Gilgo Beach 4 Only (GB4)

[Theforeigner]

Well, at least, at this point, Foreigner and Just K have proven the technical possibility. What about the height of Foreigner's POI? Something like 5'11" or taller?

From his Nov and Dec mug shots his hight and weight is listed as:

November 30, 2010Height:
5'8"
Weight:
150


12-15-2010
Height : 5'09"
Weight : 162 lbs

Why the big weight difference within 2 weeks, I have no idea?

 

[graceholl]

I lean more towards the idea of sexual attraction to petite girls as opposed to the killer's ease of body disposal. It's not unusual for SKs to have a 'list of requirements' (as Ted Bundy did - notably long hair with a middle parting, young, and caucasian), and I think the GB4 killer's was petite girls. Megan Waterman may be the exception, but at 5"5 she was not exactly 'tall'. Her larger build, too, is different from the others. It could as ever be pure coincidence that ALC, MBB and MB were all very petite and slim, but I would suggest it was a sexual reason rather than logistical - especially given the links to the sex trade.

 

[Peter Brendt]

From his Nov and Dec mug shots his hight and weight is listed as:

November 30, 2010Height:
5'8"
Weight:
150


12-15-2010
Height : 5'09"
Weight : 162 lbs

Why the big weight difference within 2 weeks, I have no idea?

The size difference is a measuring failure. Those people just below the "healthy" height/weight relation tend often to linger a little forward, you know, that hanging shoulder thing. It can make half an inch and thus the entry gets rounded to 5'8".
Some month later, and after having been in prison, he gained weight (they feed them there while addicts in the wild sometimes just forget to eat) and another posture. No miracle in that.
But 5'8", even 5'9" is a bit small, unless he has kind of long arms for his size. I tried a little and came to 5'11" at least, rather 6' or taller for pulling a body from a truck bed and into the bushes. And lifting a body out of a sedan's trunk wouldn't be that much easier and even more hurt the back. So with that size, his best chance would be midsize SUV, crossover or maybe van and pulling them most of the way. Still, he is a little bit too small. But whatever, does he have a SUV or van?

 

[Peter Brendt]

I lean more towards the idea of sexual attraction to petite girls as opposed to the killer's ease of body disposal. It's not unusual for SKs to have a 'list of requirements' (as Ted Bundy did - notably long hair with a middle parting, young, and caucasian), and I think the GB4 killer's was petite girls. Megan Waterman may be the exception, but at 5"5 she was not exactly 'tall'. Her larger build, too, is different from the others. It could as ever be pure coincidence that ALC, MBB and MB were all very petite and slim, but I would suggest it was a sexual reason rather than logistical - especially given the links to the sex trade.

Normally, typed SKs have more than one criteria, unless they are fetishists, that trumps everything else. Volkert Eckert for example went exclusively for very long and rich hair. But the majority of typed SKs have three or more criteria (as you listed for Bundy). Just petite, especially one of them was rather average size, is a bit too general.
I thought already hidden similarities. Like face proportions or something. A pattern that would attract for example an Alcala-type of predator. But I found nothing.
So basically, I think in the direction of Carlton Gary or Lemual Smith or some of the serial rapists from that end of the spectrum. Especially, since the age bracket also isn't exactly narrow.

 

[Theforeigner]

FYI:

Found
1. December 11, 2010 -Melissa Barthelemy H: 4’11” W: 95 lbs

2. December 13, 2010 -Amber Lynn Costello H: 4’10” W:100 lbs.

3. December 13, 2010 -Maureen Brainard-Barnes, H: 4’11” W:105 lbs

4. December 13, 2010 -Megan Waterman H: 5’5” W: 145 lbs



Disappeard:

1. 2007 July 9- Maureen Brainard-Barnes, H:4’11” W:105 lbs

2. 2009 July 12- Melissa Barthelemy H: 4’11” W: 95 lbs

3. 2010 June 6- Megan Waterman H: 5’5” W: 145 lbs

4. 2010 Sept 2- Amber Lynn Costello H: 4’10” W:100 lbs


Found ? feet into the bushes/brambles:

