George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin General discussion #2

[Zuri]

Looking at the injuries of GZ, he appears like he did take a good punch to the face. Your nose is mainly cartilage. The nasal bones are the bridge of your nose. The pics from the next day seem to demonstrate that GZ had a black eye, either from his nasal bones being fractured or a punch to the eye.

As far as the seeming lack of blood on TM chest, the heart stopped pumping. As far as I could tell from the autopsy report, the bleeding was internal, filling both lungs and pleural cavity. One would not expect a lot of external bleeding from this proximal GSW to the heart. HTH IMPO

 

[DIBSY]

then why didn't George use his MMA style on Trayvon?

He clearly was not looking for a confrontation that night. (Zimmerman)

Why use your gun when you can use MMA style as well?

I think GZ did use his MMA lessons and experience that night before he shot Martin. The other guy kept changing who was who and who did what.

I firmly believe that Martin was on his back when Zimmerman shot him and that Martin rolled over in a protective reflex and grabbed his frontal wound as he died.

 

[Zuri]

Looking at the injuries of GZ, he appears like he did take a good punch to the face. Your nose is mainly cartilage. The nasal bones are the bridge of your nose. The pics from the next day seem to demonstrate that GZ had a black eye, either from his nasal bones being fractured or a punch to the eye.

As far as the seeming lack of blood on TM chest, the heart stopped pumping. As far as I could tell from the autopsy report, the bleeding was internal, filling both lungs and pleural cavity. One would not expect a lot of external bleeding from this proximal GSW to the heart. HTH IMPO

 

[Horace Finklestein]

I think GZ was on top of TM when he shot him; he then rolled the body over to try and align the body with his story. He's changed his story several times and the actual evidence just does not match up. An unarmed, teenager was killed by a wanna-be cop that thought he had authority to boss people around that he didn't know. If you listen to the first 911 call, he already has his mind made up that TM is a , on drugs, and just suspicious...why you ask? Well, because he's walking at night in the rain.

Well, no...there were break ins, TM fit the profile of people who had been breaking into homes in the area. TM was seen attacking GZ. Isn't it important to get the whole truth here?

 

[m00c0w]

I think GZ did use his MMA lessons and experience that night before he shot Martin. The other guy kept changing who was who and who did what.

I firmly believe that Martin was on his back when Zimmerman shot him and that Martin rolled over in a protective reflex and grabbed his frontal wound as he died.

Then how did Zimmerman sustain all of his injuries, and wind up with no injuries on his hands that reflect hitting or punching someone? Why did Martin not have any trauma other than the gunshot wound if Zimmerman was on top of him, beating him?

 

[PaintingAnemone]

While there were no witnesses to the initiation of the confrontation, there were several witnesses at the end and none saw Zimmerman rearranging anything. So I'm not sure where this notion arrives from.

That brings up an interesting comment from one of the witnesses, who said that GZ was on TM's back. This suggests to me that Zimmerman was still trying to apprehend what he thought was a "(#@$& punk" and was trying to restrain what at that point was a dead body. It also suggests to me that Zimmerman may be the one who actually rolled Martin onto his stomach.

Either Martin was on top, and after being shot (which appears to have stopped his heart immediately), he fell over onto his back, which would require being rolled over by someone else; OR Zimmerman was on top, and after shooting Martin point blank in the chest, he rolled the boy over and pinned him down, perhaps in an attempt to further restrain him, not understanding that he'd killed him. This second option jibes more with GZ's vigilante attitude. However, what I don't buy is that the kid fell on top of him and instead of GZ pushing him off (like any normal person would do), he weirdly shimmied out from under the body without getting any blood on his jacket. That doesn't really fit.

"Mary Cutcher told Dateline that she and her roommate both saw Zimmerman "straddling the body, basically a foot on both sides of Trayvon's body, and his hands pressed on his back."
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/03/25/10854229-witness-zimmerman-never-tried-to-help-trayvon-martin?lite

She and her roommate say the same thing here:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2012/04/witnesses_mary_cutcher_and_selma_mora_offer_their_account_of_what_happened_the_night_trayvon_martin_died_.html

 

[Bernina]

http://gillreport.com/2012/12/video-new-bloody-photo-of-george-zimmerman-released/

Better picture of his face.

