George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin General discussion #2

[polleypockets]

No, He would not. HE hit his nose with something.. could have been his head for all we know but the back of GZ's head with the blood would not have touched TM

but thats not what GZ said - he said that TM punched him 25 t 30 times in the face iirc - imo we can't speculate some thing that even GZ never said happen - imo to me thats like saying TA room mate killed him, even though JA confessed :twocents:

 

[corundogs]

nope this is what he said the night of the shooting

"“I don’t know if I pushed him off me [or] he fell off me, either way I got on top of him and I pushed his arms apart,” Zimmerman said as he demonstrated how he spread Trayvon’s arms away from his body. He told the officer that he didn’t remember how he got on top of his victim and continued with his version of events. “But I got on his back and moved his arms apart because when he was repeatedly hitting me in the face and the head,” Zimmerman said, “I thought he had something in his hands. So, I moved his hands apart.” Trayvon, he said, was face down. Again, he says the neighbor with the flashlight came out, he asked that person to help him restrain Trayvon. The police arrived perhaps less than a minute later and he stood up, holstered his weapon and put his hands up."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...zimmerman-trips-over-trayvons-arms-and-hands/

he said he didn't know, but that he did get n TM back and spread his arms, but the pic b4 PD arrived shows TM arms under neath the body

This again makes no sense. It doesn't match what we know what happened in the 911 call - screams and then gunshot.

If this is describing what happened AFTER he shot Trayvon...again, it makes no sense.

Why would he need help restraining Trayvon if he was dead?

How did he get Trayvon on his back, and able to get his hands apart...if he was hitting him in the head??

How does one repeatedly hit one in the face and head...and have no blood or DNA or anything injuries on those hands???

I guess this statement when I read it last year is what made no sense to me...and most likely what made me feel the way I do now.

It just makes no sense.

 

[marlap]

For one thing, stalking is absolutely an aggressive act. Further, the presence of the gun indicates that GZ almost certainly wasn't in fear of anything, since he was capable of responding with deadly force - of course, the fact that he followed Martin to begin with also indicates his lack of fear.

If you are being followed by an unknown individual (or even known, if you know the person to be dangerous) is FRIGHTENING. I'm baffled as to how certain people don't think it wouldn't be. Frightening enough to flee, which Martin obviously did. Zimmerman even admits that. Perhaps the person who knowingly has the ability to respond with deadly force and obviously isn't afraid for his life is the aggressor in this situation. That is what makes the most sense.

What gives a person the right to respond is being confronted, which is exactly what happened when GZ confronted TM. TM was also within his rights to demand to know why GZ was following him, which he did. As to what GZ did at that point, we don't know. Given his lack of fear of Martin, and his ability to respond with deadly force against what was obviously a kid, Zimmerman, imo, likely tried to detain Martin. Martin for his part, likely didn't feel like being detained by some random stranger. Fight ensues. That's on Zimmerman, not on Martin. If you get your tail kicked after starting fight, it's your own fault.

I agree. Plus there's a difference between someone who is randomly happening to walk behind you and someone who was first slowly following you in a car....who stops the car, and then starts walking after you. THAT is scary.

 

[PaintingAnemone]

Please forgive me if this come across wrongly, and I do not intend this as snark... But if you or your children start beating someone that was doing nothing more than following them, then you or your children will most likely wind up at least taking a ride in a police car and potentially having to post bond.

In order for self-defense to come into play, there has to be a physical act of aggression, or the individual has to verbally threaten you ("I'm going to kill you"). I've said this before in the thread yesterday - but I hope that any reasonable person can understand why the law cannot allow people to beat down a person that was guilty of doing nothing but walking within the proximity of someone else (which is a completely lawful activity).

Your version of things sounds incredibly simplistic. So Zimmerman was just out for a nice walk, and suddenly he was being beaten for no reason, with no preamble, just for being a good guy? Come on, now, that's absolutely not what happened, if for no other reason than that we KNOW they talked briefly before the scuffle.

Again, stalking someone is aggressive. Doing it in the dark to someone who is actively trying to get away from you is aggressive. Zimmerman ignored what the dispatch told him, ignored what any normal person would have done, and followed. He has a history of assault, he had been recently training in physical combat, he has a gun on his belt (not against the law, but certainly allows him the ability to respond with deadly force), and he was determined that this particular "punk" wasn't going to get away. The other person had iced tea and skittles. Which of those sounds more likely to start a fight to you?

