Gilgo Beach 4 Only (GB4)

[White_Rabbit]

That's specifically what I think happened. (Small detail: I don't think she took the subway. The Gilgo site says her cell phone activity shows she "most likely took a taxi". All that means is the phone never lost signal whilst on the subway - that it remained above ground. Could've taken a taxi, sure. Also could've been driven by someone.) But aside from that detail, I agree w you.

I would have to agree with you on that detail. I seem to remember reading that Melissa was last seen sitting outside her apartment in the Bronx. She may well have been waiting for a taxi.

 

[Girlinterrupted]

Most of the girls took public transportation to Manhattan and then used Manhattan to transfer out to the island. Maureen took an Amtrak train from New London CT to Penn Station. Gilgo Website says Grand Central but Amtrak runs into Penn afaik. Megan took a Concordia Bus w Akeem Cruz (her family has been elusive about that but they claim they last saw her getting on that bus possibly w Cruz). The Concordia bus line stops on E 42 btwn 1&2 ave. Not hard to get to Penn Station from there. Melissa, from the Bronx, took a taxi , a car service or John Terry was lying and he drove her himself or arranged a driver (quite honestly pimps don't say, well you can work for me if you feel like it or if you want to do this job yourself and in doing so take any share I would've made, that's fine w me!" Nope.) But she got above ground transportation to Penn Station.
It's interesting.

 

[Girlinterrupted]

Most of the girls took public transportation to Manhattan and then used Manhattan to transfer out to the island. Maureen took an Amtrak train from New London CT to Penn Station. Gilgo Website says Grand Central but Amtrak runs into Penn afaik. Megan took a Concordia Bus w Akeem Cruz (her family has been elusive about that but they claim they last saw her getting on that bus possibly w Cruz). The Concordia bus line stops on E 42 btwn 1&2 ave. Not hard to get to Penn Station from there. Melissa, from the Bronx, took a taxi , a car service or John Terry was lying and he drove her himself or arranged a driver (quite honestly pimps don't say, well you can work for me if you feel like it or if you want to do this job yourself and in doing so take any share I would've made, that's fine w me!" Nope.) But she got above ground transportation to Penn Station.
It's interesting.

Amber was already right there in Babylon

 

[Betty P]

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but if someone local was driving to Oak Beach from Manhattan (as did MP and SG) would they have taken the exit for the bridge on the west end of the island? It seems logical if someone was taking the train that they would go to the Babylon station, then get a ride or taxi from there to Oak Beach. Coming by car, that seems to be the long way? IDK, that's why I'm asking. It has to do with a hypothesis I have about the location of the bodies - SG vs the others. TIA

 

[Betty P]

Most of the girls took public transportation to Manhattan and then used Manhattan to transfer out to the island. Maureen took an Amtrak train from New London CT to Penn Station. Gilgo Website says Grand Central but Amtrak runs into Penn afaik. Megan took a Concordia Bus w Akeem Cruz (her family has been elusive about that but they claim they last saw her getting on that bus possibly w Cruz). The Concordia bus line stops on E 42 btwn 1&2 ave. Not hard to get to Penn Station from there. Melissa, from the Bronx, took a taxi , a car service or John Terry was lying and he drove her himself or arranged a driver (quite honestly pimps don't say, well you can work for me if you feel like it or if you want to do this job yourself and in doing so take any share I would've made, that's fine w me!" Nope.) But she got above ground transportation to Penn Station.
It's interesting.

In retrospect, all of this traveling by subway, hired car, etc. sounds rather expensive. Is it safe to assume taking "jobs" out in the Babylon/Oak Beach area was an expensive prospect? Is it possible the customers were offering a very high price for the services? Is it possible these services were of a "special type", too, thus justifying a very high price as incentive?

