General Discussion Thread #4

[Estelle]

Well first the 3:08 appears to be the 2nd set of shots--17 minutes after the first (single) shot.

Then RE towels, not sure that matters in any way, and you can find statements made by paramedics and they do not cite that they found her with towels around her.

And as far as giving CPR--maybe.
DId you see the movie, Internal Affairs with Richard Gere playing a real bad cop?

No, Shane, I did not see that movie. What is its relevance?

 

[Estelle]

Well first the 3:08 appears to be the 2nd set of shots--17 minutes after the first (single) shot.

Then RE towels, not sure that matters in any way, and you can find statements made by paramedics and they do not cite that they found her with towels around her.

Non-disclosure does not mean that a blanket and towels had not been put around her earlier to bring her down the stairs.

 

[shane13]

Non-disclosure does not mean that a blanket and towels had not been put around her earlier to bring her down the stairs.

Paramedics were quite graphic and detailed in their statements about her and surroundings, and as I said towels are not needed to explain anything to me.

 

[shane13]

No, Shane, I did not see that movie. What is its relevance?

May not be relevant here of course, or...

Gere plays a bad cop. At one point he shoots his partner, thinking he killed him Then it shows he was still alive as cops and ambulance are heard nearing the scene. He appears to be doing CPR on his former partner, but was really doing something else...

 

[Estelle]

This is a reminder of some of the legal questions in this case

Where will Pistorius' trial take place?

Despite being South Africa's lower courts, regional magistrates' courts can hear all criminal cases barring treason, so it is possible that Pistorius could be tried in such a court.

However, Grant said the high court, which hears cases deemed too serious for magistrates' courts, could be in a better position to hear Pistorius' case.
"Given the interest in this and given the possible sentencing that might follow -- if it is established that this is premeditated -- the high court would be in a better position to hear it and to sentence," he said.

A high court trial could take place before a single judge or before a judge and two lay people, who are usually legal experts such as advocates, academics or retired magistrates, who are known as "assessors." These assessors are restricted though to answering questions of fact.

Their role is to advise the judge, who is not obliged to follow their guidance on questions of law, but they may overrule a single judge on questions of fact.

When will Pistorius' trial begin?

Some high-profile or important cases in South Africa have been fast-tracked and pushed through within a month, but that is "highly, highly exceptional." What is more likely, said Grant, is that the trial would get under way within about six months.


How long is it expected to last?

If the trial follows an ordinary course, Grant said, he would expect it to last four to six months -- but that would depend on how aggressively the defense challenged the prosecution case.

"They could dispute everything, in which case there could be 'trials within trials,' " he said.

But he said the defense would have to balance that "against not appearing to challenge things for the sake of it" and alienating the court.

Grant's understanding is that there are few witnesses that could be called -- neighbors among them -- but that if character was to be raised as an issue, "it could cause an explosion of witnesses."

"It could just drag on forever."

What about appeals?

If the trial is heard in a magistrates' court and Pistorius is convicted, he could potentially appeal from the magistrates' court, to the high court, to the supreme court and even eventually to South Africa's constitutional court.

Can Pistorius get a fair trial?

If the initial court did not give him leave to appeal, he could petition South Africa's chief justice for permission.

The right to appeal depends on whether, based on the facts of the case, the initial judge or magistrate believes a different court could possibly reach a different verdict.

South Africa's highest court, the constitutional court, used to be only for cases regarding constitutional matters, but a recent act of parliament broadened its remit.

What are the sentencing guidelines for premeditated murder?

For premeditated murder, the mandatory sentence in South Africa is a life sentence, which in practice is 25 years unless someone can prove extraordinary circumstances.

Extraordinary circumstances could include a combination of number of factors: for example, that it was a first offense, the age of the person and in Pistorius' case, his disability and the impact this could have had on his actions.

However, Grant said if the court accepted the prosecution's case -- that Pistorius chased Steenkamp into the bathroom and "hunted" her down -- his defense team would be hard-pressed to convince the court that there should be any considerations that should override the repugnance that should be felt.

What happens if Pistorius is found not guilty of premeditated murder?

