George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin General discussion #2

[Overuled]

Have someone bigger than you lay on you and just be limp and not movable.. See how you get out...

Do you suppose that if tm was on top like I believe that gz slid out from under tm because he didn't want to push the body up and disturb anything. If I was under I would have just wiggeled out from under tm.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Neither is Zimmerman's, for that matter. He's told inconsistency after inconsistency - which is probably why they're not putting him on the stand.

No. He has always told the same story..

 

[Chester_from_THM]

There were reports that Martin's hands showed evidence of hitting someone, IIRC. I don't recall if that was from the ME or from the funeral director, but it seemed to be clear that he definitely threw punches.

We saw pictures of his hands in today's testimony. From my lay-person's eyes, I saw no injuries to his hands.

The medical examiner testimony will be interesting. I have read here that there was none of GZ's DNA or blood on his fingers/hands. If the ME says so, I can't see how one can unequivocally conclude TM hit GZ.

The only evidence of that comes down to GZ himself and this other eye witness who has changed his story.

I am having a hard time seeing why one witness who changed their story is more incredible than another witness who has changed stories, or the defendant, who has changed stories.

As a juror, I would take none as credible if it comes out in testimony there they all told multiple versions of events.

 

[PaintingAnemone]

I thought at the time of the incident, George looked like a 150 lb wimp, not the beefed up guy he is now, nor the same that he was in thphotos shown in the media at the time it happened.

He was quite muscular at the time of the murder; he had been training. Now he's a bit of a blimp.

 

[m00c0w]

You don't think 5'11 and 158 lbs is skinny??
To me that is a string bean!

That's the ideal weight of someone that height. Maybe even slightly heavier than ideal weight. I'm 5'10" and at 150, I'm definitely not a "string bean".

 

[iluvmua]

My point is your stance is that GZ was in self defense mode. So that excuses him from the murder.

What I think is that TM was actually the one in self defense mode...so no, him punching GZ (if it happened...and I am not conceding it did actually) does not then excuse GZ from killing him.

Because TM was the one defending himself.

defend himself from what? Who was he defending himself from?

He could have ran back to the place he was staying in under a minute, well before GZ got off the phone.

How can you defend yourself from anyone when the guy you are beating has no wounds to his hands?

There is no evidence to suggest GZ threw any punches etc at TM.

So how would TM be defending himself from someone who didn't even have the time to react?

 

[pamelahl1]

I have had such a hard time accepting that the large flashlight of GZ had no trace evidence on it. What caused those circular red marks on GZ head?
If GZ's head was pounded on flat concrete, why is it that there are those red pattern marks on his head?
My thoughts instantly take me back in time to a point when my abusive ex had self injured in order to try to make it look like I had hurt him.

 

[polleypockets]

Here's a link to a Mother Jones article:

Many readers have asked whether, given the 911 recordings, a case against Zimmerman would be easier than most homicides in which "self-defense" is cited by a defendant. In Florida, the answer probably is no: The courts' interpretation of the stand-your-ground law has been extremely broad—so broad that, to win an acquittal, a defendant doesn't even have to prove self-defense, only argue for it, while to win a conviction the prosecution has to prove that self-defense was impossible.

Numerous cases have set the precedent in Florida, with the courts arguing that the law "does not require defendant to prove self-defense to any standard measuring assurance of truth, exigency, near certainty, or even mere probability; defendant's only burden is to offer facts from which his resort to force could have been reasonable." When a defendant claims self-defense, "the State has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self-defense." In other words the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt never shifts from the prosecution, so it's surprisingly easy to evade prosecution by claiming self-defense.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/what-happened-trayvon-martin-explained

Everything that I'm finding says that in Florida the burden of proof does not shift when a defendant claims self defense. I have yet to see one link that says otherwise. If you have a source that says the burden of proof shifts to the defendant, please post a link.

see here is my problem imo, this is from a left wing political magazine, so many facts are coming from bias sources which have been battling since day one, imo i feel that we can only look at the true evidence that is in court or discovery and read laws our selves rather than trusting any ones interrpreation of anything on this case

 

[raine1212]

http://www.firearmsid.com/a_distanceresults.htm


Intermediate Range Gunshot
An intermediate range gunshot usually will deposit a significant amount of particulate residue that is not easily seen with the eye but can be detected through a microscopic examination and through chemical testing. The results may read something like:

Exhibit 1 (shirt) was found to have a bullet entrance hole in the chest area. A deposit of gunshot residues were found around this hole that are consistent with those that would be deposited by an intermediate range gunshot.



An intermediate range gunshot, like that seen in the above image, can range from just beyond the 12-inch range out to 24 to 36 inches. This depends greatly upon the caliber, barrel length and powder type used in the ammunition.

 

[Nymeria]

You don't think 5'11 and 158 lbs is skinny??
To me that is a string bean!