 

[PreciousDust]

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but if someone local was driving to Oak Beach from Manhattan (as did MP and SG) would they have taken the exit for the bridge on the west end of the island? It seems logical if someone was taking the train that they would go to the Babylon station, then get a ride or taxi from there to Oak Beach. Coming by car, that seems to be the long way? IDK, that's why I'm asking. It has to do with a hypothesis I have about the location of the bodies - SG vs the others. TIA

It's been 30 years (at least) but I used to make that trip all the time. If I was driving from Manhattan to Oak Beach I'd take the Midtown tunnel out of Manhattan, take the LI Expressway until the Southern State Parkway exit, then take the Southern State Parkway to Route 231 south to Babylon, then Montauk Hwy east until the Robert Moses Beach exit. Having said that, I see that Google Maps does it differently, staying on the LIE for far too long, imo. Still, there's plenty of ways to do it, including taking the Meadowbrook Parkway south in Nassau county, right down to Ocean Parkway (which is, um, desolate).

 

[Betty P]

It's been 30 years (at least) but I used to make that trip all the time. If I was driving from Manhattan to Oak Beach I'd take the Midtown tunnel out of Manhattan, take the LI Expressway until the Southern State Parkway exit, then take the Southern State Parkway to Route 231 south to Babylon, then Montauk Hwy east until the Robert Moses Beach exit. Having said that, I see that Google Maps does it differently, staying on the LIE for far too long, imo. Still, there's plenty of ways to do it, including taking the Meadowbrook Parkway south in Nassau county, right down to Ocean Parkway (which is, um, desolate).

Thanks for that information. I've been wondering about where the LISK came from as he dumped the bodies along Ocean Parkway. For the Gilgo Beach 4, he was probably driving from east to west, likely having come over on the Robert Moses Causeway bridge.

And if he lived fairly close to the dump site? IDK yet, but there's something relevant about the direction of travel when dumping the Gilgo Beach 4.

 

[White_Rabbit]

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but if someone local was driving to Oak Beach from Manhattan (as did MP and SG) would they have taken the exit for the bridge on the west end of the island? It seems logical if someone was taking the train that they would go to the Babylon station, then get a ride or taxi from there to Oak Beach. Coming by car, that seems to be the long way? IDK, that's why I'm asking. It has to do with a hypothesis I have about the location of the bodies - SG vs the others.

There are many ways to reach Oak Beach from Midtown Manhattan, but to reach Ocean Parkway from the west it would make more sense to take either Meadowbrook or Wantagh Parkways. The next parkway to intersect with Ocean Parkway after Wantagh Parkway would be Robert Moses Causeway, which would bring you past Oak Beach. From Robert Moses Causeway you would have to travel back a few miles west on Ocean Parkway and use the turnaround lane to go east again.

 

[White_Rabbit]

Thanks for that information. I've been wondering about where the LISK came from as he dumped the bodies along Ocean Parkway. For the Gilgo Beach 4, he was probably driving from east to west, likely having come over on the Robert Moses Causeway bridge.

And if he lived fairly close to the dump site? IDK yet, but there's something relevant about the direction of travel when dumping the Gilgo Beach 4.

Unsub was most definitely traveling west on Ocean Parkway when he dumped the bodies. Based on the timing of the phone calls to Amber Lynn Costello on the evening she went missing, I believe Unsub lives, or I should say lived at the time, approximately 25 to 30 minutes from where he picked her up in North Babylon. I assume he was traveling home after dumping her body, so my belief is he lived approximately 25 to 30 minutes west of North Babylon, on the South Shore of Long Island on the evening Amber went missing.

 

[Girlinterrupted]

In retrospect, all of this traveling by subway, hired car, etc. sounds rather expensive. Is it safe to assume taking "jobs" out in the Babylon/Oak Beach area was an expensive prospect? Is it possible the customers were offering a very high price for the services? Is it possible these services were of a "special type", too, thus justifying a very high price as incentive?

