General Discussion Thread #4

[shane13]

Something else may be of significance in these recent items.

From here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ter-Oscar-Pistorius-shot-dead-girlfriend.html

It says: "In one poignant scene, a Valentine's gift for Pistorius, 26, from his girlfriend remains unopened."

This could tie in with reports of loud arguing etc heard on Wed. night, implying that Oscar never even opened his gift?

 

[cityslick]

Good on you, Dutchess. I posted the same RE the door handle. Interesting some people celebrating, when it appears that the handle is high on the door, and we don't have the other 2 holes. But I noted that I am not sure of the scale of the photo. If the horizontal log is like half way up, then it appears that the handle is way up and the 2 holes are on the top half. Again we don't know where the other 2 holes are.

Another thing I note is that there appears not to be much blood shown on the stairs which seems to contradict some paramedics and others witness accounts. But maybe there was massve blood loss at the top, and we see mostly the bottom part of the stairs?

And yes, his prosthetic legs were on when he carried her down, and when the cops etc arrived.

BBM

Heh, that's interesting choice of words. No one is celebrating, it's about finding the truth, not finding how guilty someone is. Sometimes the two are not one and the same.

Just giving my opinion. I've never seen any door in my life that had a lock higher than halfway up the door, especially a bathroom door. So if I assume that lock is halfway up the door, then the holes are below that. I would also assume that OP comes up higher than the midpoint of the door with his legs on so the only way he makes those holes is by shooting down. Is it possible? Of course. But it makes a better case in court if all the holes were higher, closer to arm level.

 

[shane13]

2 other things RE the loo door.

From Botha, IIRC:
1. R500,000 was offered to a cop for a pic of the door. I guess someone could not resist.
2. Botha testified that the top part of the door was bashed in. Thus the missing panel according to under oath testimony is part of the top part of the door.

Regardless of how the media apparently wish to slant things.

 

[shane13]

Yea, the location of the holes at the very least puts the theory that he had his legs on the whole time into serious question. It also puts the theory that he chased her all around the house into question because although it's still possible to do that on stumps, it's not quite as believable if he did have his legs on.

What exactly was Botha talking about when he said they were high on the door?

BBM

Heh, that's interesting choice of words. No one is celebrating, it's about finding the truth, not finding how guilty someone is. Sometimes the two are not one and the same.

Looks like it, from your "Yea."

And I don't think, per my analysis in my last few posts, that we have anything definitive here--one way or the other. Because as noted, we cannot be sure where on the door the 2 holes are right now. And we don't have the other 2 holes. And we have Botha's testimony that the top part of the door was bashed in--thus the missing panel is at the top--the level of the 2 holes seen.

 

[cityslick]

Looks like it, from your "Yea."

And I don't think, per my analysis in my last few posts, that we have anything definitive here--one way or the other. Because as noted, we cannot be sure where on the door the 2 holes are right now. And we don't have the other 2 holes. And we have Botha's testimony that the top part of the door was bashed in--thus the missing panel is at the top--the level of the 2 holes seen.

Yes/Yea = celebrating?

Celebrating is usually arty: or artyguy: or :fireworks:

 

[sorrell skye]

The standard height for doorknobs on a typical 80-inch tall, household door is 36 inches.

http://www.ehow.com/about_6578119_standard-doorknob-height-door_.html

If that toilet room door is 80" tall, and if that doorknob height is the standard 36", the two bullet holes that are visible in the photo are below 36" - lower in the door than I had previously imagined.

The cross rail on the door directly below the bullet holes appears to be several inches higher than the toilet seat, but it's hard to tell due to the angle of the photo. In the US, the standard height for toilet seats is between 14 & 15". I would assume that toilet seat heights in SA are similar.

Based on the photo, I think those two bullet holes are less than 36" high, but more than 15" high (if measured from the base of the door). If I had to guess, I'd say they're roughly between 26-30" high.

One thing's for certain, both the prosecution and the defense know exactly how high they are.

 

[Patticake]

Aside from the predictable "Oscar Is Heartbroken" stuff. I wanted to post about the 4AM call:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/31/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-uncle-interview/index.html

Exclusive: Oscar Pistorius heartbroken, uncle says

The sprinter's agent has also spoken for the first time about the 4 a.m. call he received telling him there had been a shooting at the track star's home.