That's really strange, the faces look similar, but the one with the busted nose looks like a younger, thinner version of GZ than the one taken at the police station......

 

[carnnell]

This is the first time I have seen the head abrasions on Zimmerman's head and the one tiny scratch on his nose. This isn't "horrifically bashing someone head in" otherwise Zimmerman would have way worse injuries internally. Any scratch and/or abrasions on the head bleed a lot. It almost has the "appearance" of falling in the wet rain and skidding on the concrete. I am not claiming that is what happen. I am just saying, in my humble opinion, it could have the appearance of falling.

As always, JMHO

 

[popsicle]

I think GZ did use his MMA lessons and experience that night before he shot Martin. The other guy kept changing who was who and who did what.

I firmly believe that Martin was on his back when Zimmerman shot him and that Martin rolled over in a protective reflex and grabbed his frontal wound.

If TM's wound wasn't immediately fatal is was rapidly fatal.... I doubt he was rolling himself anywhere.

 

[iluvmua]

I think GZ did use his MMA lessons and experience that night before he shot Martin. The other guy kept changing who was who and who did what.

I firmly believe that Martin was on his back when Zimmerman shot him and that Martin rolled over in a protective reflex and grabbed his frontal wound as he died.

1. There is no evidence of this

2. This is not what the evidence suggests. TM was clearly on top of GZ when he was shot, not on his back.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I think GZ did use his MMA lessons and experience that night before he shot Martin. The other guy kept changing who was who and who did what.

I firmly believe that Martin was on his back when Zimmerman shot him and that Martin rolled over in a protective reflex and grabbed his frontal wound.

No. That does not work with the position the body was in. He was more splayed out with his hands under him. If he was clutch he would have gone fetal if he had anything left. I would be he was most likely instantly or near instantly dead.

 

[PaperDoll]

The reason why this is all happening, is because of GZ. TM was not found committing any crime, he was found walking to the store and back, unarmed and being followed by some guy who is ASSUMING he is going to commit a crime. TM runs from GZ, not towards him, but from him and what does GZ do? He follows him so what ever happens to GZ, it's because HE PUT HIMSELF IN THAT POSITION! TM was no longer a threat to GZ, why would GZ tell the 911 operator that this guy is up to no good and is coming towards me with his hands in his waist band, then TM runs from GZ.. That tells me that TM isn't a threat but maybe afraid of GZ. Just my :twocents: again.. with all my :twocents: I should be rich by now.. lol

 

[polleypockets]

TM was on top of GZ beating him. When GZ shot him holding the gun point up my guess is that TM fell straight down. and GZ crawled out.

ok - this really isn't snark, i am truly trying to understand your POV - because i look at things as what is the most likely way to happen Occam's razor - imo if you have just been attacked w/ some one sitting on top of you, beating you, there is a struggle for a gun, you shoot your assailant, he falls n top of you, wouldn't the first response be to push him off you and jump away??? rather than carefully lifting him up partially, moving yourself out from under him, then laying him straight back down so he is still lying face down????

 

[gxm]

Just wanted to point out that this is for SYG, and GZ is not claiming SYG (yet).

Here's a link to a Mother Jones article:

Many readers have asked whether, given the 911 recordings, a case against Zimmerman would be easier than most homicides in which "self-defense" is cited by a defendant. In Florida, the answer probably is no: The courts' interpretation of the stand-your-ground law has been extremely broad—so broad that, to win an acquittal, a defendant doesn't even have to prove self-defense, only argue for it, while to win a conviction the prosecution has to prove that self-defense was impossible.