Many females will advertise ahead of time or let their clients know: "I'll be in your area this weekend Friday to Sunday. Then they book a hotel room and see multiple clients.
The thing is, these girls are not here to tell us what actually happened.
So, for example, while we have been told that Melissa was working on her own (independently), it's important to take note of where that narrative originated.
It originated from one person: her pimp, John Terry (or "Blaze"). So John Terry does an interview with Kolker for his highly anticipated book Lost Girls. The first book written about these murders, it's marketed as the first in depth look at the victims' lives through the people that new and loved them. It will tell the truth of who these victims were.
So John Terry sits down w Kolker and tells him Melissa was doing this job on her own. She was real secretive about it. I offerred her a ride but she didnt want it. Thats the last time i saw her. (Terry has now distanced himself from Melissa by implying they really didn't have a pimp/prostitute relationship and she did whatever jobs she wanted. And even though John Terry, with a heart of gold, offered to give her a ride, she declined. He couldnt have placed himself further away.)
And Kolker writes what John Terry says and now that version of the story becomes part of a book that is still used to this day as if it is a source of factual inarguable truth. Kolker is not an investigator. He is a book author who was racing to get this book out, the book that would make him famous.
When Lost Girls came out, there wasn't any organized linear summary of what happened. We just knew there was alot of bodies, one Commisioner would say this, another DA would say that. But Kolker gave everyone a source of organized information. I'm not saying he got everything wrong. But he certainly didn't delve into certain aspects. So as readers, neither did we and the statements given by prople like John Terry become solidified as fact. By us, the press, the podcasts, it's solidified in our minds. But who was John Terry exactly? John Terry lived in Brooklyn. He made trips frequently up to Maine to distribute narcotics. His clients in Maine would take what he'd bring - they were easier to sell a subpar product to than someone in NY for instance. So he'd often cut his drugs with other products which would increase his profit but the ppl in Maine didn't know the difference. While he was doing this in Maine, he would be recruiting girls. He'd make big promises, act like a boyfriend and bring them back to NY where he'd then integrate them into sex work. This is what he did to Melissa.These trips would continue, trafficking drugs up to Maine and recruiting girls back to NY. He would also integrate some girls, like Melissa, into these trips. So now, Melissa is a sex worker and helping her pimp traffic drugs to Maine. Why did Melissa and John Terry take a Concordia bus back and forth between NY and Maine? Why not just cut the time and drive? Busses don't get pulled over and passengers don't get searched. After Melissa was found deceased, John Terry was arrested for sex trafficking. He did his time in federal prison, got out, and went right back to his old routine. Travelling to Maine w narcotics, recruiting girls, bringing them back to NY. But once again, John Terry was arrested in Maine for drug distribution, and sent back to prison.
We have people like John Terry providing the accepted narrative all over this case.
Would you trust a word out of his mouth about Melissa going to some secret client to work a job on her own without him? I wouldn't. I also dont know what the actual truth is - but its not coming from someone like John Terry.
But these narratives that originate from the kind of people like John Terry are almost set in stone for us. The Kolker book comes out, magazines run cover stories on the "Real Story: The last hours of slain prostitute's life", Kolker gets rich, you better believe John Terry got paid to talk, magazines sell, docuseries and podcasts come out. This is a multi-million dollar business. And what actually happened to Melissa? We have only the words of John Terry and the world keeps turning.
Just my humble opinion.

 

[Girlinterrupted]

