received. Let's hope either one of them are ever released from prison with a pulse. But that's JMHO and all of MOO.

Rest in eternal peace sweet Tori.

I dont agree that the word is denial!

Thank you for the update, it always is awfully sad to revisit Tori's case. I agree the MR TLM case is abhorrent.... I think his mother probably couldn't deal with the thought of her son in jail for so long and was maybe in shock, she may have to spend a long time facing the truth... she must be suffering too. I know I would be.

Many advocates go public after a trial, they hope justice happen first. JMO

 

[MsSherlock]

I dont agree that the word is denial!

Thank you for the update, it always is awfully sad to revisit Tori's case. I agree the MR TLM case is abhorrent.... I think his mother probably couldn't deal with the thought of her son in jail for so long and was maybe in shock, she may have to spend a long time facing the truth... she must be suffering too. I know I would be.

Many advocates go public after a trial, they hope justice happen first. JMO

Very true Tamarind. IMHO, I think cases like these have an impact on many parents. Identifying with the family of the victim, parents fear for the welfare of their loved ones. Identifying with the family of the perp's, parents have hope that their children would never commit such a crime or be associated with anyone who would. They "hope" they know their child well enough. How many times do parents tell their teenagers not to "drink and drive"? A parent can only pray that their child will never be the one to die or kill someone else while drunk behind the wheel of a car. When we see the denial of MR's mother, it becomes very clear how difficult it is for the perps family. I can't imagine how KH's parents dealt with the death of TH. IMHO it's heart wrenching.

In the TB case we have 3 sets of parents/families- DM,MS & CN. Each will be exposed to publicity. Then we have every witness that may be called. There will be publicity around them: news articles, TV crews following them down the sidewalks in front of the court house-their association with the accused will become public knowledge. IMHO, in this Google world that we live in, these trials could have a huge impact on many people for many years to come. MOO

 

[Tamarind]

Very true Tamarind. IMHO, I think cases like these have an impact on many parents. Identifying with the family of the victim, parents fear for the welfare of their loved ones. Identifying with the family of the perp's, parents have hope that their children would never commit such a crime or be associated with anyone who would. They "hope" they know their child well enough. How many times do parents tell their teenagers not to "drink and drive"? A parent can only pray that their child will never be the one to die or kill someone else while drunk behind the wheel of a car. When we see the denial of MR's mother, it becomes very clear how difficult it is for the perps family. I can't imagine how KH's parents dealt with the death of TH. IMHO it's heart wrenching.

In the TB case we have 3 sets of parents/families- DM,MS & CN. Each will be exposed to publicity. Then we have every witness that may be called. There will be publicity around them: news articles, TV crews following them down the sidewalks in front of the court house-their association with the accused will become public knowledge. IMHO, in this Google world that we live in, these trials could have a huge impact on many people for many years to come. MOO

Yes especially if one or more is innocent.

As far as drinking and driving, it is not always our children who are driving, when they suffer terrible injuries in a car accident. It is not always alcohol related. I nearly lost my own son in an accident, due to someone else driving sober, but who was speeding and after the occupants were telling them to slow down.

Sometimes it is the people we/they are with, who bring harm and that harm can affect a lot of people for a long time.

Sometimes innocent people are drawn into situations that become out of their control.

 

[Tamarind]

It is so sad when we read of these things happening. No-one paid the price for this terrible miscarriage of justice. All the questionable evidence and so-called witnesses all forgotten about. No accountability. This is why we as a people need to be vigilant and make sure fair trials happen and no cover up or corruption ever occurs without being dealt with and the respective instigators and their ilk paying the price. This poor man.... todays news ! :

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/romeo-phillion-dead-1.3301685

 

[Juballee]

Very true Tamarind. IMHO, I think cases like these have an impact on many parents. Identifying with the family of the victim, parents fear for the welfare of their loved ones. Identifying with the family of the perp's, parents have hope that their children would never commit such a crime or be associated with anyone who would. They "hope" they know their child well enough. How many times do parents tell their teenagers not to "drink and drive"? A parent can only pray that their child will never be the one to die or kill someone else while drunk behind the wheel of a car. When we see the denial of MR's mother, it becomes very clear how difficult it is for the perps family. I can't imagine how KH's parents dealt with the death of TH. IMHO it's heart wrenching.

In the TB case we have 3 sets of parents/families- DM,MS & CN. Each will be exposed to publicity. Then we have every witness that may be called. There will be publicity around them: news articles, TV crews following them down the sidewalks in front of the court house-their association with the accused will become public knowledge. IMHO, in this Google world that we live in, these trials could have a huge impact on many people for many years to come. MOO

I would think that anyone who has ever been a parent would have sympathy for the parents of both the victims and the accused, but I think that sometimes compassion is hard to come by. Otherwise the TV crews would have enough heart not to chase or harass them, I would think.

I always wondered why they did that, what are they trying to accomplish by making a person hurry away while trying to shield themselves? The people who already know them likely know what is going on already, and won't be surprised to see them on the news. Is it so that strangers can jeer or offer their sympathies when they recognize them on the street, or is it just filler to make it look like reporters have tried to get a quote from them? Either way, I think with more and more people turning away from the traditional new sources like TV and newspapers, we'll see less and less of these kind of ambush tactics and more cut and paste stories pieced together from the sources who did get direct quotes.

 

[matou]

Maybe because of Sharlene Bosma's appeal for her husband. Noudga is said to have been aware of things thus her charges. Why not assist in the case? So in love with the perp? Talk about disgusting. This video is what made me follow this case. RIP Tim.

[video=youtube;JEz2rXQ0GF8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEz2rXQ0GF8[/video]

 

[Tamarind]

Maybe because of Sharlene Bosma's appeal for her husband. Noudga is said to have been aware of things thus her charges. Why not assist in the case? So in love with the perp? Talk about disgusting. This video is what made me follow this case. RIP Tim.

We have no idea what the facts are, no point guessing IMO. I followed the case because something seemed a little odd with the alleged trail of events.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Maybe because of Sharlene Bosma's appeal for her husband. Noudga is said to have been aware of things thus her charges. Why not assist in the case? So in love with the perp? Talk about disgusting. This video is what made me follow this case. RIP Tim.

I also started following during TB's disappearance, well before anyone had any inkling of who was behind this.

The things that make me feel this was a premeditated murder are the burner phone and the incinerator.

I don't understand, if DM is "100% not guilty", how he got in so deep to this. Say DM went with MS to test drive a truck, and he totally doesn't expect anything else, but MS somehow kills TB. Why would DM not just get in his Yukon and get the heck out of there? Leave MS and the mess he created (hot truck, dead body) and don't look back?

Instead DM ended up assisting enough that if he were not charged with first-degree murder, he would face accessory after the fact to murder charges.

If what CN did helped MS escape just as well as DM, I expect her charges would also remain.

What kind of defense could DM possibly offer, that wouldn't make him face as-serious charges?