General Discussion Thread #2

[DriveBy]

Oh, this is intriguing!

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/07/us-safrica-pistorius-idUSBRE9260UB20130307

Warrant Officer (his rank) Detective Botha did give an interview and he comes across as not in command, weak. They have a military style of rank there it seems for Police Officers and that includes Forensics. He did let a Forensic Colonel pull rank and ignore Botha's requests to hurry it up before the bail hearing - a different result of the hearing was possible if Botha had been more in command of the people working the case.

Botha felt diminished by it all and said that his desire to emigrate was probably lost now because no one would want him.

If SA would look at him poorly because of the case then it would not make sense to resign. But they did reinstate charges against him and pull him from the case, so maybe he was being forced out, makes sense if they were really PO'ed by his performance in this highest profile case.

 

[DriveBy]

God I am thick....yesterday I asked would the Defence let it be known they had "found" another bullet/casing in the toilet because I thought it would weaken their case. IIRC, there were 3 bullet holes in door but four wounds. One bullet was thought to have made both hand and head wound.

What if Reeva was attacked outside bathroom with one bullet.......forced/ carried/ran into bathroom closed the door, then three more bullets fired. Three bullets making four wounds seems unlikely now. One bullet fired outside the bathroom could be covered up by "finding" another bullet/casing in the toilet bowl AFTER the proscution and finished their investigation of the crime scene. Do I make sense??????

No. (Insert smiley face here, joking)

My take on it is this, and I may be wrong with the thinking of this Forum, but:

1. The Prosecution has said that the door had four (4) bullet holes.
2. OP says that he never went in to the bathroom, he was feeling too scared and vulnerable. So he fired all of the shots from the doorway / entrance of the bathroom.
3. The Prosecution says that they found one (1) spent cartridge outside of the bathroom. That would jive with what OP said, he fired from the doorway in to the bathroom; by doing that the spent cartridge(s) would be ejected out the right side of the pistol and land outside of the bathroom.
4. But the Prosecution also found three (3) spent cartridges inside of the bathroom, and the angle (trajectory) of the shots fired through the door determine that OP moved in to the bathroom and positioned himself by the sink and then fired at an extreme angle to successfully target and hit Reeva.

So he fired once from the doorway, and whether that bullet hit or missed he then moved in to the bathroom for the kill with the other three (3) shots.

 

[liverpoollou]

No. (Insert smiley face here, joking)

My take on it is this, and I may be wrong with the thing of this Forum, but:

1. The Prosecution has said that the door had four (4) bullet holes.
2. OP says that he never went in to the bathroom, he was feeling too scared and vulnerable. So he fired all of the shots from the doorway / entrance of the bathroom.
3. The Prosecution says that they found one (1) spent cartridge outside of the bathroom. That would jive with what OP said, he fired from the doorway in to the bathroom; by doing that the spent cartridge(s) would be ejected out the right side of the pistol and land outside of the bathroom.
4. But the Prosecution also found three (3) spent cartridges inside of the bathroom, and the angle (trajectory) of the shots fired through the door determine that OP moved in to the bathroom and positioned himself by the sink and then fired at an extreme angle to successfully target and hit Reeva.

So he fired once from the doorway, and whether that bullet hit or missed he then moved in to the bathroom for the kill with the other three (3) shots.

Yes I got that wrong, apparently there were four bullet holes in the door. I know one bullet was stated to have gone through her hand and head. Still don't know what to make of the bullet/casing or whatever you call it that was found by the Defence in the toilet bowl. How would that get there?

 

[Carol70]

Could Botha have been sacked?

On the day of his testimony, I said on this very forum that I give him until the end of the week before he will be packing bags at the grocery store..Lolz, he was off the case the next day and now he has resigned...IMO, he has been sacked! He was more than likely asked to voluntary resign so that he at least gets some compensation. Generally when someone resigns with immediate effect, they have been ASKED to resign.

 

[DriveBy]

3rd Degree | Oscar Pistorius - YouTube


Good SA inv. show, "3rd degree" on OP. Stuff I've not seen elsewhere.

If genuine (and not simulation), has boat (crash) footage showing alcohol bottles found. And also has interview of OP on the door slamming party incident. If he is lying--and IMO he is--he is damn good!

The links you post have been great!

I watched the program last night. I was afraid to see him speak about the incident w/ Ms. Taylor because of your comment. But actually I didn't see him as a very good liar. He is attractive and smiles constantly which makes him likable and believable, why not trust him - he looks good and he's smiling at you while he talks. But he also shows nervous tells in his facial expressions and eye contact or lack of eye contact (IMO).