"It was the estate where Oscar (was) staying at, the estate manager's daughter phoned me from Oscar's phone. So I picked up the phone and saw it was Oscar's number and thought it was him phoning me. And just had this voice of a girl frantically on the other side shouting, 'Please, you have to rush over here, you have to come to Oscar's house,'" Peet van Zyl told CNN in an exclusive interview.

"I initially thought it was Oscar that has been shot. She said, 'No, no, no, no. Reeva's been shot.' She explained then to me basically just briefly what happened. And yeah, total shock obviously. So I had to jump in the car and rush through to Pretoria."

Van Zyl said he then called Ampie Louw, the sprinter's coach, and told him to jump in his car and get to Pistorius's house.

"When arrived at the house and you see all the police cars and lights ... I was standing outside, me and Peet and the lawyer, but Oscar was inside," Louw told CNN.

"I could hear him crying in the garage, and Reeva was at the entrance. So that was terrible for me."

.

 

[Pisto_lius]

Regarding the Sky News story (Images Show Bloody Scene Of Killing)

LOL what a "happy coincidence" that these photos are leaked only 4 days before the next court hearing. And the media tell us what we have to believe:

1. These photos appear to back up OP’s claim
2. These photos are leaked by 2 police officers, made by their handys
3. Someone of the police stole a watch of OP - and we hear about it until today ?!

Aside from the fact that these photos show only 2 of the bullet holes and we don’t know whether the other 2 holes were fired in the panel that was bashed apart (or higher through the door - the photos doesn't show) and we also don’t know the angle of the trajectories, please take a look at the following points.

- Reeva was hit at the right side of her body. But if you look at the toilet bowl, the blood is on the left side. Some blood - but not a lot - is on the toilet seat and it flowed down the toilet. Most of the blood is seen also left side on the ground. So Reeva COULDN'T sit at the toilet bowl when she was shot. For me it looks like she stood or squatted left of the toilet. But even then it’s impossible she could be hit at her right hip, right arm and right side of her head because most of the blood would have to be behind the toilet then.

- There is relatively sparsely blood in the bathroom in front of the toilet where OP Reeva pulled out of the toilet. But this is the place where Reeva lay when Oscar phoned Stander and Netcare, went downstairs to open the front door and returned to the bathroom to picked Reeva up. So there must have been more blood at THIS place !!

- The photos show just a few drops of blood on the lower stairs. And now remember, what OP, his family, his lawyers and Perumal told:

“Reeva was still alive when OP carried her downstairs and died a few minutes before paramedics arrived.”

If that’s true, there MUST be more blood at the ground and the stairs because a living body with such gunshot wounds lose a lot of blood.

- And now take a look at the sofa which is located downstairs at the foyer - you can see it at this picture



In contrast to the staircase, the photos show a lot of blood spatter on this sofa - spread over a fairly large area. How can so many blood spatter be on this sofa ?? It is located BESIDE the stairs, not at the end of the stairs. No one can tell me that the blood spurted right up on the sofa when Oscar carried Reeva down the stairs !!

IMO - the blood stains on the sofa fit a lot more to the theory that there was a battle at the foyer where Reeva got the first shot before she ran upstairs into the toilet where she got others or maybe the final shot to her head.

 

[Pisto_lius]

Aside from the predictable "Oscar Is Heartbroken" stuff. I wanted to post about the 4AM call:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/31/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-uncle-interview/index.html
.

WOW, the whole Silverwood Estate must be full of OP's people this day. Let me repeat who was there:

- OP's brother Carl
- OP's father Henke (he WAS there)
- OP's sister Aimee
- OP's lawyer Kenny Oldwage
- a locksmith
- Stander
- an unknown doctor
- a female neighbour (maybe the daughter of Stander, also a lawyer, talked with Justin Divaris by phone)
- Justin Divaris
- Samantha Greyvenstein (girlfriend of Justin)
- OP's agent Peet van Zyl
- OP's coach Ampie Louw
- paramedics
- a lot of police officers
- Hilton Botha

Did I forget anyone?

 

[sorrell skye]

Pisto - the blood spatter on the sofa makes no sense to me, either, if OP's account of events is to be believed. In his scenario, if Reeva was shot in the toilet room, how did her blood spatter end up on the sofa?