Many females will advertise ahead of time or let their clients know: "I'll be in your area this weekend Friday to Sunday. Then they book a hotel room and see multiple clients.
The thing is, these girls are not here to tell us what actually happened.
So, for example, while we have been told that Melissa was working on her own (independently), it's important to take note of where that narrative originated.
It originated from one person: her pimp, John Terry (or "Blaze"). So John Terry does an interview with Kolker for his highly anticipated book Lost Girls. The first book written about these murders, it's marketed as the first in depth look at the victims' lives through the people that new and loved them. It will tell the truth of who these victims were.
So John Terry sits down w Kolker and tells him Melissa was doing this job on her own. She was real secretive about it. I offerred her a ride but she didnt want it. Thats the last time i saw her. (Terry has now distanced himself from Melissa by implying they really didn't have a pimp/prostitute relationship and she did whatever jobs she wanted. And even though John Terry, with a heart of gold, offered to give her a ride, she declined. He couldnt have placed himself further away.)
And Kolker writes what John Terry says and now that version of the story becomes part of a book that is still used to this day as if it is a source of factual inarguable truth. Kolker is not an investigator. He is a book author who was racing to get this book out, the book that would make him famous.
When Lost Girls came out, there wasn't any organized linear summary of what happened. We just knew there was alot of bodies, one Commisioner would say this, another DA would say that. But Kolker gave everyone a source of organized information. I'm not saying he got everything wrong. But he certainly didn't delve into certain aspects. So as readers, neither did we and the statements given by prople like John Terry become solidified as fact. By us, the press, the podcasts, it's solidified in our minds. But who was John Terry exactly? John Terry lived in Brooklyn. He made trips frequently up to Maine to distribute narcotics. His clients in Maine would take what he'd bring - they were easier to sell a subpar product to than someone in NY for instance. So he'd often cut his drugs with other products which would increase his profit but the ppl in Maine didn't know the difference. While he was doing this in Maine, he would be recruiting girls. He'd make big promises, act like a boyfriend and bring them back to NY where he'd then integrate them into sex work. This is what he did to Melissa.These trips would continue, trafficking drugs up to Maine and recruiting girls back to NY. He would also integrate some girls, like Melissa, into these trips. So now, Melissa is a sex worker and helping her pimp traffic drugs to Maine. Why did Melissa and John Terry take a Concordia bus back and forth between NY and Maine? Why not just cut the time and drive? Busses don't get pulled over and passengers don't get searched. After Melissa was found deceased, John Terry was arrested for sex trafficking. He did his time in federal prison, got out, and went right back to his old routine. Travelling to Maine w narcotics, recruiting girls, bringing them back to NY. But once again, John Terry was arrested in Maine for drug distribution, and sent back to prison.
We have people like John Terry providing the accepted narrative all over this case.
Would you trust a word out of his mouth about Melissa going to some secret client to work a job on her own without him? I wouldn't. I also dont know what the actual truth is - but its not coming from someone like John Terry.
But these narratives that originate from the kind of people like John Terry are almost set in stone for us. The Kolker book comes out, magazines run cover stories on the "Real Story: The last hours of slain prostitute's life", Kolker gets rich, you better believe John Terry got paid to talk, magazines sell, docuseries and podcasts come out. This is a multi-million dollar business. And what actually happened to Melissa? We have only the words of John Terry and the world keeps turning.
Just my humble opinion.

I literally just switched Melissa and John Terry for Megan and Akeem Cruz. I'm a tired human being doing my best
But the same principle stands.

 

[White_Rabbit]

Many females will advertise ahead of time or let their clients know: "I'll be in your area this weekend Friday to Sunday. Then they book a hotel room and see multiple clients.
The thing is, these girls are not here to tell us what actually happened.
So, for example, while we have been told that Melissa was working on her own (independently), it's important to take note of where that narrative originated.
It originated from one person: her pimp, John Terry (or "Blaze"). So John Terry does an interview with Kolker for his highly anticipated book Lost Girls. The first book written about these murders, it's marketed as the first in depth look at the victims' lives through the people that new and loved them. It will tell the truth of who these victims were.
So John Terry sits down w Kolker and tells him Melissa was doing this job on her own. She was real secretive about it. I offerred her a ride but she didnt want it. Thats the last time i saw her. (Terry has now distanced himself from Melissa by implying they really didn't have a pimp/prostitute relationship and she did whatever jobs she wanted. And even though John Terry, with a heart of gold, offered to give her a ride, she declined. He couldnt have placed himself further away.)
And Kolker writes what John Terry says and now that version of the story becomes part of a book that is still used to this day as if it is a source of factual inarguable truth. Kolker is not an investigator. He is a book author who was racing to get this book out, the book that would make him famous.
When Lost Girls came out, there wasn't any organized linear summary of what happened. We just knew there was alot of bodies, one Commisioner would say this, another DA would say that. But Kolker gave everyone a source of organized information. I'm not saying he got everything wrong. But he certainly didn't delve into certain aspects. So as readers, neither did we and the statements given by prople like John Terry become solidified as fact. By us, the press, the podcasts, it's solidified in our minds. But who was John Terry exactly? John Terry lived in Brooklyn. He made trips frequently up to Maine to distribute narcotics. His clients in Maine would take what he'd bring - they were easier to sell a subpar product to than someone in NY for instance. So he'd often cut his drugs with other products which would increase his profit but the ppl in Maine didn't know the difference. While he was doing this in Maine, he would be recruiting girls. He'd make big promises, act like a boyfriend and bring them back to NY where he'd then integrate them into sex work. This is what he did to Melissa.These trips would continue, trafficking drugs up to Maine and recruiting girls back to NY. He would also integrate some girls, like Melissa, into these trips. So now, Melissa is a sex worker and helping her pimp traffic drugs to Maine. Why did Melissa and John Terry take a Concordia bus back and forth between NY and Maine? Why not just cut the time and drive? Busses don't get pulled over and passengers don't get searched. After Melissa was found deceased, John Terry was arrested for sex trafficking. He did his time in federal prison, got out, and went right back to his old routine. Travelling to Maine w narcotics, recruiting girls, bringing them back to NY. But once again, John Terry was arrested in Maine for drug distribution, and sent back to prison.
We have people like John Terry providing the accepted narrative all over this case.
Would you trust a word out of his mouth about Melissa going to some secret client to work a job on her own without him? I wouldn't. I also dont know what the actual truth is - but its not coming from someone like John Terry.
But these narratives that originate from the kind of people like John Terry are almost set in stone for us. The Kolker book comes out, magazines run cover stories on the "Real Story: The last hours of slain prostitute's life", Kolker gets rich, you better believe John Terry got paid to talk, magazines sell, docuseries and podcasts come out. This is a multi-million dollar business. And what actually happened to Melissa? We have only the words of John Terry and the world keeps turning.
Just my humble opinion.

