General Discussion Thread #4

[Estelle]

NO MENTION OF CRICKET BAT BUT GUNSHOT WOUNDS ARE SAID TO HAVE CAUSED REEVA'S DEATH

Pistorius 'DID beat model girlfriend with a cricket bat' before he shot her, police tell horrified family - and relatives have seen her extensive head injuries

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nkamp-cricket-bat-shot-her.html#ixzz2cQYWToC6

So tragic. Reeva’s family was reportedly notified by police that her skull was bashed in by a cricket bat, allegedly wielded by Oscar Pistorius.
Reeva Steenkamp’s grieving relatives were reportedly told by police that Oscar Pistorius murdered their daughter, using a cricket bat before allegedly shooting her.

Injuries consistent with being hit with the bat were also evident on Reeva’s head when her family viewed her body before cremation, The Mail reports.

I guess we will have to wait until the trial to find out about whether OP used the cricket bat first and then shot her with the intention of killing her.

 

[Interested Bystander]

The PT list of witnesses shows 9 from Silverwoods Country Estate. Does this indicate that a number of people heard something? I am assuming none were security as I suspect they lived elsewhere but I could be very wrong there.

Witness Pieter Can Der Merwe is Director of the SA Doping Control Lab. Any thoughts about this? Would he be called as a witness if there is nothing to hide?

 

[Estelle]

I just re-read the affidavit of Pistorius. Thanks to Pisto for posting it again.

I suddenly thought about the fan which I have always just accepted before as it being normal to have a fan on a balcony.

However, it is IMO very strange to have a fan sitting on a balcony. I live in Sydney, Australia, which has a similar climate to Pretoria in February. I have never been to a house in all my world travels or in my city or country where anyone has ever kept a fan on their balcony as we would have fresh air there. In February, it could get hot and we would always have it inside the house to cool the room down before we go to bed. But we would not put a fan outside as any moisture or rain could destroy the electrics even if there was a cover on the top of it. Even if it were safe outside, we could not be bothered bringing it in every day.

Does anyone agree with this?

 

[soozieqtips]

Taken from twitter:-

"Some of the state witnesses heard a woman scream, followed by moments of silence, then heard gunshots and then more screaming."

How on earth does his affidavit stand up if "some" not one witnesses heard screaming, silence, gunshots and more screaming. I am sure the PT must be feeling a little more confident.

I find the huddled prayers in front of the TV cameras out of place and no doubt for public consumption. Call me a cynic. Maybe this is because I am not religious but it seemed inappropriate in a court room, to me. Is this normal behaviour in a court, I genuinely do not know.

It seems to be normal behaviour for OP and his family who also have no problems leaking private information if it puts OP in a positive light, or trying to get people to see OP as the real victim instead of Reeva. It's all about what OP has lost and how much he's suffering after 'accidentally' killing the 'love of his life'. Yeah, right...

As for the neighbours who heard screaming and then gunshots, I think it's been said that it would have been impossible to have heard shouting from the distance they were listening from. But I do remember one pair of witnesses who said they heard screaming from only 50 metres away. Since OP hasn't at any point mentioned a row between him and Reeva that evening, he'll have some explaining to do if the evidence of screaming can somehow be proved within a reasonable doubt.

And as far as forgetting the password for his messages app - how convenient, and who the hell believes it? He said he was trying to 'protect' himself and Reeva. What a joke. He knew she was in the house, so how was failing to check where she was before shooting through the door 4 times in any way linked to trying to protect her? The guy's a liar and a fantasist and I hope if it's proved he committed the crime that he loses his liberty for decades and doesn't get out until he's old. Even that is better than what Reeva faced.

By the way, I just wanted to say a big thank you to everyone who's been posting. I haven't had time to add anything for a while, but I do read the posts and appreciate how much time everyone has spent exchanging thoughts and posting new information.

:tyou:

 

[Interested Bystander]

WAS PISTORIUS PHYSICAL DISABILITY A MITIGATING FACTOR?



List of United States Supreme Court cases involving mental health - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OP said he felt "vulnerable" as he was on his stumps.

Yes, Pistorius did say that but he also said he had good mobility on his stumps. He had the gun, was a crack shot by his own admission and the door to the toilet cubicle was locked, though perhaps he would not have known that immediately but the door was at least closed. I don't think he would feel overly vulnerable in these circumstances? Maybe I am missing his point. IMO this man never felt vulnerable in any respect but it does give him a chance to lie to the court in order to sway the judge's opinion.

 

[Estelle]

The PT list of witnesses shows 9 from Silverwoods Country Estate. Does this indicate that a number of people heard something? I am assuming none were security as I suspect they lived elsewhere but I could be very wrong there.