1. December 11, 2010 -Melissa Barthelemy "A few feet"
2. December 13, 2010 -Amber Lynn Costello "right pass where the brush starts"
3. December 13, 2010 -Maureen Brainard-Barnes, "right pass where the brush starts"
4. December 13, 2010 -Megan Waterman "8 feet"

Disappeared:

1. 2007 July 9- Maureen Brainard-Barnes "right pass where the brush starts"
2. 2009 July 12- Melissa Barthelemy "A few feet"
3. 2010 June 6- Megan Waterman "8 feet"
4. 2010 Sept 2- Amber Lynn Costello "right pass where the brush starts"



Please post if you know how many feet into the bushes/brambles the other 3 victims were found


I found this posted by WS member "meltruth" who is
the sister of GB4 victim Maureen Brainard-Barnes :


http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176089&page=3#post8078289
06-22-2012, 11:01 AM
meltruth
"Maureen, Melssa and Amber were all found right pass where the brush starts. Megan seemed to be found about 8 feet into the brush between two trees. From the pavement of the Parkway it was very close like 10 feet from the pavement. You can walk from one spot to the other on foot between the four of them."

 

[graceholl]

Normally, typed SKs have more than one criteria, unless they are fetishists, that trumps everything else. Volkert Eckert for example went exclusively for very long and rich hair. But the majority of typed SKs have three or more criteria (as you listed for Bundy). Just petite, especially one of them was rather average size, is a bit too general.
I thought already hidden similarities. Like face proportions or something. A pattern that would attract for example an Alcala-type of predator. But I found nothing.
So basically, I think in the direction of Carlton Gary or Lemual Smith or some of the serial rapists from that end of the spectrum. Especially, since the age bracket also isn't exactly narrow.

Well, there's the prostitute element too. Caucasian, petite, vulnerable (drug problems) and in the sex trade. None of those are massively distinct, but do fit a certain profile. I also get the impression he pried on these girls a while before he killed them, and probably used their services a fair few times, building up an element of trust (hence the mobile phones being left), and perhaps had some deeper friendships with them - I brought up a while ago that he obviously knew Barthelemy's sister's name, as he was able to pick her out of the phonebook. You'd think he would go for "mom" or "dad" if he had only met her that night.

What's your take on the victims he chose?

EDIT: ALC was also repeatedly contacted, eventually giving in to the offer of $1500. Why did he want her so particularly?

 

[PreciousDust]

I brought up a while ago that he obviously knew Barthelemy's sister's name, as he was able to pick her out of the phonebook.

There, wasn't he just picking her number (and maybe her photo too) from the contacts on MB's cellphone?

 

[graceholl]

There, wasn't he just picking her number (and maybe her photo too) from the contacts on MB's cellphone?

It would be a huge coincidence wouldn't it though? LISK looks through Barthelemy's phonebook, manages to start making calls to her sister of all the people she has as contacts. Didn't he also supposedly say something like "Do you think you'll ever see your sister again?". Shows some prior knowledge IMO. Plus I'd imagine he'd want to taunt someone close to her, not a selected at random acquaintance or friend.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Well, there's the prostitute element too. Caucasian, petite, vulnerable (drug problems) and in the sex trade. None of those are massively distinct, but do fit a certain profile. I also get the impression he pried on these girls a while before he killed them, and probably used their services a fair few times, building up an element of trust (hence the mobile phones being left), and perhaps had some deeper friendships with them - I brought up a while ago that he obviously knew Barthelemy's sister's name, as he was able to pick her out of the phonebook. You'd think he would go for "mom" or "dad" if he had only met her that night.

What's your take on the victims he chose?

EDIT: ALC was also repeatedly contacted, eventually giving in to the offer of $1500. Why did he want her so particularly?