It seems as though you’re describing Megan Waterman and Akeem Cruz, aka Vibe.

 

[White_Rabbit]

Many females will advertise ahead of time or let their clients know: "I'll be in your area this weekend Friday to Sunday. Then they book a hotel room and see multiple clients.
The thing is, these girls are not here to tell us what actually happened.
So, for example, while we have been told that Melissa was working on her own (independently), it's important to take note of where that narrative originated.
It originated from one person: her pimp, John Terry (or "Blaze"). So John Terry does an interview with Kolker for his highly anticipated book Lost Girls. The first book written about these murders, it's marketed as the first in depth look at the victims' lives through the people that new and loved them. It will tell the truth of who these victims were.
So John Terry sits down w Kolker and tells him Melissa was doing this job on her own. She was real secretive about it. I offerred her a ride but she didnt want it. Thats the last time i saw her. (Terry has now distanced himself from Melissa by implying they really didn't have a pimp/prostitute relationship and she did whatever jobs she wanted. And even though John Terry, with a heart of gold, offered to give her a ride, she declined. He couldnt have placed himself further away.)
And Kolker writes what John Terry says and now that version of the story becomes part of a book that is still used to this day as if it is a source of factual inarguable truth. Kolker is not an investigator. He is a book author who was racing to get this book out, the book that would make him famous.
When Lost Girls came out, there wasn't any organized linear summary of what happened. We just knew there was alot of bodies, one Commisioner would say this, another DA would say that. But Kolker gave everyone a source of organized information. I'm not saying he got everything wrong. But he certainly didn't delve into certain aspects. So as readers, neither did we and the statements given by prople like John Terry become solidified as fact. By us, the press, the podcasts, it's solidified in our minds. But who was John Terry exactly? John Terry lived in Brooklyn. He made trips frequently up to Maine to distribute narcotics. His clients in Maine would take what he'd bring - they were easier to sell a subpar product to than someone in NY for instance. So he'd often cut his drugs with other products which would increase his profit but the ppl in Maine didn't know the difference. While he was doing this in Maine, he would be recruiting girls. He'd make big promises, act like a boyfriend and bring them back to NY where he'd then integrate them into sex work. This is what he did to Melissa.These trips would continue, trafficking drugs up to Maine and recruiting girls back to NY. He would also integrate some girls, like Melissa, into these trips. So now, Melissa is a sex worker and helping her pimp traffic drugs to Maine. Why did Melissa and John Terry take a Concordia bus back and forth between NY and Maine? Why not just cut the time and drive? Busses don't get pulled over and passengers don't get searched. After Melissa was found deceased, John Terry was arrested for sex trafficking. He did his time in federal prison, got out, and went right back to his old routine. Travelling to Maine w narcotics, recruiting girls, bringing them back to NY. But once again, John Terry was arrested in Maine for drug distribution, and sent back to prison.
We have people like John Terry providing the accepted narrative all over this case.
Would you trust a word out of his mouth about Melissa going to some secret client to work a job on her own without him? I wouldn't. I also dont know what the actual truth is - but its not coming from someone like John Terry.
But these narratives that originate from the kind of people like John Terry are almost set in stone for us. The Kolker book comes out, magazines run cover stories on the "Real Story: The last hours of slain prostitute's life", Kolker gets rich, you better believe John Terry got paid to talk, magazines sell, docuseries and podcasts come out. This is a multi-million dollar business. And what actually happened to Melissa? We have only the words of John Terry and the world keeps turning.
Just my humble opinion.