The most obvious telling of a fabrication to me was he said that Ms. Taylor was drunk, he asked her to leave, and as he escorted her out of the door she was hit by a piece of the door after she kicked it loose (he spent lots of time describing that part of the story), and he seemed to end the story there; he was just doing the right thing for his party guests and himself and she was now gone. But then "he said he was on his way to call the police himself" to report Ms. Taylor to the Police for (I guess) breaking his door or something, but as he went to report her crime to the police they were already outside of his house - coming for him and he was arrested. Hope you follow that he fabricated the "he was on his way to call the police himself" part to ADD credibility to his version of what happened, and project that he was the Victim of a crime that night, not Ms. Taylor.

 

[cityslick]

Yes I got that wrong, apparently there were four bullet holes in the door. I know one bullet was stated to have gone through her hand and head. Still don't know what to make of the bullet/casing or whatever you call it that was found by the Defence in the toilet bowl. How would that get there?

Couldn't it simply be the 4th shot, the one that didn't hit RS? How police didn't find it is unexplainable to me.

Shot 1 - hand and head
Shot 2 - arm
Shot 3 - hip
Shot 4 - toilet

Another scenario

Shot 1 - head
Shot 2 - arm
Shot 3 - hip
Shot 4 - hand, pass through to toilet

 

[Carol70]

Yes I got that wrong, apparently there were four bullet holes in the door. I know one bullet was stated to have gone through her hand and head. Still don't know what to make of the bullet/casing or whatever you call it that was found by the Defence in the toilet bowl. How would that get there?

The defence forensics said he noticed a mark on the wall of the loo that made him look in the toilet so we can assume that the bullet nicked the wall first, then ricocheted into the toilet bowl.

Welcome to the forum btw.

 

[DriveBy]

Yes I got that wrong, apparently there were four bullet holes in the door. I know one bullet was stated to have gone through her hand and head. Still don't know what to make of the bullet/casing or whatever you call it that was found by the Defence in the toilet bowl. How would that get there?

I do not have a solid belief in the toilet bowl thing having a great mystery about itself.

And I mean people call it different things and it is confusing, even I call it the wrong name. Here, this is a diagram with the correct naming of the parts:

http://homestudy.ihea.com/ammo/images/ammo_centrefire.gif

Either a spent casing (the bit that is ejected out the side of the pistol) or a spent bullet (the projectile) was found in the toilet. My bet is it is a bullet, likely the first round fired from the doorway, that highly likely missed Reeva because he could not see her and he was in a Rage. That round hit the door, then ricocheted off of something and landed in the toilet. Now my brain hurts!

 

[liverpoollou]

Couldn't it simply be the 4th shot, the one that didn't hit RS? How police didn't find it is unexplainable to me.

Shot 1 - hand and head
Shot 2 - arm
Shot 3 - hip
Shot 4 - toilet

Another scenario

Shot 1 - head
Shot 2 - arm
Shot 3 - hip
Shot 4 - hand, pass through to toilet

Yes I understand what you mean, but surely the PROSECUTION when they examind the door saw four bullet holes and would account for them. I mean they wouldn't think "Oh four bullet holes, well we've accounted for three, lets see if the Defence can find the other one". My head is spinning, I'm off to have a glass of wine.

 

[Cherwell]

After all they had had the company of the British housemate living there for the last four weeks so they had a chaperone

I think you have misread this. The housemate is not Martyn Rooney, but a former unnamed schoolmate of Pistorius.

15.04 According to that New York Times magazine piece, Pistorius also has a house-mate:

Pistorius lives in the house with a friend from high school, an engineer who moonlights as a mixed-martial-arts fighter.

14.58 Martyn Rooney, the Great Britain Olympic 400m star, has told The Sun that he had dinner with Oscar Pistorius and Reeva Steenkamp last Saturday. He said he was "in bits" at the news of her death and that his thoughts and prayers "go out to the families and friends of those involved". Pistorius tweeted on Sunday that he had watched a movie, but that his house was "way too quiet without @martynrooney! homealoneblues".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...72091/Oscar-Pistorius-murder-charge-live.html

Sounds as though Mr Rooney visited OP during his stay in SA, may even have stayed over, but he is not the housemate referred to.

 

[Lois Lane]

Botha told Sapa he was looking forward to his new job, but was coy on exactly what it entailed. It was different but in a similar field to what he was doing with the police.

"It is a new area but I am happy about it." Botha said his new employers approached him about a week ago. He would not give further details regarding his new position or employer saying it would bring unnecessary attention to them.

"The most important reason [for my resignation] is that I want to send my son to university next year and with a police salary it would have been impossible for me."

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-03-07-former-lead-investigator-in-pistorius-case-resigns-from-saps

 

[DriveBy]

Yes I understand what you mean, but surely the PROSECUTION when they examind the door saw four bullet holes and would account for them. I mean they wouldn't think "Oh four bullet holes, well we've accounted for three, lets see if the Defence can find the other one". My head is spinning, I'm off to have a glass of wine.