Numerous cases have set the precedent in Florida, with the courts arguing that the law "does not require defendant to prove self-defense to any standard measuring assurance of truth, exigency, near certainty, or even mere probability; defendant's only burden is to offer facts from which his resort to force could have been reasonable." When a defendant claims self-defense, "the State has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self-defense." In other words the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt never shifts from the prosecution, so it's surprisingly easy to evade prosecution by claiming self-defense.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/what-happened-trayvon-martin-explained

Everything that I'm finding says that in Florida the burden of proof does not shift when a defendant claims self defense. I have yet to see one link that says otherwise. If you have a source that says the burden of proof shifts to the defendant, please post a link.

 

[Nymeria]

http://gillreport.com/2012/12/video-new-bloody-photo-of-george-zimmerman-released/

Better picture of his face.

OK that just makes it all weirder.

Those side by side pictures were taken the same night, right?

Why does his nose look so swollen getting into the car, but the photo taken at police station it looks completely different.
WTH!?

 

[m00c0w]

That brings up an interesting comment from one of the witnesses, who said that GZ was on TM's back. This suggests to me that Zimmerman was still trying to apprehend what he thought was a "(#@$& punk" and was trying to restrain what at that point was a dead body. It also suggests to me that Zimmerman may be the one who actually rolled Martin onto his stomach.

Either Martin was on top, and after being shot (which appears to have stopped his heart immediately), he fell over onto his back, which would require being rolled over by someone else; OR Zimmerman was on top, and after shooting Martin point blank in the chest, he rolled the boy over and pinned him down, perhaps in an attempt to further restrain him, not understanding that he'd killed him. This second option jibes more with GZ's vigilante attitude. However, what I don't buy is that the kid fell on top of him and instead of GZ pushing him off (like any normal person would do), he weirdly shimmied out from under the body without getting any blood on his jacket. That doesn't really fit.

"Mary Cutcher told Dateline that she and her roommate both saw Zimmerman "straddling the body, basically a foot on both sides of Trayvon's body, and his hands pressed on his back."
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/03/25/10854229-witness-zimmerman-never-tried-to-help-trayvon-martin?lite

She and her roommate say the same thing here:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2012/04/witnesses_mary_cutcher_and_selma_mora_offer_their_account_of_what_happened_the_night_trayvon_martin_died_.html

I hope she's a witness and they rip apart her testimony. I've already questioned her story when this forum was opened back in the initial months of the case. Her story is not consistent, and she has given different news shows different versions of events. In one, he was on his knees on top of Martin; in the other, he was standing over him. She also reported only hearing little scuffles, never heard screams or anything (even though there clearly were), and tried to paint a certain picture. It seemed she was either after fame, or wanted to make sure Zimmerman got what she felt he deserved. IMO

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

ok - this really isn't snark, i am truly trying to understand your POV - because i look at things as what is the most likely way to happen Occam's razor - imo if you have just been attacked w/ some one sitting on top of you, beating you, there is a struggle for a gun, you shoot your assailant, he falls n top of you, wouldn't the first response be to push him off you and jump away??? rather than carefully lifting him up partially, moving yourself out from under him, then laying him straight back down so he is still lying face down????

My guess is that he just moved out. I know for me. I could never lift DH off of me. I would have to wriggle out. I don't think he could push him off especially with TM completely limp.

 

[Hatfield]

Not if he was bleeding into the pleural cavity, which is suggested by the officer's description of his CPR attempts.

Some wounds like you described do tend to not bleed out as much as others, so I can see where if this was the case, there would be less blood than what I had expected to be present.

Someone mentioned the shirt and hoodie too could act as a buffer zone between the skin and outside and soak up some blood too, so this complicates things a lot as far as being able to tell where TM was when he was shot.

 

[polleypockets]

Not if he was bleeding into the pleural cavity, which is suggested by the officer's description of his CPR attempts.

but that would have been after he was turned on his back and cpr started, what about b4 first responders arrived and he was still face down? or especially right after he was shot and was allegedly face down on GZ?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Once the heart stops pumping the bleeding is going to stop. IT is how we knew that Travis A was shot last. No blood in the wound.