Germany Germany - Frankfurt, WhtFem 301UFDEU, 15-16, in Main River, Jul'01

[theshadow45]

Main River Jane Doe has been unidentified for 22 years today.

 

[branmuffin]

I wish someone who is fluent in German would update the DoeNetwork in regards to the deceased's teeth. They continue to say she was completely edentulous when she had all her teeth except wisdom teeth. So of course, Wikipedia continues the mistake.

There are a lot of cultures where women pierce their noses as well as modern day girls who just like the look. In some cultures the piercing of the left or right nostril signifies a married woman.
Urdu speaking people can come from places besides Asia. During the era when Uganda and Tanzania were kicking Muslims out of the country, these Urdu speaking refugees ended up in many countries as well, including Germany.

I believe the German police are on the right track when they consider this poor unfortunate girl who lived a life of unspeakable horror was treated maliciously by a female as well as males in a household where she was a prisoner.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

I guess since she was submerged in water, they couldn't get any DNA from the belt, inside the knots maybe? I hope they have tried with the absolute latest technology more recently.

 

[Susikatze]

I guess since she was submerged in water, they couldn't get any DNA from the belt, inside the knots maybe? I hope they have tried with the absolute latest technology more recently.

Even if they have DNA of her or the perpetrator/s, it would bw hard to identify her. If she was indeed Pakistani, Bangladeshi or Afghan, those groups are hardly represented in any DNA database. In addition, certain ethnic subgroups (e.g. Pashtun clans) are subject to extreme endogamy. And she may have been undocumented by immigration. And depending where she was born, she may not have been registered with local authorities. I can also imagine the cooperation between German and local police would not work well and many of those areas she may havr been from are war torn or deeply rooted in poverty and tribal stuctures and laws unknown and inaccessible to Westerners.

Unless some witness comes stepping forward, there is no chance she will ever get justice and her name.

I am calling her "Noor" for now because she should shine and sparkle on.

 

[Susikatze]

I wish someone who is fluent in German would update the DoeNetwork in regards to the deceased's teeth. They continue to say she was completely edentulous when she had all her teeth except wisdom teeth. So of course, Wikipedia continues the mistake.

There are a lot of cultures where women pierce their noses as well as modern day girls who just like the look. In some cultures the piercing of the left or right nostril signifies a married woman.
Urdu speaking people can come from places besides Asia. During the era when Uganda and Tanzania were kicking Muslims out of the country, these Urdu speaking refugees ended up in many countries as well, including Germany.

I believe the German police are on the right track when they consider this poor unfortunate girl who lived a life of unspeakable horror was treated maliciously by a female as well as males in a household where she was a prisoner.

I am a native German speaker. HOw do you update Doenet?

 

[phantomstrider]

Even if they have DNA of her or the perpetrator/s, it would bw hard to identify her. If she was indeed Pakistani, Bangladeshi or Afghan, those groups are hardly represented in any DNA database. In addition, certain ethnic subgroups (e.g. Pashtun clans) are subject to extreme endogamy. And she may have been undocumented by immigration. And depending where she was born, she may not have been registered with local authorities. I can also imagine the cooperation between German and local police would not work well and many of those areas she may havr been from are war torn or deeply rooted in poverty and tribal stuctures and laws unknown and inaccessible to Westerners.

Unless some witness comes stepping forward, there is no chance she will ever get justice and her name.

I am calling her "Noor" for now because she should shine and sparkle on.

I would never say never. With how much genetic genealogy has helped identify many John and Jane does she may get her name back in the future.

 

[Susikatze]

I would never say never. With how much genetic genealogy has helped identify many John and Jane does she may get her name back in the future.

True. With globalization, underrepresented ethnic groups may in the future get more DNA into the databases. But it may take a long time
Plus, right now, EU laws forbid genetic genealogy. It may change hopefully in the future but right now, it is not allowed.

 

[branmuffin]

I am a native German speaker. HOw do you update Doenet?