My problem with the "homicidal John" theory is, one would need to connect all four victims to the same last john. That would be an open game as long as no last john is identified, but as I gathered from some articles, they have identified at least two different ones. Which kills the theory.
Prostitutes as victims is such a subject. The general theory is, prostitutes are often chosen by socially awkward offenders due to their availability and the fact, they would start the communication. But that applies obviously for street corner prostitutes, because with internet, everything changed. They don't start a conversation, the john has to. But he can do that easily under a faked name, there is some anonymity left in the internet. So even internet advertising prostitutes are still an easy torget group and therefore, "prostitute" means nothing in terms of victim selection.
I look, since a long time, at victimologies similar to the one we have here. Means, not much in common on the visual side, a relative wide age bracket, one ethnicity and that combined with trophy behavior either by staging including signs of disgust/humiliation and/or trophy behavior. I found those in serial killers, serial rapists and even a spree shooter with a similar targeting mode. Bernard Jackson, the Waldo-Rapist, Lemual Smith, Carlton Gary, Omar Thornton and so on. All of them were African-American offenders exclusively attacking Caucasians (in all of the cases except for Omar Thornton, Caucasian females). In all those cases, trophy and dominance behavior played a big part. To go through all the details would make this post too long, but yes, I think, he is rather mission-driven or race-driven.

 

[Theforeigner]

I found this posted by WS member "meltruth" who is
the sister of GB4 victim Maureen Brainard-Barnes :


http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176089&page=3#post8078289
06-22-2012, 11:01 AM
meltruth
"Maureen, Melssa and Amber were all found right pass where the brush starts. Megan seemed to be found about 8 feet into the brush between two trees. From the pavement of the Parkway it was very close like 10 feet from the pavement. You can walk from one spot to the other on foot between the four of them."


(I have added this info to my previous post with the info on Height and weight ect)

 

[Peter Brendt]

I found this posted by WS member "meltruth" who is
the sister of GB4 victim Maureen Brainard-Barnes :


http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176089&page=3#post8078289
06-22-2012, 11:01 AM
meltruth
"Maureen, Melssa and Amber were all found right pass where the brush starts. Megan seemed to be found about 8 feet into the brush between two trees. From the pavement of the Parkway it was very close like 10 feet from the pavement. You can walk from one spot to the other on foot between the four of them."


(I have added this info to my previous post with the info on Height and weight ect)

That doesn't mean, your theory is wrong, it only means, the brushes are nearer to the pavement where where Megan was found.

 

[Theforeigner]

My problem with the "homicidal John" theory is, one would need to connect all four victims to the same last john. That would be an open game as long as no last john is identified, but as I gathered from some articles, they have identified at least two different ones. Which kills the theory.
Prostitutes as victims is such a subject. The general theory is, prostitutes are often chosen by socially awkward offenders due to their availability and the fact, they would start the communication. But that applies obviously for street corner prostitutes, because with internet, everything changed. They don't start a conversation, the john has to. But he can do that easily under a faked name, there is some anonymity left in the internet. So even internet advertising prostitutes are still an easy torget group and therefore, "prostitute" means nothing in terms of victim selection.
I look, since a long time, at victimologies similar to the one we have here. Means, not much in common on the visual side, a relative wide age bracket, one ethnicity and that combined with trophy behavior either by staging including signs of disgust/humiliation and/or trophy behavior. I found those in serial killers, serial rapists and even a spree shooter with a similar targeting mode. Bernard Jackson, the Waldo-Rapist, Lemual Smith, Carlton Gary, Omar Thornton and so on. All of them were African-American offenders exclusively attacking Caucasians (in all of the cases except for Omar Thornton, Caucasian females). In all those cases, trophy and dominance behavior played a big part. To go through all the details would make this post too long, but yes, I think, he is rather mission-driven or race-driven.

"but as I gathered from some articles, they have identified at least two different ones"

I don´t recall that any of the GB4 victim's last John was identified, could you please posta link to that info?

And since police have stated that all GB4 victims were contected through craigslist on untracable phone I belive that the "homicidal John" theory indeed is valid

However IMO the "homicidal John" didn´t have to be a REAL "John", but IMO he choose to contact his victims posing as a "John"


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...r-could-be-a-cop/story-e6frg6so-1226039941888

"The killer had a method for making first contact with his victims: he called them using disposable mobile phones that could not be traced."


