Gerald R. McMenamin on Donald Foster pg 84-88

  • #101
They might at that. I don't deny that possibility. But, and this is the important part, at least they'll do it honestly.

And if they conclude RDI? I only ask out of curiosity; not much can be done about it at this point.

I guess it would be nice for them to post evidence and reasons. I personally would like to see if they rule out Amy's rapist, how they do so (i.e they did recover DNA and it was not a match)
I argue they must do so using physical evidence recovered from the scene (i.e fiber, DNA) since he is one counter-example, given time (9 months) and proximity (less than 2 miles away -- both West Dance studio), material relevant, to RDI claim that "pedophile rapists do not enter sleeping parents home and assault children where their cries may bring the parents in" (which is entirely logical and reasonable but then criminals aren't necessarily logical and reasonable.)


In all seriousness, voynich, it wouldn't bother me so much if they had immediately tried again with someone else. You have to wonder why they didn't. Could it be that they were afraid that it would come out the same way?

they as in R's or they as in BPD? if by they you mean the R's then why didn't they do so, since Foster's conclusions (RDI) is contrary to their claims.

Darth Gerald the Wise seems "confident" in both his critique of Donald "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" and his own conclusion (which he states as a statistic p-value)

the null hypothesis Darth Gerald states is that the sample variance of PR's provided exemplars are within range (using 18-20 variables like sentence length, types of words use, frequency of words, phrases, misspellings etc.) of the RN. He finds the range to differ enough to reject the null hypothesis

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Null_hypothesis[/ame]
In statistical hypothesis testing, the null hypothesis (H0) formally describes some aspect of the statistical behaviour of a set of data; this description is treated as valid unless the actual behaviour of the data contradicts this assumption. Thus, the null hypothesis is contrasted against another hypothesis. Statistical hypothesis testing is used to make a decision about whether the data contradicts the null hypothesis: this is called significance testing. A null hypothesis is never proven by such methods, as the absence of evidence against the null hypothesis does not establish it. In other words, one may either reject, or not reject the null hypothesis; one cannot accept it. Failing to reject it gives no strong reason to change decisions predicated on its truth, but it also allows for the possibility of obtaining further data and then re-examining the same hypothesis.

For example, imagine flipping a coin three times, for three heads; and then forming the opinion that we have used a two-headed trick coin. Clearly this opinion is based on the premise that such a sequence is unlikely to have arisen using a normal coin. In fact, such sequences (three consecutive heads or three consecutive tails) occur a quarter of the time on average when using normal unbiased coins. Therefore the opinion that coin is two-headed has little support. Formally, the hypothesis to be tested in this example is "this is a two-headed coin". One tests it by assessing whether the data contradict the null hypothesis that "this is a normal, unbiased coin". Since the observed data arise reasonably often by chance under the null hypothesis, we cannot reject the null hypothesis as an explanation for the data, and we conclude that we cannot assert our hypothesis on the basis of the observed sequence.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-value

In statistical hypothesis testing, the p-value is the probability of obtaining a result at least as extreme as the one that was actually observed, assuming that the null hypothesis is true. The fact that p-values are based on this assumption is crucial to their correct interpretation.

The lower the p-value, the less likely the result, assuming the null hypothesis, so the more "significant" the result, in the sense of statistical significance – one often uses p-values of 0.05 or 0.01, corresponding to a 5% chance or 1% of an outcome that extreme, given the null hypothesis. However, the idea of more or less significance is here only being used for illustrative purposes. The result of a test of significance is either "statistically significant" or "not statistically significant"; there are no shades of gray.

More technically, a p-value of an experiment is a random variable defined over the sample space of the experiment such that its distribution under the null hypothesis is uniform on the interval [0,1]. Many p-values can be defined for the same experiment.

Coin flipping example

For example, an experiment is performed to determine whether a coin flip is fair (50% chance of landing heads or tails) or unfairly biased, either toward heads (> 50% chance of landing heads) or toward tails (< 50% chance of landing heads). (A bent coin produces biased results.)

Suppose that the experimental results show the coin turning up heads 14 times out of 20 total flips. The p-value of this result would be the chance of a fair coin landing on heads at least 14 times out of 20 flips. The probability that 20 flips of a fair coin would result in 14 or more heads is 0.0577. Thus, the p-value for the coin turning up heads 14 times out of 20 total flips is 0.0577.

[edit] Interpretation

Generally, one rejects the null hypothesis if the p-value is smaller than or equal to the significance level,[1] often represented by the Greek letter &#945; (alpha). If the level is 0.05, then results that are only 5% likely or less are deemed extraordinary, given that the null hypothesis is true.