I don't know but each case number appears to have a contact number attached to it. The problem is that both phone numbers are in Germany so if Germany provided the information I wonder why they haven't checked that the English translation isn't accurate. And it's not likely we could change the Wiki page until the Doenetwork page has been corrected. If it does get corrected I think it should be identified as a correction to fix a translation error otherwise most people won't pay attention to the change. There is no email number and to be perfectly frank I don't know why someone in Germany hasn't twigged onto the fact the translation is really off. Already two people on WS have provided a correction without relying on Google Translate.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

Even if they have DNA of her or the perpetrator/s, it would be hard to identify her.

I know. However I have a vague hope that if the DNA of the perpetrator were at least in a database (best would be Interpol, I think, but I'm dreaming) and they were ever arrested for another violent crime, they could finally be identified. Or if an eyewitness came forward, it would help authorities build their case.

I do realize the chance they obtain(ed) DNA may be impossible. But hope is what we've got in this case.

 

[Penny68]

Death alone is of course bad enough, but the suffering this young girl suffered prior, she maybe hoped for death to end the horror she had been put through.

My heart goes out to her as no life as such did she have other than the beatings.

May she Rest in Peace. xx

 

[Susikatze]

I know. However I have a vague hope that if the DNA of the perpetrator were at least in a database (best would be Interpol, I think, but I'm dreaming) and they were ever arrested for another violent crime, they could finally be identified. Or if an eyewitness came forward, it would help authorities build their case.

I do realize the chance they obtain(ed) DNA may be impossible. But hope is what we've got in this case.

Unlikely if this is a case of domestic violence within an insular community. In addition, Germany does not take DNA samples of every criminal but only for very selected cases (e.g. serial killers or serial rapists) on a very limited basis.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

Germany does not take DNA samples of every criminal but only for very selected cases (e.g. serial killers or serial rapists) on a very limited basis.

Oh, I assumed not every criminal but also would have assumed anyone convicted of rape or any sex crime, violent assault, attempted murder, murder, etc. would have DNA in the database. Too bad, IMO.

 

[Susikatze]

Oh, I assumed not every criminal but also would have assumed anyone convicted of rape or any sex crime, violent assault, attempted murder, murder, etc. would have DNA in the database. Too bad, IMO.

DNA is protected under personality rights law, in order to be able to take and analyze it, the person has to agree (i know, absurd!) to it. LE in Germany can only take it if the perp agrees or in very extreme cases that override the law and justify tampering with personality rights.

I hope that in the future the laws will change. But right now it does not look like.

 

[Hausos]

This poor girl is clearly a victim of an honor killing.

Nalas, especially those with tassels as shown in the victim’s case, are most commonly found in Pakistan and northern India. Could also be Afghanistan, and Germany is known for having a sizable Afghan community. She’d likely be Pashtun.

Oh and just a side note and probably irrelevant but blankets or sheets in leopard design are commonly seen in the homes of immigrant families.

Getting a nose piercing at such a young age is common in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Northern India as well.

There was a head scarf, so that indicates she’s less likely to be from Northern India. I strongly suspect she has Pakistani origins, either Pashtun or Punjabi.
Frankfurt is also a very common city for Pakistani-origin people to reside in Germany.

I think if her DNA is looked at through genetic databases, my inferences will match up.

Pakistanis in Germany - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Cotton Thread Light Green Paranda

Fagulal And Sons - Offering Cotton Thread Light Green Paranda, Paranda at Rs 70/piece in Varanasi, Uttar Pradesh. Get contact number of verified dealers of Ladies Paranda | ID: 2852004193762

m.indiamart.com

Reviving the Azarband: How a group of women are rallying to save Punjab's forgotten craft of woven drawstrings

The art of making ‘azarband’, or elaborately woven nalas or drawstrings, was slowly fading out, until recently. A group of dedicated women are trying to revive the lost craft, which used to be an integral part of every Punjabi household in the past, with Project Nala Wali.

www.google.com

Nala/ Paranda/ Drawstrings and Tassels of Punjab – Asia InCH – Encyclopedia of Intangible Cultural Heritage

asiainch.org

 

[Hausos]

Okay, so I looked at the post mortem pictures. Judging by her facial features, skin color, shape of face, and eyebrow/hair thickness, she’s more likely to be Afghan Pashtun or Pakistani Pashtun. Punjabis generally have more narrow faces, darker or more wheatish skin, and less spaced out/less wide-set eyes. They also tend to have hairier eyebrows, darker, thicker hair, etc.

