General Discussion Thread #2

[joe jones]

Bothas not perfect but Oscar already contaminated the scene with his friends whom he called before Botha got there...coincidence? I say not.

Oscar and his friend and the Dr and paramedics were not processing a crime scene, they were either there to try to assist Reeva or to support Oscar, they were not required to put on booties before they entered his home,

the police are required to not contaminate a crime scene, they are required to collect all evidence that is relevant, they are required to do a professional job

 

[joe jones]

How do you know these details?

Oscars statement, all I can go on is what he said, to speculate about what he did or why he did it

whether what he says is the truth is yet to be ascertained, but at present his version is all we have,

when the state provide evidence that disputes his version then I can speculate on that, but at present the state is still investigating and the reports are yet to be written

 

[Patticake]

It's only fair that I let you all know that I've just quickly paged through the latest YOU magazine ( out on stands yesterday) which naturally has 15 pages dedicated to the case. This magazine is very popular, most local celebs like to be on the cover and have their picture taken for it but they are quite ummm..tabloidish if that makes sense.

No new pictures to share unfortunately but YOU have been known to get the inside scoop of crime scenes etc so maybe next week they will have something...all other pictures are what we have seen on the web, 1 picture of his entrance way with the staircase to the right, you can see the area where Reeva took her last.

There is a snippet of information/gossip that might be of interest to you...and I quote from the article directly but shortened else it will take too long.

" I was there when Oscar used the drugs CAT and cocaine" a well known and sometimes controversial TV star tells YOU. " Oscar met a drug dealer in rivonia, we pulled off the road in his car and did a line of cocaine. Oscar and a few famous rugby players in Pretoria are caught in a net of drugs, parties, alcohol abuse,fast cars and beautiful women. Oscar likes waving guns around, threatening people. He is a jealous guy who doesn't treat women well. One moment he's "the man" and the next he's crying like a baby. "
The source spoke openly and was prepared to give his name but then changed his mind because Oscar might sue him.

Read into that what you like.
I hope I don't regret writing that all up hehehe..

Indeed. Apparently they are online and this is their OP Special Report page:

http://you.co.za/category/news/oscar-pistorius/

.

 

[Inobu]

Bothas not perfect but Oscar already contaminated the scene with his friends whom he called before Botha got there...coincidence? I say not.

I agree and will add that it was contaminated when he pulled her out of the toilet room.

Inobu

 

[Carol70]

but that is your idea of what is reasonable, what is reckless, I look at it from his point of view, to me from reading many interviews he was concerned about his safety, he has come home before and heard a noise (washing machine) and got his gun out as he thought it may be an intruder, he was jumpy and paranoid about his personal safety,

he has said he felt vulnerable when his legs were off,

so looking at it from his point of view I can very easily imagine he wakes, it's dark, he hears a noise, he grabs his gun (which he has said he has done before when he heard noises in his home) he says he has no legs on so maybe felt he could not fight, he thinks his GF is in bed, he lives in SA where rape/home invasion is a massive problem, he acts without thinking to protect (as he says) himself and his GF, it probably happened within a few minutes from hearing noise to shots (if his story is how it happened) so how much conscious thought would he have had, he may have been acting on instinct

now I have never held or seen a handgun in my country(England) I have seen them in other countries but have still never held one, I have never felt the need to have a gun, I live in an area that is considered safe, I don't have prosthetics, so I would expect I would have done things differently

I would speculate and estimate that it was 2 minutes max from time of first noise until shots fired. I just sat and watched the clock...it's actually amazing how long a minute can be!!!

 

[Zinn]

Just curious.

The witness spoke of three points that is contrary to what OP as stated.

The argument

The defense has rebuffed the argument saying that the witness was too far away to hear. The witness

The two volley of gun shots

The volly of gun short are collaborated with the shell casing location.

The status of the lights

The defense could not contest that the witness did not see the lights as lights can be see from a greater distance.

I think these facts challenges his version. Just wondering what your thoughts are. Is the witness account creditable?