If Pistorius faces trial for premeditated murder but is found not guilty, he would face a "competent verdict" or lesser charge of culpable homicide, which is based on negligence.

Pistorius is not claiming self-defense; he is claiming to have been mistaken about his need for self-defense. He is denying that he intentionally unlawfully killed Steenkamp.

Grant said the defense boiled down to Pistorius saying "I made a mistake."

If the court were to rule that the mistake was unreasonable -- based on what an objective, ordinary South African would do in the circumstances of the accused -- he would be found guilty of culpable homicide.

Grant said he would expect a court to probably conclude that it is unreasonable to fire at anybody through a closed door regardless of whether they were an intruder, because of the value of human life.

"I'm expecting that if he beats the murder charge, he is in very grave jeopardy of being convicted of culpable homicide," he said.

What would the sentence be if Pistorius were convicted of the lesser charge of culpable homicide?

If Pistorius is convicted of culpable homicide, no minimum sentencing legislation would be triggered. "Courts are able to exercise their complete and ordinary discretion," Grant said.

This means, theoretically, Pistorius could get a non-custodial sentence if convicted of culpable homicide. Grant said there had been examples of people killing a loved one accidentally where they had avoided jail.
If, however, the court took a view that Pistorius had been grossly negligent, Grant said, he would guess the runner could be jailed for up 15 years.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/22/world/africa/pistorius-legal-q-and-a

 

[shane13]

Breaking: Forensics Expert Analyzes New Photos.

From Dr David Klatzow--"South Africa's foremost independent forensic scientist":

Claims they show a downward trajectory favoring the Prosecution.
Also says a reflection of the photographer can be seen in the shower door--I noticed that as well.
Insinuates things about Botha.
Says door should not have been removed.

I think the last is not astute--if it was left there, prob. some cop or someone would have taken the door itself!


http://www.citypress.co.za/news/did-a-cop-leak-oscar-pics/

 

[shane13]

Interesting video and comments from Dr. Klatzow on some cases in SA. Cops messed up badly.
See from 5:00 on

Dr David Klatzow said that biggest enemy to the police was in fact the police self - YouTube

 

[Estelle]

So from what I understand, OP will appear in court on Tuesday, June 4, (with his new beard) for the indictment.

An "indictment" means that your case (the one for which you have been arrested) has been presented to a judge and the prosecutor has demonstrated that there is enough convincing evidence against you to warrant your being prosecuted in court.

So does this mean that all that will happen on Tuesday is that the charge of premeditated murder will be confirmed and a trial date will be set?

Will OP will then have to plea innocent or guilty?

And all that will take 10 minutes.

From what I can predict, there will not be any surprises, OP will be formally charged with premeditated murder and he will plead innocent. Did the media report that the new trial date will be in August? I cannot find that article.

 

[Carol70]

Just read the You article. 2 things that stand out to me but otherwise no new info regarding the case.

1. Reevas parents emphatically DENY that Reeva was once in an abusive relationship. They said it was just rumor and I quote June steenkamp " Reeva became interested in giving talks about the abuse of women and perhaps someone misunderstood that she was talking from her own experience"

2. June and Reeva were both in therapy at some point to deal with the trauma associated with a home invasion 4 years ago. Apparently, it was a very traumatic experience and they were both lucky to escape with their lives.

No 2 is quite something. If, indeed, OP was screaming there was a intruder, I can only imagine what was going through Reeva mind.

 

[Carol70]

Estelle, the investigators say they will be done with their investigation in August, it's not to say it will go to trial then. All that will happen this week will be requests for the case to be remanded until a later date. This may happen a few times before trial. My guess, trial will start next year sometime. To be honest, I'm not sure if OP will enter his plea this week or at a later date but suspect it will be at a later date.

 

[Estelle]

Breaking: Forensics Expert Analyzes New Photos.

From Dr David Klatzow--"South Africa's foremost independent forensic scientist":

Claims they show a downward trajectory favoring the Prosecution.
Also says a reflection of the photographer can be seen in the shower door--I noticed that as well.
Insinuates things about Botha.
Says door should not have been removed.