In the above example we have:

* null hypothesis (H0): fair coin;
* observation (O): 14 heads out of 20 flips; and
* probability (p-value) of observation (O) given H0: P(O | H0) = 0.0577 × 2 (two-tailed) = 0.1154 (percentage expressed as 11.54%).

The calculated p-value exceeds 0.05, so the observation is consistent with the null hypothesis &#8212; that the observed result of 14 heads out of 20 flips can be ascribed to chance alone &#8212; as it falls within the range of what would happen 95% of the time were this in fact the case. In our example, we fail to reject the null hypothesis at the 5% level. Although the coin did not fall evenly, the deviation from expected outcome is just small enough to be reported as being "not statistically significant at the 5% level".

However, had a single extra head been obtained, the resulting p-value (two-tailed) would be 0.0414 (4.14%). This time the null hypothesis - that the observed result of 15 heads out of 20 flips can be ascribed to chance alone - is rejected. Such a finding would be described as being "statistically significant at the 5% level".

Critics of p-values point out that the criterion used to decide "statistical significance" is based on the somewhat arbitrary choice of level (often set at 0.05). It is necessary to use a reasonable null hypothesis to assess the result fairly. The choice of null hypothesis entails assumptions.

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_hypothesis_testing[/ame]

A statistical hypothesis test is a method of making statistical decisions using experimental data. It is sometimes called confirmatory data analysis, in contrast to exploratory data analysis. In frequency probability, these decisions are almost always made using null-hypothesis tests; that is, ones that answer the question Assuming that the null hypothesis is true, what is the probability of observing a value for the test statistic that is at least as extreme as the value that was actually observed?[1] One use of hypothesis testing is deciding whether experimental results contain enough information to cast doubt on conventional wisdom.

Statistical hypothesis testing is a key technique of frequentist statistical inference, and is widely used, but also much criticized. The main alternative to statistical hypothesis testing is Bayesian inference.

The critical region of a hypothesis test is the set of all outcomes which, if they occur, cause the null hypothesis to be rejected in favor of the alternative hypothesis. The critical region is usually denoted by C.
 
  • #102
Very informative read.
 
  • #103
I guess it would be nice for them to post evidence and reasons. I personally would like to see if they rule out Amy's rapist, how they do so (i.e they did recover DNA and it was not a match)
I argue they must do so using physical evidence recovered from the scene (i.e fiber, DNA) since he is one counter-example, given time (9 months) and proximity (less than 2 miles away -- both West Dance studio), material relevant, to RDI claim that "pedophile rapists do not enter sleeping parents home and assault children where their cries may bring the parents in"

Well said.

(which is entirely logical and reasonable but then criminals aren't necessarily logical and reasonable.)

Well, that's a door that swings both ways, as I've often tried to point out.

they as in R's or they as in BPD?

They as in the DA;s office.

Darth Gerald the Wise seems "confident" in both his critique of Donald "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" and his own conclusion (which he states as a statistic p-value)

I have no doubt that he is. The problem as I see it is that there's a lot of self-promotion in these esoteric fields. Everyone seeks to portray their "way" as the only way. And that can lead to close-mindedness.

the null hypothesis Darth Gerald states is that the sample variance of PR's provided exemplars are within range (using 18-20 variables like sentence length, types of words use, frequency of words, phrases, misspellings etc.) of the RN. He finds the range to differ enough to reject the null hypothesis

The information you post is very enlightening, but it does present its share of problems. It doesn't seem to allow for many human factors. As a layman who didn't even know there was such a thing as linguistic analysis before this case (as I imagine most people didn't) I find it odd that someone would denounce (maybe too strong a word) psycholinguistics when, just by nature of the work, you HAVE to get inside the writer's head. If you take a mechanical view, you could end up hurting yourself.

I guess what I'm saying is that neither "pure" approach seems to be up to the task at hand and that maybe, just maybe, what is needed is a combination of the best techniques of both.

On a different note: voynich, there used to be a site where you could view side-by-side comparisons of PR's writing with the RN writing. That site is gone now, as is a book where they were published because they were obtained without the analyst's consent and a lawsuit was filed. RiverRat still has one example. And I have an early edition of that book. I realize that it doesn't make much sense to bring it up now, but it's just that I think it's very unfortunate that you cannot view them yourself, because they were startling to say the very least!
 