Not that I'm a blood spatter expert by any means whatsoever, but when I saw the blood drops on the sofa, my first questions were:

1. Where is this sofa in relation to the stairs? (thx to the above pic, that question has been answered - TY Pisto!)

2. Is it possible Reeva was shot in proximity to the sofa, causing this blood spatter to occur on the sofa?

I have more questions, but I'll leave it at these two for now.

Personally, I think too much emphasis has been placed (by both the prosecution & the defense) on whether or not OP was on his stumps versus his prosthetic legs (the defense assumption being that if he was on his stumps, he couldn't have been purposefully attacking Reeva).

IMO, I think it's entirely possible that OP may have been on his stumps and that he could have still been purposefully attacking Reeva, since he himself has stated previously that he has mobility on his stumps.

These recent photos have given us much to think about.

 

[Pisto_lius]

Pisto - the blood spatter on the sofa makes no sense to me, either, if OP's account of events is to be believed. In his scenario, if Reeva was shot in the toilet room, how did her blood spatter end up on the sofa?

Not that I'm a blood spatter expert by any means whatsoever, but when I saw the blood drops on the sofa, my first questions were:

1. Where is this sofa in relation to the stairs? (thx to the above pic, that question has been answered - TY Pisto!)

2. BIB 1 - Is it possible Reeva was shot in proximity to the sofa, causing this blood spatter to occur on the sofa?

I have more questions, but I'll leave it at these two for now.

Personally, I think too much emphasis has been placed (by both the prosecution & the defense) on whether or not OP was on his stumps versus his prosthetic legs (the defense assumption being that if he was on his stumps, he couldn't have been purposefully attacking Reeva).

BIB 2 - IMO, I think it's entirely possible that OP may have been on his stumps and that he could have still been purposefully attacking Reeva, since he himself has stated previously that he has mobility on his stumps.

These recent photos have given us much to think about.

BIB 1 - This is why I believe there was a battle at the foyer where Reeva got the first shot. She was hit in the hip or arm, ran through the foyer, past the sofa, trying to dodge Oscar's attacs while her blood sprayed on the sofa. And for this scenario - IMO - the reports of the trophies strewn across the floor would fit.

BIB 2 - I agree, that's possible

 

[sorrell skye]

Something else may be of significance in these recent items.

From here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ter-Oscar-Pistorius-shot-dead-girlfriend.html

It says: "In one poignant scene, a Valentine's gift for Pistorius, 26, from his girlfriend remains unopened."

This could tie in with reports of loud arguing etc heard on Wed. night, implying that Oscar never even opened his gift?

This report, as well as the image of the gift in the video you posted upthread (TY for that video, BTW), shows the gift clearly intact.

At the very least, it disproves the rumor we read about many weeks ago regarding the gift being found smashed.

 

[sorrell skye]

BIB 1 - This is why I believe there was a battle at the foyer where Reeva got the first shot. She was hit in the hip or arm, ran through the foyer, past the sofa, trying to dodge Oscar's attacs while her blood sprayed on the sofa. And for this scenario - IMO - the reports of the trophies strewn across the floor would fit.

BIB 2 - I agree, that's possible

If OP first shot Reeva near the foyer, why was no shell casing found downstairs? Do you think he may have collected it when he went downstairs to unlock the front door? Also - if he shot Reeva downstairs, wouldn't there have been blood spatter on other surfaces near the sofa, as well?

I'm still trying to make sense of this and to work out what it may mean, without getting too attached to a scenario.

I'm interested in how you & others think it may have played out. At this point, I'm open to various possibilities.

 

[Pisto_lius]

This report, as well as the image of the gift in the video you posted upthread (TY for that video, BTW), shows the gift clearly intact.

At the very least, it disproves the rumor we read about many weeks ago regarding the gift being found smashed.

I don't know about the gift was found smashed - as I remember they reported only about the smashed trophies. Do you have a link for the smashed gift rumors?

 

[sorrell skye]

From Shane's youtube link, I'm wondering what the evidence arrow markers on the shower door are indicating (@ 0:48 in the video).

the bloody bathroom where Oscar Pistorius shot his lover dead - YouTube

 

[sorrell skye]

I don't know about the gift was found smashed - as I remember they reported only about the smashed trophies. Do you have a link for the smashed gift rumors?