Witness Pieter Can Der Merwe is Director of the SA Doping Control Lab. Any thoughts about this? Would he be called as a witness if there is nothing to hide?

In a previous post of mine, it stated that 17 of the witnesses were from Silverwoods Country Estate but you have obviously counted them and found nine. IMO they will be a combination of ear witnesses who heard the arguing and Reeva screaming and people called by OP to come to his rescue plus the person working for OP. I am not sure what address the security people would use plus some people could have moved out since.

As Francois Hougaard is not being called as a witness, there must be nothing for him to add so we can assume that if Pieter Can Der Merwe, Director of the SA Doping Control Lab, is being called he must have something to add about what was found in those boxes in the drawers in Pistorius bedroom. That will be interesting!

 

[Estelle]

Gone is the bravado. Gone is the tough guy who for inexplicable reasons — after rising to fame as the Blade Runner, the man who overcame impossible odds and achieved a measure of Olympian glory — began hanging out with skinheads and engaging in obnoxious, violent and often frightening behavior. Now the tables are turned and instead of the arrogant Oscar Pistorius that we had come to loathe, we have a frightened young man who prays with his family, tears in his eyes. How the mighty have fallen and we might even feel a measure of pity for Pistorius was it not for the fact the Reeva Steenkamp is also gone — gone to wherever people go when they are struck down in the prime of life by unnecessary bullets fired from unnecessary guns.

http://allthingscrimeblog.com/2013/...h-the-premeditated-murder-of-reeva-steenkamp/

 

[Pisto_lius]

"Oscar must face justice"

PRETORIA – Minister for Women, Children and People with Disabilities Lulu Xingwana says she wants to see the courts dish out the strongest possible sentence against Oscar Pistorius and to ensure he doesn't flee justice.

Xingwana was at the court, saying she was there to represent the Steenkamp family.

“We are here on their behalf. They have said that they would like to hear the truth.” She spoke strongly about her hopes for the case against Pistorius.

“We are saying to the courts: we want to see the toughest sentences and we also want to make sure that the accused does not run away, that they finally face justice.”

She also said the provincial government in the family's home province of the Eastern Cape has visited them to offer support.

The NPA's Medupi Simasiku says the 107 witnesses named in the indictment revealed on Monday will assist with the trial. “Everyone has complied with us and we believe that the whole trial will run smoothly as and when they are called.

http://ewn.co.za/2013/08/19/Womens-minister-Oscar-must-face-justice

 

[Interested Bystander]

In a previous post of mine, it stated that 17 of the witnesses were from Silverwoods Country Estate but you have obviously counted them and found nine. IMO they will be a combination of ear witnesses who heard the arguing and Reeva screaming and people called by OP to come to his rescue plus the person working for OP. I am not sure what address the security people would use plus some people could have moved out since.

As Francois Hougaard is not being called as a witness, there must be nothing for him to add so we can assume that if Pieter Can Der Merwe, Director of the SA Doping Control Lab, is being called he must have something to add about what was found in those boxes in the drawers in Pistorius bedroom. That will be interesting!

Many apologies, you are correct. I must have scrolled too quickly and missed some. Even more reasons to be hopeful that there will be some good evidence. You say some may be pro Pistorius witnesses. Would there be any benefit in the Prosecution calling those due to the the risk of providing support for Pistorius? Would not the Defense be doing that with the PT questioning them whilst still on the stand? I am sorry but I know nothing about court proceedings.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

When Carl, Aimee and Oscar held hands in court and prayed, I am afraid I do not like the hypocrisy of people using their religion like that.

"Thou shall not kill"

For people to think how religious and holy and united those Pistorian siblings are...And at the back seat Uncle Arnold is sitting proud of them.. But he was right.. didn't he say OP prayed all the time ?

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

I just re-read the affidavit of Pistorius. Thanks to Pisto for posting it again.

I suddenly thought about the fan which I have always just accepted before as it being normal to have a fan on a balcony.

However, it is IMO very strange to have a fan sitting on a balcony. I live in Sydney, Australia, which has a similar climate to Pretoria in February. I have never been to a house in all my world travels or in my city or country where anyone has ever kept a fan on their balcony as we would have fresh air there. In February, it could get hot and we would always have it inside the house to cool the room down before we go to bed. But we would not put a fan outside as any moisture or rain could destroy the electrics even if there was a cover on the top of it. Even if it were safe outside, we could not be bothered bringing it in every day.

Does anyone agree with this?

I never thought he would say he was using it in the open air balcony!
There arent even chairs there I guess..Never heard /seen such a thing either . I was thinking he would lie if asked saying for decoration purposes .. Not fitted his bedroom or there was not much space in his bdroom.. Really funny!!