Inobu

IIRC, the defense did not say the witness was too far away to hear a loud argument, but they asked the prosecution if the witness could say with certainty that the female arguing voice was recognizable as Reeva Steenkamp and the male arguing voice was recognizable as OP. The prosecution conceded the witness would not be able to personally identify those two individuals as those who were arguing. I suppose they could make a case that a different couple in the neighborhood could have been arguing loudly in the neighborhood immediately before the gunshots at OP's home, so it can't be proven that OP and Reeva were arguing.

JMO

 

[joe jones]

Just curious.

The witness spoke of three points that is contrary to what OP as stated.

The argument

The defense has rebuffed the argument saying that the witness was too far away to hear. The witness

The two volley of gun shots

The volly of gun short are collaborated with the shell casing location.

The status of the lights

The defense could not contest that the witness did not see the lights as lights can be see from a greater distance.

I think these facts challenges his version. Just wondering what your thoughts are. Is the witness account creditable?

Inobu

I think the witness account doesn't stand up, they can't identify the voices who were allegedly arguing, they said there were more shots than were actually fired, Oscar wasn't sure (according to his statement) at what exact point he put the light on,

and the witnesses has yet to be cross examined in open court to be able to test the strength of there recollection or the facts they are testifying too,

 

[SweetT]

but then he was not in his locked bedroom with what he considered no way to retreat, and he had his legs on when he was spooked by the washing machine...........

So he said he was not in his bedroom and that he had his legs on? I guess I didnt see that part.

 

[joe jones]

I would speculate and estimate that it was 2 minutes max from time of first noise until shots fired. I just sat and watched the clock...it's actually amazing how long a minute can be!!!

but did you have to get a gun from under your bed in pitch dark, shuffle across the floor on stumps to your bathroom still in pitch dark according to OP, and then fire into a locked door

all the while again according to OP you were in fear of your life, and your GF life,

I bet it felt like a lifetime to OP

 

[Lola]

the toxicology thing was a tweet from AndrewHarding at the BBC from yesterday

andrew harding ‏@BBCAndrewH
Colleague in #OscarPistorius court tells me toxicology reports for South African court cases have 7 year backlog.

 

[Estelle]

Oscar and his friend and the Dr and paramedics were not processing a crime scene, they were either there to try to assist Reeva or to support Oscar, they were not required to put on booties before they entered his home,

the police are required to not contaminate a crime scene, they are required to collect all evidence that is relevant, they are required to do a professional job

Being called at 3am to investigate a crime, Botha probably did not have time to find the booties if they had been available.

"Footwear and tire track evidence is rarely recognized as valuable in departments where officers routinely wander unimpeded through crime scenes.2 On occasion, this can seriously hamper investigations."

http://library.thinkquest.org/TQ0312020/protecting_the_crime_scene.htm

Could it have seriously hampered this investigation? In what respects?

 

[joe jones]

but then he was not in his locked bedroom with what he considered no way to retreat, and he had his legs on when he was spooked by the washing machine...........

So he said he was not in his bedroom and that he had his legs on? I guess I didnt see that part.

I think you misread my post, I meant that a reason he may not have shot his washing machine was the night he shot Reeva was a very different scenario, he was in his locked bedroom, without his legs on according to him, whereas the washing machine incident he had his legs on and other ways to get out of the room

 

[Zinn]

Oscar and his friend and the Dr and paramedics were not processing a crime scene, they were either there to try to assist Reeva or to support Oscar, they were not required to put on booties before they entered his home,

the police are required to not contaminate a crime scene, they are required to collect all evidence that is relevant, they are required to do a professional job

Botha should have worn booties. Terrible that he did not. But, IMO, the fact that OP's lawyer was at the scene before the investigator is of concern, as well.

JMO

 

[NocturnalLady]

I hope this doesn't come off as mean or degrading to OP but I wish they would do a re-enactment of the crime so that he could demonstrate the timeline & how long it would take him to do all the things he said he did both with and without the prosthetic legs.