** Edited to remove accidental misquote.

 

[m00c0w]

My exact questions when I looked at it.

May have been due to shadows and lighting.

 

[iluvmua]

but thats not what GZ said - he said that TM punched him 25 t 30 times in the face iirc - imo we can't speculate some thing that even GZ never said happen - imo to me thats like saying TA room mate killed him, even though JA confessed :twocents:

Please find a link, TY.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

but thats not what GZ said - he said that TM punched him 25 t 30 times in the face iirc - imo we can't speculate some thing that even GZ never said happen - imo to me thats like saying TA room mate killed him, even though JA confessed :twocents:

I am not following this..

He hit GZ. No doubt.. do you count if someone is hitting you in the head or flailing at you?? I don't think I would be. It is like when people say that they were scared and it felt like hours but really it was only minutes.

I think in the dark, pitch dark and getting beat on by a bigger guy than him it must have been terrifying and it felt like 30 blows. But we all know if you have ever been in a fight there are few clean shots. Most of it is defended or partial blows.

 

[legalmania]

GZ was afraid, he didn't want to give out his address because of fear of retribution, he was on the phone with LE which precludes any nonsense about stalking. TM fit a specific profile of people who had been committing burglaries in the area, so the racism charge is just knee jerk name calling.

If GZ would have waited in the car as he was told by LE on the 911 call he wouldn't be sitting in the defendants chair and Trayvon would be alive.

 

[ohiogirl]

This again makes no sense. It doesn't match what we know what happened in the 911 call - screams and then gunshot.

If this is describing what happened AFTER he shot Trayvon...again, it makes no sense.

Why would he need help restraining Trayvon if he was dead?

How did he get Trayvon on his back, and able to get his hands apart...if he was hitting him in the head??

How does one repeatedly hit one in the face and head...and have no blood or DNA or anything injuries on those hands???

I guess this statement when I read it last year is what made no sense to me...and most likely what made me feel the way I do now.

It just makes no sense.

GZ probably didn't know immediately that TM was dead. jmo

He didn't get TM on his back. He said HE got on TM's back.

 

[DIBSY]

For one thing, stalking is absolutely an aggressive act. Further, the presence of the gun indicates that GZ almost certainly wasn't in fear of anything, since he was capable of responding with deadly force - of course, the fact that he followed Martin to begin with also indicates his lack of fear.

If you are being followed by an unknown individual (or even known, if you know the person to be dangerous) is FRIGHTENING. I'm baffled as to how certain people don't think it wouldn't be. Frightening enough to flee, which Martin obviously did. Zimmerman even admits that. Perhaps the person who knowingly has the ability to respond with deadly force and obviously isn't afraid for his life is the aggressor in this situation. That is what makes the most sense.

What gives a person the right to respond is being confronted, which is exactly what happened when GZ confronted TM. TM was also within his rights to demand to know why GZ was following him, which he did. As to what GZ did at that point, we don't know. Given his lack of fear of Martin, and his ability to respond with deadly force against what was obviously a kid, Zimmerman, imo, likely tried to detain Martin. Martin for his part, likely didn't feel like being detained by some random stranger. Fight ensues. That's on Zimmerman, not on Martin. If you get your tail kicked after starting fight, it's your own fault.

It is very disconcerting to be afraid and alone. TM's obvious fear, anxiety and attempt to escape GZ's unwarranted agression is heartbreaking in it's futility.
No doubt GZ will be convicted for this hate crime, evidenced by what GZ said when he called 911, imv.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

He assumed EVERY African American was suspicious and up to no good...or to use his words again "This guy looks like he is up to no good, or he's on drugs or something"

He was profiling and went looking to make his vigilante arrest...when things didn't go as he planned, he shot an UNARMED TEENAGER

That is not at all what he said. In the beginning he was not even sure he was an AA.

 

[m00c0w]

Your version of things sounds incredibly simplistic. So Zimmerman was just out for a nice walk, and suddenly he was being beaten for no reason, with no preamble, just for being a good guy? Come on, now, that's absolutely not what happened, if for no other reason than that we KNOW they talked briefly before the scuffle.