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

By DEBORA PATTA / CBS NEWS/ August 19, 2013, 4:21 AM
Oscar Pistorius formally charged with premeditated murder of girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp

Also on the witness list are several former girlfriends who it's understood will testify about Pistorius' previous aggressive behavior. On that particular theme is witness number 34, South African boxing star Kevin Lerena, who was with Pistorius when he fired a loaded gun in a crowded Johannesburg restaurant last year. Lerena was shot in the foot and will form part of the state's case, which aims to portray Pistorius as a trigger-happy, aggressive bully.

The defense wants them heard separately and not as part of the murder case. CBS News understands the defense is unhappy about lumping all these charges together as they see it as an attempt on the part of the prosecution to "assassinate" Pistorius' character.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162...ditated-murder-of-girlfriend-reeva-steenkamp/

 

[Pisto_lius]

Many apologies, you are correct. I must have scrolled too quickly and missed some. Even more reasons to be hopeful that there will be some good evidence. You say some may be pro Pistorius witnesses. Would there be any benefit in the Prosecution calling those due to the the risk of providing support for Pistorius? Would not the Defense be doing that with the PT questioning them whilst still on the stand? I am sorry but I know nothing about court proceedings.

BIB - All witnesses who are friends or relatives of OP but called by prosecutors to testify against OP are called "hostile witnesses".

They are "hostile witnesses" because it's expected they will give an unfavorable testimony as witnesses evidence against the defendant/accused even if they come from the ranks of the defendant/accused "well-meaning witnesses", ie his "own" witnesses.

After prosecutors did their direct examination DT could take these witnesses in cross-examination to make the best of a bad job.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Thank you for explaining.

 

[Pisto_lius]

NO MENTION OF CRICKET BAT BUT GUNSHOT WOUNDS ARE SAID TO HAVE CAUSED REEVA'S DEATH


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nkamp-cricket-bat-shot-her.html#ixzz2cQYWToC6

I guess we will have to wait until the trial to find out about whether OP used the cricket bat first and then shot her with the intention of killing her.

If the hypothetical blow on the head with the cricket bat wasn't fatal and afterwards he shot her in the head the autopsy result "gunshot wounds caused the death" nevertheless could be right.

 

[Interested Bystander]

BIB - All witnesses who are friends or relatives of OP but called by prosecutors to testify against OP are called "hostile witnesses".

They are "hostile witnesses" because it's expected they will give an unfavorable testimony as witnesses evidence against the defendant/accused even if they come from the ranks of the defendant/accused "well-meaning witnesses", ie his "own" witnesses.

After prosecutors did their direct examination DT could take these witnesses in cross-examination to make the best of a bad job.

I have just read the Wiki entry for hostile witnesses and it now makes much more sense. Leading questions and the use of Gestalt Psychology could provide some interesting insight into their responses.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

I thought it was just the opposite :notgood:

From 22 FEB bail hearing

10:34 – Nel: Why did Pistorius not call the security guard after the shooting? The guard called him.

http://www.99fm.com.na/live-updates-oscar-pistorius-back-in-court/

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2013/08/19/oscar-pistorius-formally-indicted-trial-set-for-march/

Prosecutors also said in the indictment papers that Pistorius shot "with the intention to kill a person," and even if his story is found to be true, he was still guilty of murder. That secondary argument seemingly allows for the possibility that Pistorius could escape the more serious charge of premeditated murder, but still be convicted of murder without premeditation, which carries a sentence of 15 years in prison.

The court set March 3-20 as the trial dates. Prosecutors submitted a list of 107 witnesses who they can call at the trial, including members of Pistorius' own family: His uncle Arnold, sister Aimee and brother Carl. Also listed were people who lived or worked in the gated community where Steenkamp was killed, as well as police officers, paramedics, doctors and friends of Steenkamp.

 

[Patticake]

I don't know if this was cleared up but I'm confused on the sequencing as well. If this is to be believed, Reeva screamed, then was shot:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...esses-heard-a-woman-scream-then-gunshots.html

Oscar Pistorius murder charges: witnesses 'heard a woman scream, then gunshots'

Oscar Pistorius was officially charged with murder during a court hearing on Monday as the prosecution revealed it has witnesses who heard a woman screaming before gunshots on the night he allegedly killed his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp.

What was the sequence, I have been reading:

WOMAN SCREAMS........SHOTS........WOMAN SCREAMS

Before we were told:

SHOT.......17 MINUTES SILENCE......MORE SHOTS

Which one is correct?

 

[Pisto_lius]

I thought it was just the opposite :notgood:

From 22 FEB bail hearing

http://www.99fm.com.na/live-updates-oscar-pistorius-back-in-court/

OP claimed in his affidavit, he called Stander and Netcare. But the cell phones investigators found at the scene didn't show any call. So prosecutors believed OP lied in his affidavit untill Roux told them there was another (the 5th) cell phone.