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1375169/Craigslist-Ripper-New-theory-cop.html#ixzz1J7gvEGwn
Quote:

Officers in Long Island where four bodies of vice girls have been dug up, are convinced the killer could be in law enforcement because:

"He used disposable and untraceable cell phones to contact the four victims - all in their twenties - who advertised their services on Craigslist."



And this is "just" a blog but this blogger had apparently read some newsreports which he/she is refering to:

http://thestir.cafemom.com/in_the_news/118763/Craigslist_Killer_May_Be_a

Quote:
"The shocking news comes on the heels of several clues about the killer the police have picked up during their investigation. That the killer contacted all his victims through Craigslist gave them hope of being able to trace the suspect electronically and wrapping this case up quickly. But this appears to be no ordinary criminal. According to a report in the Daily Mail, the killer used disposable and untraceable cellphones to contact all four victims found back in December."

 

[Sillybilly]

It would be a huge coincidence wouldn't it though? LISK looks through Barthelemy's phonebook, manages to start making calls to her sister of all the people she has as contacts. Didn't he also supposedly say something like "Do you think you'll ever see your sister again?". Shows some prior knowledge IMO. Plus I'd imagine he'd want to taunt someone close to her, not a selected at random acquaintance or friend.

It is very possible the killer he got that info from MB herself ... it seems he may have kept her alive for a period of time because, over the course of the phone calls to MB's sister, he spoke about MB in present tense and in the last phone call he indicated he had killed her. He also made approx 30 calls to JT and seemed to have very specific knowledge about him as well.

 

[Sillybilly]

I don´t recall that any of the GB4 victim's last John was identified, could you please posta link to that info?

<rsbm>

Not necessarily THE last john, but FWIW .. one of the last to contact MBB through Craigslist was or had been a NY cop.

http://www.examiner.com/article/rep...-of-long-island-serial-killer-prior-to-murder

Investigators who examined Brainard-Barnes computer after her slaying, discovered that the officer was one of the last people to make contact with her using Craigslist, according to DNAinfo.com. Just what the two conversed about was not disclosed.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I don´t recall that any of the GB4 victim's last John was identified, could you please posta link to that info?

And since police have stated that all GB4 victims were contected through craigslist on untracable phone I belive that the "homicidal John" theory indeed is valid

However IMO the "homicidal John" didn´t have to be a REAL "John", but IMO he choose to contact his victims posing as a "John"


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...r-could-be-a-cop/story-e6frg6so-1226039941888

"The killer had a method for making first contact with his victims: he called them using disposable mobile phones that could not be traced."


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1375169/Craigslist-Ripper-New-theory-cop.html#ixzz1J7gvEGwn
Quote:

Officers in Long Island where four bodies of vice girls have been dug up, are convinced the killer could be in law enforcement because:

"He used disposable and untraceable cell phones to contact the four victims - all in their twenties - who advertised their services on Craigslist."



And this is "just" a blog but this blogger had apparently read some newsreports which he/she is refering to:

http://thestir.cafemom.com/in_the_news/118763/Craigslist_Killer_May_Be_a

Quote:
"The shocking news comes on the heels of several clues about the killer the police have picked up during their investigation. That the killer contacted all his victims through Craigslist gave them hope of being able to trace the suspect electronically and wrapping this case up quickly. But this appears to be no ordinary criminal. According to a report in the Daily Mail, the killer used disposable and untraceable cellphones to contact all four victims found back in December."

Again the links, didn't we do it only three months ago?
It goes every time harder, now we have to go twenty google pages back and I don't have the time for that. In one case, they found a NY state trooper, but he couldn't be connected with the other cases.

 

[Theforeigner]

Again the links, didn't we do it only three months ago?
It goes every time harder, now we have to go twenty google pages back and I don't have the time for that. In one case, they found a NY state trooper, but he couldn't be connected with the other cases.

I have now tried to find what you have previously posted on the "last "John" identified" issue.

I have NOT been able to find ANY link back up'ed info by you on a "last "John" identified".


The fact, as far as I have been able to find, is that NO last "John" has ever been identified.