They saw a woman with a bunch of gunshot wounds and they saw spent casings. But there was no way to know for certain that all of the bullets were in her body or not at the time. Wait, I see your point. Four wounds, four casings, but the hand? Well maybe they really should have known to keep looking for that bullet!

 

[cityslick]

Yes I understand what you mean, but surely the PROSECUTION when they examind the door saw four bullet holes and would account for them. I mean they wouldn't think "Oh four bullet holes, well we've accounted for three, lets see if the Defence can find the other one". My head is spinning, I'm off to have a glass of wine.

I agree with you that's why it makes no sense. From what we know LE never accounted for more than 3 so how and why it was turned over to the defense before all the bullets were found/accounted for is dumbfounding to me. Than add in the fact that Botha basically contaminated the crime scene with not wearing protective gear and you wonder what kind of state the investigation really is in.

 

[Carol70]

Exactly.

Some providers can provide text messages, but only via subpoena. Doubt that info would be available yet, at least it would not be here, it takes some time for subpoenas to go through, info to be retrieved, and then mailed to the interested party.

Right now they are only looking at activity, and you are correct, it would show if texting or surfing happened at all.

It would most definitely be available by now, any data usage, texts or calls. OP and Reeva more than likely had contract phones like the rest of the population and its mandatory that all contracts receive an itemized bill at the end of every month. It contains all relevant info, time, length etc of all calls.

 

[Carol70]

3rd Degree | Oscar Pistorius - YouTube


Good SA inv. show, "3rd degree" on OP. Stuff I've not seen elsewhere.

If genuine (and not simulation), has boat (crash) footage showing alcohol bottles found. And also has interview of OP on the door slamming party incident. If he is lying--and IMO he is--he is damn good!

I love Debra Patta, she is an awesome Investigative journalist however, I'm annoyed she opted to interview Mark Batchelor. The man is a and of dubious character himself and should be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

[DriveBy]

It would most definitely be available by now, any data usage, texts or calls. OP and Reeva more than likely had contract phones like the rest of the population and its mandatory that all contracts receive an itemized bill at the end of every month. It contains all relevant info, time, length etc of all calls.

IDK about outside the US. But the technological capabilities should be the same.

I needed to get / retrieve a text message that I deleted for a civil case and I asked AT&T. They could not retrieve it, it is not stored anywhere other than the phone and the SIM card. They have records of it being sent or received and the time and number involved, but not the text it self.

If OP deleted the message it is still stored on the SIM card and can be accessed easily.

My opinion - is that there was no message to set him off. Reeva really liked him and made a Valentine's present and all of that. I would look to the drinking, his temper/violent tendency (he's a "Mean Drunk"), and his psychological status for answers. In Domestic Homicide Rage killings it is the victim not complying or being unable to comply with the assailant's demands, or the victim wanting to leave the relationship that sets off the Rage. He wanted her to do something that she did not want to or could not do.

 

[liverpoollou]

They saw a woman with a bunch of gunshot wounds and they saw spent casings. But there was no way to know for certain that all of the bullets were in her body or not at the time. Wait, I see your point. Four wounds, four casings, but the hand? Well maybe they really should have known to keep looking for that bullet!

Thanks for your comments........what I am getting at is........is it possible there was a fifth bullet not shot through the door but with the door open...just to finish her off.

 

[DriveBy]

I love Debra Patta, she is an awesome Investigative journalist however, I'm annoyed she opted to interview Mark Batchelor. The man is a and of dubious character himself and should be taken with a pinch of salt.

"You are known by the company you keep?"

 

[DriveBy]

Thanks for your comments........what I am getting at is........is it possible there was a fifth bullet not shot through the door but with the door open...just to finish her off.

Here's the thing, Reeva did not die in the bathroom, she died downstairs. Dead people don't bleed because after the heart stops pumping the blood it is trapped in the body. But living people with a bunch of gunshot wounds do bleed. The crime scene is described as very bloody in the bathroom, the hallway upstairs, and downstairs around Reeva's body. So she lived and bled for about 30 minutes before finally dying downstairs.

Even OP stated that she was breathing and making gurgling sounds downstairs while his family were there at the house.

So fifth bullet to finish her off may be the wrong question.

 

[Patticake]

I agree with you that's why it makes no sense. From what we know LE never accounted for more than 3 so how and why it was turned over to the defense before all the bullets were found/accounted for is dumbfounding to me. Than add in the fact that Botha basically contaminated the crime scene with not wearing protective gear and you wonder what kind of state the investigation really is in.

I know the defense will make a huge issue about contaminating the crime scene.

But didn't the police allow Oscar's brother, the attorney and a locksmith to walk through the crime scene before Botha even arrived? I'm curious if that is SOP for the SA police!

.