While it’s not 100% impossible, I find it less likely for her to be a servant who immigrated to Germany considering it’s extremely rare (basically not heard of) in Afghan and Pakistani culture to send a daughter abroad alone to work.

Another theory is child bride which could be possible as it’s extremely common in the above mentioned cultures but if she was a child bride then certainly her family somewhere must be looking for her/concerned about her around the time this crime occurred?

This is why I think the most probable culprits are her own family, hence why no one cared to look for her. Honor killing is the most likely theory. People from those communities tend to be incredibly tight knit and hush hush so even if anyone knew they’d never reveal it, (even acquaintances, friends, etc…). It’s socially acceptable to perform honor killings in those parts of the world.

 

[FromGermany1]

*sigh*
Repeating @Gottlieb from post #32 and #36:

""lückenloses Gebiss ohne Weisheitszähne..." means none of her teeth were missing, except the wisdom teeth. She had wether dental nor orthodontical work done. She had no dentures, but a full set of own teeth.

The thing weighing her down was a parasol stand ("Sonnenschirmständer"), not an umbrella.

Her sexual status ("sie war defloriert") means that her hymen was not intact anymore. Not more, not less.

Not meant to fuss, but these details have clearly lost (or transformed) in translation."

(...)

"It's a translation mistake - and a big one at that. Gebiss means both dentures and set of teeth, depending on the context. If you read the German text, there is absolutely no way to misunderstand it. It's crystal clear.

It seems Doe Network relied quite heavily on Google Translate, which in this case is rather unfortunate.

Just to clarify: this poor girl still had all of her teeth, except wisdom teeth, which probably did not yet break when she died at the age of 15. She did not have dentures. At no point of her life did she receive dental care. All the teeth in her mouth were her own."

Add to it as an error: The brown leopard sheet wasn't a sheet (Bettlaken) but a duvet cover (Bettbezug= Bezug für Decke oder Kissen).
.... if it does matter one day.

 

[theshadow45]

Main River Jane Doe has been unidentified for 23 years today.

 

[FromGermany1]

Just one thought, I have today:
Maybe, this young girl was known to people, secretly wearing a strong make-up, maybe even a wig, when she was outside her home. She wouldn't be recognizable now without these things, I believe. With make-up (and a wig?) she would have looked older than her true age and of course very different anyway.

 

[Artemur]

She was included in Operation Identify Me's second phase on late 2024. Operation Identify Me was launched on 10 May 2023 by Interpol to solve cold cases across Western Europe to identify 22 unidentified women who were found deceased in the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany between 1976 and 2019.

DE08 – The girl in the River Main

Found wrapped in a bundle, in the River Main in Frankfurt, Germany.

www.interpol.int

 

[Susikatze]

Okay, so I looked at the post mortem pictures. Judging by her facial features, skin color, shape of face, and eyebrow/hair thickness, she’s more likely to be Afghan Pashtun or Pakistani Pashtun. Punjabis generally have more narrow faces, darker or more wheatish skin, and less spaced out/less wide-set eyes. They also tend to have hairier eyebrows, darker, thicker hair, etc.

While it’s not 100% impossible, I find it less likely for her to be a servant who immigrated to Germany considering it’s extremely rare (basically not heard of) in Afghan and Pakistani culture to send a daughter abroad alone to work.

Another theory is child bride which could be possible as it’s extremely common in the above mentioned cultures but if she was a child bride then certainly her family somewhere must be looking for her/concerned about her around the time this crime occurred?

This is why I think the most probable culprits are her own family, hence why no one cared to look for her. Honor killing is the most likely theory. People from those communities tend to be incredibly tight knit and hush hush so even if anyone knew they’d never reveal it, (even acquaintances, friends, etc…). It’s socially acceptable to perform honor killings in those parts of the world.

Agree. And abuse by family members is treated the same way. Looks more like abuse than honor killing. Reminds me of Inass Touloub and Sara Sharif. Both abused until death by their family. No one from her social Networks is going to talk (clan honor overrides local justice);and it is hard to trace the child. Family likely claimed she returned to Afghanistan or Pakistan to live with relatives or get married.