George Zimmerman /Trayvon Martin General Discussion #7

[iluvmua]

If TM was not familiar with the area, a reasonable person might assume that he is lost and not looking to break in, JMO.

It's possible

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Just a question. Not being snarky. Do you think that it is ok to shoot someone who punches you in the face?


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No. However, I think it's perfectly ok if the person is on top of you, punching you, and slamming your head into concrete, which is what I believe TM did to GZ. I'm not in the camp that thinks he should have suffered more injury before defending himself.

And do you think it's ok to punch someone, get on top of them and slam their head on the concrete?

 

[Hopeful One]

I think it's because he's being asked to tell GZ's version of the events as GZ told them to him - this isn't being used as evidence of what actually happened. It's being used to determine whether GZ always told the same story to everyone consistently, which is at issue here.

Thanks!

This is why I could never be a lawyer. Even after following trials for years upon years, this stuff still confuses me. :blushing:

 

[Chris_Texas]

Kinda off topic, but when the Defense opened with their little joke...

Knock knock!

Who's there?

George Zimmerman!

...

Did anyone else instantly get a chill at the thought of Zimmerman at their door?

 

[iluvmua]

GZ's best friend wrote a book about how George was innocent etc. IIRC

 

[nnglas]

No. However, I think it's perfectly ok if the person is on top of you, punching you, and slamming your head into concrete, which is what I believe TM did to GZ. I'm not in the camp that thinks he should have suffered more injury before defending himself.

And do you think it's ok to punch someone, get on top of them and slam their head on the concrete?

Absolutely not. But I just don't believe that happened. The part about the concrete. But I do see where you are coming from. Thanks for answering.

IMO


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[NancyGracesBangs]

Tricia, what I don't understand here, is why that evidence of his past can't be used when the jury is considering whether it's feasible that Trayvon was the attacker, or whether it would be completely unlikely that he would attack first.

For example, a history of aggressing against other people would be helpful to know about, or a history of in fact running for cover and avoiding conflict would be very helpful.

In my opinion, his past isn't all that relevant in clarifying why GZ found him suspicious - but it is VERY helpful in judging whether it's likely that GZ is telling the truth, that Trayvon attacked him.

State of mind of GZ is of issue and since GZ didn't know TM or anything that TM has done or not done in the past, it isn't relevant to GZ's state of mind since he didn't know who TM is nor could he then know whether TM had a history of fighting or passivity, etc.

Now if he got into a fight with Mike Tyson.....

Door left open for it to be brought up IF prosecution delves into GZ's past though so prosecution has to be careful with how they talk about GZ if they don't want this door opened. I believe also (IIRC) that if TM's character is brought up in a stellar light, the defense may be allowed to rebut that with what they know, etc.

 

[tsitra01]

Well there's more to it than that though. TM attacked GZ imo. He didn't just see TM and decide to start shooting.

That is according to GZ STORY. TM had no marks at all on his hands. I would expect some evidence of the punching and smothering that GZ claimed....... And being able to scream as GZ claim HE was doing while being smothered by TM without having his screams muffled was quite interesting and laughable if not for the tragic death of TM from this wanna be cop.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Kinda off topic, but when the Defense opened with their little joke...

Knock knock!

Who's there?

George Zimmerman!

...

Did anyone else instantly get a chill at the thought of Zimmerman at their door?

No. Not at all.

 

[Lovelymountains]

But emotions don't prove a case. They are just heart pains. I think we all have them for TM and his family.
But we need facts that prove someone has committed MURDER. Not a killed someone, But committed murder to send them to jail. I have seen too many innocents go to prison and have their life ruined. I think we need to be really careful.

This has to be about fact. Not the emotion. OMO

I bow to your experience about innocents being sent to prison. I, personally, have never seen any except an occasional newspaper article about a person proven innocent who has been released. IMO that doesn't happen very often and I have not seen too many innocents sent to prison. But then, I've never seen anyone shot, either. Perhaps my life is too sheltered. IMO

 

[missmazzy]

Wait - what book is this?

Check Amazon. There are a few.

 

[Lovelymountains]

Hello all. Happy to be here.
Didn't BDLR just open the door with ( paraphrase ) "no evidence that TM was up to no good"? Isn't TM's past evidence?

IMO I don't think so because they are speaking specifically about that night, during which GZ had no way to know about TM's past.

 

[JeannaT]

State of mind of GZ is of issue and since GZ didn't know TM or anything that TM has done or not done in the past, it isn't relevant to GZ's state of mind since he didn't know who TM is nor could he then know whether TM had a history of fighting or passivity, etc.

Now if he got into a fight with Mike Tyson.....

Yes, GZ's state of mind is at issue.