  • #104
  • #105
link
http://books.google.com/books?id=oF...sZHXCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7

you can find Forensic linguistics By Gerald R. McMenamin, Dongdoo Choi

on google books,

page 85-88

since it's pdf I can't cut and paste but quotes include

"[Foster] presenting no clear methodology" p87

"a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing....Donald Foster's academic preparation is literature " p85

he also critiques psycho-linguistics p84


"this kind of psycholinguistics is not forensic linguistics"

Dave, you're coming with me. I'll not leave you behind. I got to save you.

"you already have, voynich" "you were right about me. tell your sister, you were right"

Great book, and its not just linguistics but handwriting and stylistics. Its far and away the most objective display on either side of the fence of PR vs RN author.

RDI's best handwriting or linguistics can't hold a candle to it. The emphasis is not so much the match between PR and the RN author, but the degree of difficulty for anyone other than the RN author to reproduce the RN. As the RN gets longer, more variations of spelling, more vocabulary, more style the degree of difficulty goes up.
 
  • #106
  • #107
  • #108
So, has anyone inter-library loaned (or bought) this book

Forensic linguistics By Gerald R. McMenamin, Dongdoo Choi

and read the relevant sections?
 
  • #109
Well said.



Well, that's a door that swings both ways, as I've often tried to point out.



They as in the DA;s office.



I have no doubt that he is. The problem as I see it is that there's a lot of self-promotion in these esoteric fields. Everyone seeks to portray their "way" as the only way. And that can lead to close-mindedness.



The information you post is very enlightening, but it does present its share of problems. It doesn't seem to allow for many human factors. As a layman who didn't even know there was such a thing as linguistic analysis before this case (as I imagine most people didn't) I find it odd that someone would denounce (maybe too strong a word) psycholinguistics when, just by nature of the work, you HAVE to get inside the writer's head. If you take a mechanical view, you could end up hurting yourself.

I guess what I'm saying is that neither "pure" approach seems to be up to the task at hand and that maybe, just maybe, what is needed is a combination of the best techniques of both.

On a different note: voynich, there used to be a site where you could view side-by-side comparisons of PR's writing with the RN writing. That site is gone now, as is a book where they were published because they were obtained without the analyst's consent and a lawsuit was filed. RiverRat still has one example. And I have an early edition of that book. I realize that it doesn't make much sense to bring it up now, but it's just that I think it's very unfortunate that you cannot view them yourself, because they were startling to say the very least!

The problem I have with psycho-linguistic profile is that if PR did NOT write the RN, any psychological profile of the RN revealing a womany dying of ovarian cancer is suspect.
 
  • #110
The problem I have with psycho-linguistic profile is that if PR did NOT write the RN, any psychological profile of the RN revealing a woman dying of ovarian cancer is suspect.

It's kind of hard for me to argue that one, voynich. Because I can't make head nor tail of it!
 
  • #111
It's kind of hard for me to argue that one, voynich. Because I can't make head nor tail of it!

if other forensic linguists substantiate McM's results, that PR & JR did NOT write the RN, do you think RDI is still viable?
 
  • #112
if other forensic linguists substantiate McM's results, that PR & JR did NOT write the RN, do you think RDI is still viable?

As a rule, I don't make predictions about the future. I know that's probably not the answer you wanted, but it's the only one I can give you.
 
  • #113
The problem I have with psycho-linguistic profile is that if PR did NOT write the RN, any psychological profile of the RN revealing a womany dying of ovarian cancer is suspect.

I think I understand what you mean. Its like the handwriting examiner that claimed with '99.9% certainty' that JMK wrote the note.

There comes a time when the desire for notariety overtakes actual validity. In the case of subjective analysis its hard to tell one from the other at the time. It becomes a lot easier the morning after.
 
  • #114
As a rule, I don't make predictions about the future. I know that's probably not the answer you wanted, but it's the only one I can give you.

Doesn't the CASKU profile make use of "psycho-"profile of the RN? Does the CASKU report consider the background probability of an IDI given ARDI?
 
  • #115
Doesn't the CASKU profile make use of "psycho-"profile of the RN?

Among many other things. I would remind you that they had and have far more criminal investigation experience than Foster did.

Does the CASKU report consider the background probability of an IDI given ARDI?

Well, I know they considered an IDI, both from ransom kidnapping and pedophile perspectives. I guess my best advice would be to go through what they said, as it was stated in ST's book and PMPT, because I honestly think you've got the wrong idea about them. ST, pages 241-244, and PMPT, pages 306-308 contain the pertinent info. There are also interviews with Roger DePue, Clint Van Zandt, Gregg McCrary, Ron Walker and Robert Ressler.