Quoting myself because I looked it up and I guess he could be in the low average for his height. BMI should be 165 to 190 is what it said, so I guess 158 is not that skinny.
It just sounded skinny to me, but he was just past 16 and probably still growing (could have just had a growth spurt) so I guess it can be average.

 

[iluvmua]

Do you suppose that if tm was on top like I believe that gz slid out from under tm because he didn't want to push the body up and disturb anything. If I was under I would have just wiggeled out from under tm.

That's what GZ said he did.

It's in the police reports

 

[Beyond Belief]

I didn't miss the testimony of the girl on the phone with TM this morning, did I?

 

[Tenaciousdae]

Have someone bigger than you lay on you and just be limp and not movable.. See how you get out...

:blushing: I can imagine but I would have to speculate that while wiggling out I would scrape the back of my head on something sharp in the grass...like a sprinkler head or box...

Just my opinion....:seeya:

 

[Chester_from_THM]

Of course we know TM started the fight, he was not in GZ's sight and GZ was walking back to his vehicle. TM was clearly the aggressor, according to all the evidence. Why would GZ even bother starting a fight after he got off the phone with LE? He knew cops were on the way. The problem is, people can't accept that TM was in the wrong so all evidence is disregarded.

This is a sincere question, not trying to start a thing.

How do you know GZ was walking back to his vehicle? How do you know TM was not within GZ's sight?

 

[DIBSY]

Then how did Zimmerman sustain all of his injuries, and wind up with no injuries on his hands that reflect hitting or punching someone? Why did Martin not have any trauma other than the gunshot wound if Zimmerman was on top of him, beating him?

You may recall that TM had no traces of GZ's DNA underneath his nails and he would have blood had he inflicted those injuries. I have not heard that TM had only the one injury. But it seems GZ wanted to use his gun because after trying to use MAA to restrain and beat up his target, it was ineffective.

Now we have seen that GZ has a rather long history of alerting the police to " suspicious" black people, even one as recent as two weeks before he fatally shot TM. Often when a citizen has such a history of reporting individuals to the police, they are labelled as Drama Kings or Queens. I think in this instance GZ wanted a trophy to prove to the police officers that he wasn'
t just another guy who called wolf habitually.

 

[iluvmua]

I have had such a hard time accepting that the large flashlight of GZ had no trace evidence on it. What caused those circular red marks on GZ head?
If GZ's head was pounded on flat concrete, why is it that there are those red pattern marks on his head?
My thoughts instantly take me back in time to a point when my abusive ex had self injured in order to try to make it look like I had hurt him.

GZ used his gun, not his flashlight.

this is why it had no trace evidence on it.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

:blushing: I can imagine but I would have to speculate that while wiggling out I would scrape the back of my head on something sharp in the grass...like a sprinkler head or box...

Just my opinion....:seeya:

There was nothing there in the grass I could see and HIs wounds are not to me consistent with light scrapes. But being hit on the concrete.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

You may recall that TM had no traces of GZ's DNA underneath his nails and he would have blood had he inflicted those injuries. I have not heard that TM had only the one injury. But it seems GZ wanted to use his gun because after trying to use MAA to restrain and beat up his target, it was ineffective.

Now we have seen that GZ has a rather long history of alerting the police to " suspicious" black people, even one as recent as two weeks before he fatally shot TM. Often when a citizen has such a history of reporting individuals to the police, they are labelled as Drama Kings or Queens. I think in this instance GZ wanted a trophy to prove to the police officers that he wasn'
t just another guy who called wolf habitually.

No, He would not. HE hit his nose with something.. could have been his head for all we know but the back of GZ's head with the blood would not have touched TM

 

[Nymeria]

That's the ideal weight of someone that height. Maybe even slightly heavier than ideal weight. I'm 5'10" and at 150, I'm definitely not a "string bean".

Yes, I looked it up myself (probably as you were typing this reply!).

I just have a son who is 6'4 and built pretty solidly, so when I hear almost 6 feet and 158 lbs is rings as very thin to me. Did not mean to insult leaner folks!

 

[Zuri]

http://www.firearmsid.com/a_distanceresults.htm


Intermediate Range Gunshot
An intermediate range gunshot usually will deposit a significant amount of particulate residue that is not easily seen with the eye but can be detected through a microscopic examination and through chemical testing. The results may read something like:

Exhibit 1 (shirt) was found to have a bullet entrance hole in the chest area. A deposit of gunshot residues were found around this hole that are consistent with those that would be deposited by an intermediate range gunshot.



An intermediate range gunshot, like that seen in the above image, can range from just beyond the 12-inch range out to 24 to 36 inches. This depends greatly upon the caliber, barrel length and powder type used in the ammunition.

Thank you for posting this info. For some reason, I had pictured GZ bringing his arm up or forward. His arm was further away than I had pictured in my head. This is just such a tragedy all the way around.