Also at issue here, and actually pivotal to the case, is whether GZ is telling the truth that Trayvon attacked him first. I think Trayvon's past, whatever it is, would be helpful in making that determination. In general, his propensity to either fight or behave peaceably when confronted is completely central to this case.

 

[Nezumi]

In my opinion LE or anyone in an authoratative role can get permission from a kid (especially one who is doing nothing wrong) fairly easy. Sadly, in these times we're in, that's becoming true for adults as well. The Fourth Amendment's protection is disappearing fast as people sort themselves into an "us" vs "them" mentality. And this case is a good example of this.

GZ, and many others living in these gated communities, believe that everone locked inside with them are good; outsiders who get into their little compounds MUST be the cause of whatever bad things happen. In reality these gated-residents have just as much domestic violence, child abuse, and overall fraudulent activity going on within the confines of their homes as do the general population.

George's address on his driver's license did not match up with where he lived so how long did he live there? The law gives limited time to get that change made in the system. An oversight or an attempt to hide his whereabouts? George mosies along looking into his neighbors' windows; he decides whose garage door is left open when no one is home; he knows who keeps their doors locked and who doesn't. A simple invasion of privacy or a peeping Tom? And George goes grocery shopping with a fully loaded 9mm pistol in an unsecured holster with a round in the chamber and the safety off. Just going out for some milk and eggs or a tragedy waiting to happen?

Just thinking out loud to myself and anybody else who can hear me.

By its nature, the Neighborhood Watch program involves the consent and cooperation of the residents who participate. In this case, this neighborhood seemed to be very cohesive in their support of a NWP given the crime they'd been subjected to. To suggest that GZ was out of line by looking out for his neighbors, IMO, is ridiculous.

 

[William N]

IMO GZ was not ambushed. I do not think that a person who just shot an unarmed individual will necessarilly be truthful. His interest will be in protecting himself, not seeing that the dead person receives justice. The only indication of "Ambush" is what Zimmerman says. I discount most of his version of events. He has no incentive to be truthful. IMO

As for TM, IMO being followed by a stranger on a dark rainy night is reason enough to be frightened. I believe the incident was caused by GZ being determined to not let this one, "Get away." IMO TM tried to get away and that caused his murder.

IMO if TM had really tried to "get away" by running he would have reached safely the apartment he started from. As I have previously asked, why couldn't a high school football player easily outrun GZ?

 

[nnglas]

Did GZ say TM was looking in windows on the NEN call? I don't remember that.


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[iluvmua]

Yes, GZ's state of mind is at issue.

Also at issue here, and actually pivotal to the case, is whether GZ is telling the truth that Trayvon attacked him first. I think Trayvon's past, whatever it is, would be helpful in making that determination. In general, his propensity to either fight or behave peaceably when confronted is completely central to this case.

which is why i want the state to bring up gz's criminal record.

 

[barrysgirl]

I didn't hear the doctored tapes. Why would I listen to them? You just said that they were doctored.

Again, what does that have to do with anything I have said about GZ or his actions that night ?


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Noone knew they were doctored except the media owned by NBC. Everytiume you heard the 911 call in the beginning you heard the doctored version. It did not come out until later, when the defense had the 911 call and then heard the one on TV that they realized what had happened.

I am answering the part of your posts that insist you haven't heard the doctored version. The truth, indisputable truth, is we all did, we just didn't know it at first.

to answer what that has to do with anything is that, IMO, the evidence pointed to self defense as the police were starting to consider. The media gets involved, the chief is resigned, the goverment takes over and comes up with second degree murder. What that has to do with that night is that I believe, from the evidence that GZ was defending himself as did many police who are trained to make those decisions. The media gets involved, they all get resigned, demoted and the government takes over. That is when the train started rolling, IMO, right over george.

 

[Jane Jetson]

Where is the evidence he was looking in windows? Did GZ say this?

My mistake: GZ says TM was standing in the front yard (which is about the size of a postage stamp) of the house, "looking leisurely at the house." I don't know how you could avoid looking in the windows, if you were facing the house in a yard that size.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX1sxARNq_c"]Raw Video: George Zimmerman reenacts incident for Sanford Police - YouTube[/ame] (at around 2:37 mark).

Love your sig, btw.

 

[Tricia]

Tricia, what I don't understand here, is why that evidence of his past can't be used when the jury is considering whether it's feasible that Trayvon was the attacker, or whether it would be completely unlikely that he would attack first.

For example, a history of aggressing against other people would be helpful to know about, or a history of in fact running for cover and avoiding conflict would be very helpful.

In my opinion, his past isn't all that relevant in clarifying why GZ found him suspicious - but it is VERY helpful in judging whether it's likely that GZ is telling the truth, that Trayvon attacked him.

The judge made that ruling based on the fact that George did not know any of this when he shot Trayvon.

It's not me who made that decision. It was the judge.

I don't know why. We need a legal brain to tell us more.