And that IMO is completely logical due to that police have shared that the killer " used disposable and untraceable cell phones to contact the four victims"


Concerning a previous posting that I was able to find, posted by you, about a "last "John" identified" :

The problem is that you claim that the "Staten Island police officer" in question was Maureem BB's "last John".
Howoever... that was NOT what was published!

The correct information is that " the officer was one of the last people to make contact with her using Craigslist"

This is you post from 05-29-2012 post #415

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7982841&highlight=john+identified#post7982841

Peter Brent posted:
"That's one article about those two cops who popped up when they went through Megan's phone records. I forgot which of them was later identified as the last john. It's somewhere in this thread or another LISK thread, I remember somewhat foggy, we went through this loop already three or four times."

And here is what was actually published:

http://www.examiner.com/article/rep...ior to murder - National Crime | Examiner.com

Quote:
Maureen Brainard-Barnes, thought to be one of the victims of the Craigslist Long Island serial killer, was called by a Staten Island police officer just prior to her murder, one report claims.
Investigators who examined Brainard-Barnes computer after her slaying, discovered that the officer was one of the last people to make contact with her using Craigslist, according to DNAinfo.com. Just what the two conversed about was not disclosed.

Quote:

On Sunday, it was learned that two men who were once officers with the New York Police Department are allegedly now being investigated in connection with the serial murders.

Quote:

The New York Post reported that one of the two men who’ve been deemed persons of interest in the case is a former New York police officer who was released from the force in the 1990s for soliciting prostitutes while on patrol.


The other was stripped of his duties as a police officer several years ago, but continues to hold a desk job with the NYPD. He is unable to make arrests or respond to emergencies.


here is another link to info on the "two men who’ve been deemed persons of interest in the case".

http://www.examiner.com/article/two...ns-of-interest-long-island-serial-killer-case



And FYI, concerning the "State Troope" issue:

Your different postings about a "State Troope" whom you seem to mix into the "last "John" identified" issue has NEVER, in the media, or by police been connected to the LISK case.

The "State Trooper" was from, worked in and was fired in Buffalo NY. So NO connection to NYPD or the LISK case.


BUT...IF I have missed the post you claim you have previously posted with links to back up info on that two "last "John" has been identified, or just ONE "last John", and you can post it, I sure am gladly willing to apologize.

It's all in the details!...

 

[Peter Brendt]

I have now tried to find what you have previously posted on the "last "John" identified" issue.

I have NOT been able to find ANY link back up'ed info by you on a "last "John" identified".


The fact, as far as I have been able to find, is that NO last "John" has ever been identified.

And that IMO is completely logical due to that police have shared that the killer " used disposable and untraceable cell phones to contact the four victims"


Concerning a previous posting that I was able to find, posted by you, about a "last "John" identified" :

The problem is that you claim that the "Staten Island police officer" in question was Maureem BB's "last John".
Howoever... that was NOT what was published!

The correct information is that " the officer was one of the last people to make contact with her using Craigslist"

This is you post from 05-29-2012 post #415

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7982841&highlight=john+identified#post7982841

Peter Brent posted:
"That's one article about those two cops who popped up when they went through Megan's phone records. I forgot which of them was later identified as the last john. It's somewhere in this thread or another LISK thread, I remember somewhat foggy, we went through this loop already three or four times."

And here is what was actually published:

http://www.examiner.com/article/rep...ior to murder - National Crime | Examiner.com

Quote:
Maureen Brainard-Barnes, thought to be one of the victims of the Craigslist Long Island serial killer, was called by a Staten Island police officer just prior to her murder, one report claims.
Investigators who examined Brainard-Barnes computer after her slaying, discovered that the officer was one of the last people to make contact with her using Craigslist, according to DNAinfo.com. Just what the two conversed about was not disclosed.

Quote:

On Sunday, it was learned that two men who were once officers with the New York Police Department are allegedly now being investigated in connection with the serial murders.

Quote:

The New York Post reported that one of the two men who’ve been deemed persons of interest in the case is a former New York police officer who was released from the force in the 1990s for soliciting prostitutes while on patrol.