As for ARDI, I sincerely doubt it, because (if I have the timeline right) when the Quantico meeting happened (and it's the Quantico meeting I refer to when I speak of CASKU), Amy hadn't been attacked yet. But even then, they do admit that while it might be possible for someone to break into the house and kill someone without letting the other inhabitants know, once the victim had been killed, there would be no reason not to get out immediately.
 
  • #116
I just can't bring myself to read anything written by someone named Dongdoo Choi.
 
  • #117
Among many other things. I would remind you that they had and have far more criminal investigation experience than Foster did.



Well, I know they considered an IDI, both from ransom kidnapping and pedophile perspectives. I guess my best advice would be to go through what they said, as it was stated in ST's book and PMPT, because I honestly think you've got the wrong idea about them. ST, pages 241-244, and PMPT, pages 306-308 contain the pertinent info. There are also interviews with Roger DePue, Clint Van Zandt, Gregg McCrary, Ron Walker and Robert Ressler.

As for ARDI, I sincerely doubt it, because (if I have the timeline right) when the Quantico meeting happened (and it's the Quantico meeting I refer to when I speak of CASKU), Amy hadn't been attacked yet. But even then, they do admit that while it might be possible for someone to break into the house and kill someone without letting the other inhabitants know, once the victim had been killed, there would be no reason not to get out immediately.


I read it in PMPT, but my point is that given ARDI, the background probability that an intruder would enter the premises while parents are still present, and commit a sexual assault is much higher (esp if the DNA or fiber matches) and needs to be taken into account in any analysis.

It's not enough to admit this possibility, but the background possibility given this is what happened to another person, both West Dance, living 2 miles away and 9 months later.

-- AR did not "neutralize" Amy's mother and there is no reason not to, nor to extract Amy where her cries may be heard (which is exactly what happened) or even attempt a stun gun. He took the risk Amy's mother may have had a can of mace or even a gun or baseball bat or stun gun.

I have no idea what sort of logic was going on in his mind.
 
  • #118
[/COLOR]
I read it in PMPT,

Excellent.

but my point is that given ARDI, the background probability that an intruder would enter the premises while parents are still present, and commit a sexual assault is much higher (esp if the DNA or fiber matches) and needs to be taken into account in any analysis.

Maybe so. But I'm of the mind that if there WERE any connection, we'd have heard about it by now.

It's not enough to admit this possibility, but the background possibility given this is what happened to another person, both West Dance, living 2 miles away and 9 months later.

-- AR did not "neutralize" Amy's mother and there is no reason not to, nor to extract Amy where her cries may be heard (which is exactly what happened) or even attempt a stun gun. He took the risk Amy's mother may have had a can of mace or even a gun or baseball bat or stun gun.

I guess you'd have to take it up with them. My feeling is that to compare the two leaves out too many important aspects.

I have no idea what sort of logic was going on in his mind.

Now isn't it odd that when I say something like that, it's written off as "wildcard" or some other damn thing?
 
  • #119
Excellent.



Maybe so. But I'm of the mind that if there WERE any connection, we'd have heard about it by now.

I guess you'd have to take it up with them. My feeling is that to compare the two leaves out too many important aspects.

Now isn't it odd that when I say something like that, it's written off as "wildcard" or some other damn thing?

Well it's called 48 Hours. Amy's dad saw a connection and stated LE wasn't interested. Maybe it's up to amateur websleuths to push for this connection.

In my mind,

CASKU + Donald Foster + fiber evidence = Yoda & Jedi counsel "shadow of greed leads to the dark side. miss them do not when they transform to the Force"

McM's linguistic analysis + touch DNA + Amy's rape 9 months later = He could even save those he cared about from dying. Would it be possible to learn this power? Not from a Jedi.
 
  • #120
Well it's called 48 Hours. Amy's dad saw a connection and stated LE wasn't interested.

I know what he stated. If you ask me, at best, his imagination ran away with him. At worst, he was trying to get famous by riding the coattails of a well-known case. Which, in my opinion, kind of makes what happened to Amy worse.

Maybe it's up to amateur websleuths to push for this connection.

That might be the only way. (You can interpret that statement any way you please.)

In my mind, CASKU + Donald Foster + fiber evidence = Yoda & Jedi counsel "shadow of greed leads to the dark side. miss them do not when they transform to the Force"

McM's linguistic analysis + touch DNA + Amy's rape 9 months later = He could even save those he cared about from dying. Would it be possible to learn this power? Not from a Jedi.

Come again, good buddy?
 

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
129
Guests online
2,502
Total visitors
2,631

Forum statistics

Threads
632,508
Messages
18,627,782
Members
243,174
Latest member
daydoo93
Back
Top