I think the last is not astute--if it was left there, prob. some cop or someone would have taken the door itself!


http://www.citypress.co.za/news/did-a-cop-leak-oscar-pics/

So this looks good for the Prosecution that OP did have his prosthetic legs on when he shot RS. If so, that will prove that OP lied in his Affidavit which will add more credence to his guilt.

They will probably find out who that photographer was if his reflection was there.

IMO Botha could have been bribed by one of OP's team to say and do some of the things he has said and done by passing cash to him at the crime scene from OP's safe. Also, although Botha has denied not being paid any money for the two articles in the media, I would not think that a guy like Botha would do those interviews for nothing. Also whoever the photographer was would have been paid a fortune for those photos. IMO Botha could have been that photographer. His justification would probably be that he needed the money for his son's university education. Police acceptance of bribes seems to be a way of life in many countries. Is the reason why OP has always got off scott-free because OP always paid off the police as he was concerned about his public image and police knew this? I think that one of the many reasons Botha left the police force (if he did it of his own free will) is because he saw the opportunity to make money out of this case and may not have felt he could do that while still employed by SAPS. The money trail needs to be investigated as the MSM will not reveal their sources. IMO Botha has tried his best to appear on both sides in this case - appear to be convinced of OP's guilt and at the same time, admit to his possible contamination of the crime scene and the other inconsistencies at the first bail hearing.

 

[shane13]

Just read the You article. 2 things that stand out to me but otherwise no new info regarding the case.

1. Reevas parents emphatically DENY that Reeva was once in an abusive relationship. They said it was just rumor and I quote June steenkamp " Reeva became interested in giving talks about the abuse of women and perhaps someone misunderstood that she was talking from her own experience"

2. June and Reeva were both in therapy at some point to deal with the trauma associated with a home invasion 4 years ago. Apparently, it was a very traumatic experience and they were both lucky to escape with their lives.

No 2 is quite something. If, indeed, OP was screaming there was a intruder, I can only imagine what was going through Reeva mind.

Strange.
The entire media seems to have said her 1st longterm bf was the one.

 

[shane13]

Is this the photographer?
Can you see what looks like an older white person, with white hair,possibly glasses?
Not sure if male or female.

Can someone process this. Make sure its not an artifact.
We may have him or her.

 

[Carol70]

Strange.
The entire media seems to have said her 1st longterm bf was the one.

I know, very strange. The notes from the speech she was supposed to give indictate she was abused??

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crim...amp-never-got-the-chance-to-make-8496896.html

5. I was in an abusive relationship at the same time (his mother used to abuse him) and all together these factors encouraged my move to Jozi.

Total contradiction!

 

[Carol70]

Is this the photographer?
Can you see what looks like an older white person, with white hair,possibly glasses?
Not sure if male or female.

Can someone process this. Make sure its not an artifact.
We may have him or her.

Shane, in the color version I have, only the legs/shoes are visible. To me, it looks like a male wearing jeans and either blue takkies or boots with protective covers over.

 

[Carol70]

The color version. Taken from Dailymail.

 

[shane13]

Shane, in the color version I have, only the legs/shoes are visible. To me, it looks like a male wearing jeans and either blue takkies or boots with protective covers over.

Not sure if we are looking at the same area.
I see someone wearing a white shirt and their head above that.

 

[Carol70]

Not sure if we are looking at the same area.
I see someone wearing a white shirt and their head above that.

Lol, top right hand corner?? I can't see what you are seeing!
I definitely see blue shoes or booties. Only legs, perhaps wearing jeans.
No face or hair I'm afraid.

 

[shane13]

Lol, top right hand corner?? I can't see what you are seeing!
I definitely see blue shoes or booties. Only legs, perhaps wearing jeans.
No face or hair I'm afraid.

I dunno.

The forensic fellow himself said "Klatzow believes the Sky footage shows the photographer himself in a reflection on the shower window."

That's gotta be more than feet, and what I am seeing.

You OTOH must be an Elvis fan--blue suede shoes.

 

[Gibson67]

just started following this thread and Carol I am seeing the same thing you are
-white shirt round neckline
-grey/white hair
-dark glasses
-possible a doctors mask over face in blue