Sorry, Pisto, I don't. I just remember reading posts here many weeks ago about a rumor that the framed photo Reeva had given to OP as a Valentine's Day gift had been found smashed. I didn't put any stock in that rumor, and I don't remember what website the now debunked info came from. It probably came from one of the tabloid websites.

 

[cityslick]

If OP first shot Reeva near the foyer, why was no shell casing found downstairs? Do you think he may have collected it when he went downstairs to unlock the front door? Also - if he shot Reeva downstairs, wouldn't there have been blood spatter on other surfaces near the sofa, as well?

I'm still trying to make sense of this and to work out what it may mean, without getting too attached to a scenario.

I'm interested in how you & others think it may have played out. At this point, I'm open to various possibilities.

Isn't it possible when he was carrying her down the stairs he was next to the railing and her blood dripped down (especially if he was lifting her above the railing and her head was over the railing)?

 

[Pisto_lius]

If OP first shot Reeva near the foyer, why was no shell casing found downstairs? BIB 1 - Do you think he may have collected it when he went downstairs to unlock the front door? BIB 2 - Also - if he shot Reeva downstairs, wouldn't there have been blood spatter on other surfaces near the sofa, as well?

I'm still trying to make sense of this and to work out what it may mean, without getting too attached to a scenario.

I'm interested in how you & others think it may have played out. At this point, I'm open to various possibilities.

BIB 1 - Maybe OP or one of the other people who came at the house before police arrived?

Maybe this cartridge was kicked away (in a corner, under the sofa or somewhere else) so someone found it later and didn't give it to the police.

Remember the bullet inside the toilet bowl and OP's other phone. First we heard about this things during the bail hearing because OP's lawyers didn't talk about this immidiately.

BIB 2 - If Reeva was hit close proximity the sofa and then directly ran upstairs, this would explain why there were

a) blood spatters only at the sofa
b) only a few drops of blood on the lower stairs
c) blood spatters at the wall of the stairs

I said weeks ago - when it was reported they found blood spatters at the wall of the stairs - I don't believe those blood spatters originated when OP carried Reeva's body downstairs - with "dangling head and arms". Now I saw the blood spatters at the wall I'm more than ever sure this couldn't be because this means, he must have shaken her body extremely. When carrying a body downstairs the blood drops to the ground (stairs) - it doesn't spray up to the wall that is several inches away from the body - certainly not with gunshot wounds on hip and arm and either the head.

 

[Pisto_lius]

I'm wondering what the evidence arrow markers on the shower door are indicating (@ 0:48 in the video).

Good point - I not even noticed this . Maybe police marked fingerprints at the shower door and tested whether they are from Reeva or OP to determine exactly where Reeva had moved anywhere in the bathroom - IDK

I just remember reading posts here many weeks ago about a rumor that the framed photo Reeva had given to OP as a Valentine's Day gift had been found smashed. I didn't put any stock in that rumor, and I don't remember what website the now debunked info came from. It probably came from one of the tabloid websites.

Is it possible, you're confusing that with a report of Cecil Myers? He told

"I have a printing business, and I had large, framed photographs of Oscar and myself. I smashed them all. I don't want to know anything about him.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...as-told-to-back-off-from-Reeva-Steenkamp.html

 

[sorrell skye]

Isn't it possible when he was carrying her down the stairs he was next to the railing and her blood dripped down (especially if he was lifting her above the railing and her head was over the railing)?

I agree - it's entirely possible that the blood spatter on the sofa occurred when OP was carrying Reeva downstairs - IF Reeva's head was dangling over the railing.

I watched the video again, and the blood drops are scattered along the entire length of the arm of the sofa. The arm of the sofa is perpendicular to that particular flight of the stairway.

It seems like an odd blood spatter pattern, since OP would have been carrying Reeva behind & parallel to the sofa. IF Reeva's head was dangling over the railing, I would have expected the blood spatter to be along the back of the sofa, and perhaps along the back of the arm of the sofa, if the blood was dripping passively as he carried her downstairs.

Passive blood spatter follows gravity. The fact that blood was found along the length of the arm of the sofa (which is perpendicular to the stairs) may suggest something other than passive blood spatter.

But what do I know - I'm not a blood spatter expert. I'm just going off what seems logical in my mind with what little I know about the crime scene.