Again, stalking someone is aggressive. Doing it in the dark to someone who is actively trying to get away from you is aggressive. Zimmerman ignored what the dispatch told him, ignored what any normal person would have done, and followed. He has a history of assault, he had been recently training in physical combat, he has a gun on his belt (not against the law, but certainly allows him the ability to respond with deadly force), and he was determined that this particular "punk" wasn't going to get away. The other person had iced tea and skittles. Which of those sounds more likely to start a fight to you?

The events that we know took place do not fit the codified definition of "stalking" via Florida law. "Stalking" is a disingenuous word to use to describe Zimmerman watching a person.

And, in my opinion, I'd say the person more likely to start a fight might be the kid with a history of drug use, potential gang activity, talking about illegal ownership of guns with friends, multiple thefts, and was currently suspended from school.

 

[iluvmua]

If GZ would have waited in the car as he was told by LE on the 911 call he wouldn't be sitting in the defendants chair and Trayvon would be alive.

911 taker said on the stand he can only make suggestions , not orders like LE would have done.

 

[Nymeria]

I think maybe GZ tried to hold TM in place, maybe grabbed his arm or something and TM, already scared, maybe hit him then, so GZ shot him.
Also, I think GZ would have had the gun so that TM could see it, scaring TM further.

I have no evidence of this, just like we have no evidence that GZ did not show TM the gun, or that TM hit GZ for no reason.

That is the scenario that has been running through my mind today also Marlap. It seems to make a lot of sense.
And I keep looking at both mens clothing, if you are on the ground on a rainy night scuffling (and on both on their knees at some point as we have heard claimed) how are you avoiding grass or mud stains on the knees of your pants?

 

[m00c0w]

It is very disconcerting to be afraid and alone. TM's obvious fear, anxiety and attempt to escape GZ's unwarranted agression is heartbreaking in it's futility.
No doubt GZ will be convicted for this hate crime, evidenced by what GZ said when he called 911, imv.

Was the FBI's investigation into "hate crime" allegations not good enough for you?

 

[momtective]

Please forgive me if this come across wrongly, and I do not intend this as snark... But if you or your children start beating someone that was doing nothing more than following them, then you or your children will most likely wind up at least taking a ride in a police car and potentially having to post bond.

In order for self-defense to come into play, there has to be a physical act of aggression, or the individual has to verbally threaten you ("I'm going to kill you"). I've said this before in the thread yesterday - but I hope that any reasonable person can understand why the law cannot allow people to beat down a person that was guilty of doing nothing but walking within the proximity of someone else (which is a completely lawful activity).

He wasn't just casually following TM...he chased him down. I would see that as threatening and I know my boys ages 14-19 would too.Flight or fight comes into play and TM chose to fight. I so wish he would have just hauled arse and got away from GZ....sadly he didn't.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

If GZ would have waited in the car as he was told by LE on the 911 call he wouldn't be sitting in the defendants chair and Trayvon would be alive.

HE was not told to get back in the car. Not once. Yesterday on the stand, 911 guy said they are not allowed to tell people what to do because of liability.

 

[corundogs]

GZ probably didn't know immediately that TM was dead. jmo

He didn't get TM on his back. He said HE got on TM's back.

Then how in the WORLD did he get shot at close range in the chest??

If he was on his back?

That's why I said it makes NO SENSE based on what we know we heard on the 911 call...and what we have seen of the evidence.

He was shot from the front - NOT THE BACK!

 

[iluvmua]

He wasn't just casually following TM...he chased him down. I would see that as threatening and I know my boys ages 14-19 would too.Flight or fight comes into play and TM chose to fight. I so wish he would have just hauled arse and got away from GZ....sadly he didn't.

Find me the police reports or a link where it states GZ was chasing down Trayvon.

 

[Words2Serve]

Of course we know TM started the fight, he was not in GZ's sight and GZ was walking back to his vehicle. TM was clearly the aggressor, according to all the evidence. Why would GZ even bother starting a fight after he got off the phone with LE? He knew cops were on the way. The problem is, people can't accept that TM was in the wrong so all evidence is disregarded.

Respectively, Just asking: Do you not see it as a possibility that TM asked "why are you following me" and GZ made a negative remark back, or GZ raised his flashlight, and TM thought it was a gun, and feared for his life so he reacted by punching GZ? There were no witnesses to what happened in those few seconds, so we don't know exactly what happened that could have caused the reaction to start the fight... people can be 'instigated' to throw the first punch. Not saying that is right or that GZ instigated TM, just saying, even the evidence we have doesn't tell us the situation at the time the 'scuffle/fight' began.