I would imagine he is much slower without his prosthetics. Which IMHO means he should have had PLENTY to time to notice that Reeva was not in the bed or to have heard her flush the toilet (if she was really in there just using the facilities).

I'd also like to see just how dark it actually was. I can't see how it's pitch black when the balcony doors were open & the bathroom window was open.

 

[Estelle]

What a charade!

The prosecutions evidence, so far, is speculative, inept and incompetent.

What concerns me; is that the victim was removed from the crime scene

The defendants legal advisor was at the scene prior to the police arriving.

How convenient for the defendant!

 

[Zinn]

Being called at 3am to investigate a crime, Botha probably did not have time to find the booties if they had been available.

"Footwear and tire track evidence is rarely recognized as valuable in departments where officers routinely wander unimpeded through crime scenes.2 On occasion, this can seriously hamper investigations."

http://library.thinkquest.org/TQ0312020/protecting_the_crime_scene.htm

Could it have seriously hampered this investigation? In what respects?

I believe he said the ran out of booties.

 

[Lola]

I think the witness account doesn't stand up, they can't identify the voices who were allegedly arguing, they said there were more shots than were actually fired, Oscar wasn't sure (according to his statement) at what exact point he put the light on,

and the witnesses has yet to be cross examined in open court to be able to test the strength of there recollection or the facts they are testifying too,

two witnesses gave an affidavit under oath. without seeing the affidavits, hearing from the witnesses, it's difficult to to gauge how reliable either the testimony or the witnesses are

 

[NocturnalLady]

Not many arguments go immediately from shouting for an hour to chasing with a gun. Where/what was the catalyst for that?

Reeva walking out on the argument and sequestering herself in the bathroom. Irrational people lose their minds when someone walks away from them in the middle of a fight.

 

[joe jones]

Being called at 3am to investigate a crime, Botha probably did not have time to find the booties if they had been available.

"Footwear and tire track evidence is rarely recognized as valuable in departments where officers routinely wander unimpeded through crime scenes.2 On occasion, this can seriously hamper investigations."

http://library.thinkquest.org/TQ0312020/protecting_the_crime_scene.htm

Could it have seriously hampered this investigation? In what respects?

blood spatter has already been made much of, it will feature at the trial, if Botha or others were walking in blood then the scene is altered from what it was therefore the evidence is unreliable as it has been altered,

It will be very important the not wearing booties if it is found that once OP carried Reeva downstairs he never went back upstairs once police or others got there, and if nobody else went upstairs, the scene was pristine, it was how he left it, all the evidence as it was left by him,before police began to process it, if police then walked through the blood and disturbed it then that is a huge mistake and the defence will (as should any good jurist) challenge the validity of conclusions reached at a contaminated crime scene

being so lax about the booties/processing crime scene has meant the state is already on the back foot, how on earth did they miss a bullet in the toilet bowl

 

[NocturnalLady]

I don't know what happened.

I believe, based on what I've heard (including what the media has dished out) and on general intuition, that OP is guilty of intentionally killing Reeva. I readily admit that this is just an opinion on my part, with imperfect information.

Having said that I would like to applaud Carol (and others) who are looking for reasons to believe that OP didn't kill Reeva intentionally, or those who are willing to entertain the idea and play devil's advocate. For the majority to jump to a conclusion and to bully the opposing views away in just not acceptable, or helpful.

I believe that everyone deserves their day in court; their chance at a fair trial. So, I have to say that this bothered me:

Look at the media! I have never seen a case where the media is allowed to be so close to an accused in court. I find it offensive....examining every little detail of the accused's decorum. That's just not right. Let's give the guy a chance for a fair trial, and let the truth come out.

In the end this is about finding out the TRUTH, not about presuming that the accused is guilty. A young woman was killed and her family is mourning. Let's find out what REALLY happened. Keep it coming Carol. I'm happy to spar with you.




(I still believe that OP is guilty of intentional murder, but that is simply my opinion, and doesn't count for anything since I don't know the facts.)

That's insane to allow the media to be right up in his face like that.