The other was stripped of his duties as a police officer several years ago, but continues to hold a desk job with the NYPD. He is unable to make arrests or respond to emergencies.


here is another link to info on the "two men who’ve been deemed persons of interest in the case".

http://www.examiner.com/article/two...ns-of-interest-long-island-serial-killer-case



And FYI, concerning the "State Troope" issue:

Your different postings about a "State Troope" whom you seem to mix into the "last "John" identified" issue has NEVER, in the media, or by police been connected to the LISK case.

The "State Trooper" was from, worked in and was fired in Buffalo NY. So NO connection to NYPD or the LISK case.


BUT...IF I have missed the post you claim you have previously posted with links to back up info on that two "last "John" has been identified, or just ONE "last John", and you can post it, I sure am gladly willing to apologize.

It's all in the details!...

That all happens, because you play that game all three months and I refused several times. So please, don't lose those again

http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/05/staten_island_cop_contacted_ca.htmlhttp://
That's what they found when the looked for the last john.

http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/05/ex-staten_island_cop_was_one_o.html
Here's another one

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/cops_eyed_in_slays_fOv6EUeWKQ9Qdo6bOn5zcJ
Here'S one from the NY-Post about it. posted by me in the AC-connection thread on 05-30-2012, 12:51 AM

Of course, I can't guarantee, they will be still there when you ride that horse next or over-next time, since I don't have any control about the contents of the NY Post website for example. They are already now deep buried under other LISK news.

 

[Theforeigner]

That all happens, because you play that game all three months and I refused several times. So please, don't lose those again

http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/05/staten_island_cop_contacted_ca.htmlhttp://
That's what they found when the looked for the last john.

http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/05/ex-staten_island_cop_was_one_o.html
Here's another one

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/cops_eyed_in_slays_fOv6EUeWKQ9Qdo6bOn5zcJ
Here'S one from the NY-Post about it. posted by me in the AC-connection thread on 05-30-2012, 12:51 AM

Of course, I can't guarantee, they will be still there when you ride that horse next or over-next time, since I don't have any control about the contents of the NY Post website for example. They are already now deep buried under other LISK news.

Peter Brendt

There was NO info whatsoever in those links you posted that indentified any "last "John" ".

So why don't you just admit that there has NEVER been identified any "last "John" "?

Your theorie that a "homicidal John" theory, is not possible, is obviously NOT valid.

You claim... that if a "homicidal John" theory should be possible, we have to be able to connect a last "John" to to all GB4 victims.

BUT...how on earth should we, or LE, be able to "connect a last "John" to all GB4 victims if the killer, as LE is saying, used " disposable and untraceable cell phones to contact the four victims"

PLEASE explain that...


And by the way... PLEASE stop insinuating that I am playing "games", when the ONLY thing I´m doing is trying TO KEEP THE FACTS STRAIGHT!!! because that, I HOPE, is what this is ALL ABOUT!

 

[Seaslug44]

Staten Island, NY - Maureen Brainard-Barnes, thought to be one of the victims of the Craigslist Long Island serial killer, was called by a Staten Island police officer just prior to her murder, one report claims.


Cop Contacted Maureen just prior to her murder

 

[Peter Brendt]

Peter Brendt

There was NO info whatsoever in those links you posted that indentified any "last "John" ".

So why don't you just admit that there has NEVER been identified any "last "John" "?

Your theorie that a "homicidal John" theory, is not possible, is obviously NOT valid.

You claim... that if a "homicidal John" theory should be possible, we have to be able to connect a last "John" to to all GB4 victims.

BUT...how on earth should we, or LE, be able to "connect a last "John" to all GB4 victims if the killer, as LE is saying, used " disposable and untraceable cell phones to contact the four victims"

PLEASE explain that...


And by the way... PLEASE stop insinuating that I am playing "games", when the ONLY thing I´m doing is trying TO KEEP THE FACTS STRAIGHT!!! because that, I HOPE, is what this is ALL ABOUT!

I know, reading is hard ... but you should try it sometimes. What do you think, how they found this trooper? I give you the hint, it's in all three articles.