Though I wouldn’t completely trust the words of either Akeem Cruz or Johnny Terry, the idea of the victims being familiar to the killer seems consistent in the cases of Melissa Barthelemy, Megan Waterman and Amber Lynn Costello.

We cannot know in the case of Maureen Brainard-Barnes if she was familiar with the killer.

 

[Girlinterrupted]

It seems as though you’re describing Megan Waterman and Akeem Cruz, aka Vibe.

Please read mea culpa above

 

[SecretAgentMan]

Im torn between LISK being with the GB4 more than once......this killer doesnt like exposure, he was never seen with any of the GB4 victims. Just seems odd that he would get together with any of these girls for sex & fun, & then finally decide after several times, hes going to kill them. A lot of exposure imo.....I dont know if I can believe that.

 

[minnie.snow.da]

I wouldn’t necessarily trust either pimp/bf IMO because they don’t wanna be charged as a possible accessory either due to the fact that if it was a known client, for both sides of the sex ring and drug business, you don’t wanna turn over a high paying possibly well connected client to turn on you or stop paying, but if he knew who she was seeing and she’s ended up dead then, knowing who it probably was came as a result of their actions and covering for the person in and of itself is still a crime, but they wouldn’t be connected to a murder by lying. They’ve already most likely chosen their professions by what is easiest for them with the greatest outcome, I feel they would apply that same thinking to a decision like this albeit easier for them to cover for the person than to come clean and say “oh yeah she was seeing so and so, and I sold them a bunch of drugs.”
I agree with the statement he was distancing himself on purpose.

 

[White_Rabbit]

Im torn between LISK being with the GB4 more than once......this killer doesnt like exposure, he was never seen with any of the GB4 victims. Just seems odd that he would get together with any of these girls for sex & fun, & then finally decide after several times, hes going to kill them. A lot of exposure imo.....I dont know if I can believe that.

I don’t think he decided he was going to kill them. It seems more likely that they were crimes of passion, committed on the spur of the moment, when he was triggered into an uncontrollable rage.

 

[Girlinterrupted]

Did I touch on any of the girls' level of familiarity with their killer?
If I did it was unintended; I wasn't thinking about anything pertaining to their murders.
However, you are dealing with someone who just referred to Megan and Akeem as Melissa and Terry for the entirety of a post.
At this point it wouldn't surprise me...
Where did you feel I was referencing the relationship btwn the victims and their murderer?

 

[minnie.snow.da]

Not necessarily, because the pimps were their killers, more that they would protect their drug business over giving the name of the possible killer. I think they would have some level of familiarity if he is a friend of someone they trust as well, or had met from someone that they trust, like their pimp.

It’s cool on the mess up, it is Monday after all. And my bad if you weren’t replying to me.

 

[White_Rabbit]

Did I touch on any of the girls' level of familiarity with their killer?
If I did it was unintended; I wasn't thinking about anything pertaining to their murders.
However, you are dealing with someone who just referred to Megan and Akeem as Melissa and Terry for the entirety of a post.
At this point it wouldn't surprise me...
Where did you feel I was referencing the relationship btwn the victims and their murderer?

I apologize as I may have been thinking of a previous post but replied to your post.