Gilgo Beach LISK Serial Killer, Rex Heuermann, charged with 3 murders, July 2023 #7

[Podstan]

Maybe burlap was occasionally used to protect the plants in the wife's greenhouse? speculation.

It’s been reported that it was camouflage burlap that hunters use, not what we think of as burlap you use in gardening. https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/14/us/gilgo-beach-murders-suspect-arrest/index.html

 

[minazoe]

*I’ve forgotten an important detail. Was it reported RH is a disorganized serial killer?

In contrast, the disorganized offender is likely to be of below average intelligence, low birth order, and subjected to harsh parental discipline. He is in a confused and distressed state of mind at the time of the murder, is socially inadequate, and sexually incompetent. The crime scene shows that the crime was committed suddenly with no set plan of action for deterring detection. Facial destruction and sexually sadistic acts performed after the murder are typical. Disorganized offenders usually leave the victim in the same position in which he or she was killed and make no attempt to conceal the body. Case examples and photographs are included

Crime Scene and Profile Characteristics of Organized and Disorganized Murders | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/99114-99117NCJRS.pdf

Should I be scared to open this link? might be too gruesome..I feel as though he is very organized..he has his various phones, he uses victim's phones, he conceals bodies in bramble in isolated location he keeps handcuffs in his workshop.
he kills when wife is on vaycay... at least for these four victims.

my feeling is he has another MO when he is not able to use his home for entertaining his victims.

With the Gilgo fourI think it starts by locating a girl, talking to her arranging things, then he goes into deep fantasy, ideation and anticipation mode...he probably knows or decides who will win his "affections" based on his sexual attraction to them...or perhaps there is a certain type of personality that he dislikes...and this coupled with attractive features triggers the whole
process of being groomed, stalked and murdered. Personally I think he makes elaborate plans and acts them out. Other times it is possible that he is disorganized. Like maybe if he abducts a woman he picks up on the street or from a park ..but I think they have consider that other victims were probably dealt with differently..murdered outside or in a vehicle with much less time to prepare and dispose. mOO

 

[windrower]

Her hair being found is really throwing me off. Especially since multiple hairs were found and on different bodies.

^^^^ This. Yes, I’m cynical. I hope it is as LE says at this time.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

I’m with you. Should I be scared to open this link? might be too gruesome..I feel as though he is very organized..he has his various phones, he uses victim's phones, he conceals bodies in bramble in isolated location he keeps handcuffs in his workshop.
he kills when wife is on vaycay... at least for these four victims.

my feeling is he has another MO when he is not able to use his home for entertaining his victims.

With the Gilgo fourI think it starts by locating a girl, talking to her arranging things, then he goes into deep fantasy, ideation and anticipation mode...he probably knows or decides who will win his "affections" based on his sexual attraction to them...or perhaps there is a certain type of personality that he dislikes...and this coupled with attractive features triggers the whole
process of being groomed, stalked and murdered. Personally I think he makes elaborate plans and acts them out. Other times it is possible that he is disorganized. Like maybe if he abducts a woman he picks up on the street or from a park ..but I think they have consider that other victims were probably dealt with differently..murdered outside or in a vehicle with much less time to prepare and dispose. mOO

See, I think so too. That’s why I asked. I had thought I’d read that with his hoarding he must be a disorganized but the more I read, the more organized I think he is. Could he be a blend?

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Based on historical patterns, organized killers are likely to be above average to average intelligence, attractive, married or living with a domestic partner, employed, educated, skilled, orderly, cunning and controlled. They have some degree of social grace, may even be charming, and often talk and seduce their victims into being captured.

With organized offenders, there are typically three separate crime scenes: where the victim was approached by the killer, where the victim was killed, and where the victim’s body was disposed of. Organized killers are very difficult to apprehend because they go to inordinate lengths to cover their tracks and often are forensically savvy, meaning they are familiar with police investigation methods. They are likely to follow the news media reports of their crimes and may even correspond with the news media. Ted Bundy, Joel Rifkin, and Dennis Rader are prime examples of organized killers

Organized Versus Disorganized Serial Predators

At the heart of criminal profiling is the idea that serial killer crime scenes can be classified as either "organized" or "disorganized" in presentation.

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[dotr]

Her hair being found is really throwing me off. Especially since multiple hairs were found and on different bodies.

One day i am going to look for or try to start a thread specifically concerning hair as it relates to crime, but meanwhile..
Not saying this is likely in any shape or form, all hair transfer probably from the home etc, but wondering if the use of hair played any role in the alleged (RH) perp's fantasies? speculation, fwiw, imo.
Noting this fetish..

Hair fetishism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Man with hair fetish murdered and mutilated his neighbour, court hears

Danilo Restivo is accused of bludgeoning to death Heather Barnett, who was found with another person's hair in her hand

www.theguardian.com

''Danilo Restivo is accused of bludgeoning to death Heather Barnett, who was found with another person's hair in her hand''
rbbm

 

[imstilla.grandma]

One day i am going to look for or try to start a thread specifically concerning hair as it relates to crime, but meanwhile..
Not saying this is likely in any shape or form, all hair transfer probably from the home etc, but wondering if the use of hair played any role in the alleged (RH) perp's fantasies? speculation, fwiw, imo.
Noting this fetish..

Hair fetishism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Man with hair fetish murdered and mutilated his neighbour, court hears

Danilo Restivo is accused of bludgeoning to death Heather Barnett, who was found with another person's hair in her hand

www.theguardian.com

''Danilo Restivo is accused of bludgeoning to death Heather Barnett, who was found with another person's hair in her hand''
rbbm

‘I’ve thought of that before. Somewhere in these threads I asked if ’hair’ was his ‘tell’. You know like poker players, unknowingly twitch one eye when they’re bluffing, or Idk how to explain it. I’m confused now with all the girls but I thought that around the time msm was talking about a redhead and I thought about his collecting hobbies, that he might have intentionally went after her.
*eta: his ‘tell’ meaning that would be what would get him caught, something about the hair out of place where someone would notice something, maybe like his wife asked him something about a hair, maybe he was being recorded when he replied. I’m sorry, I just don’t know how to put my thoughts into words right now.

 

[ArianeEmory]

Others have already mentioned that he is a very reliable/professional source, but I thought I’d also add here that he’s interviewed several times on the LISK: Long Island Serial Killer podcast. His interviews are very helpful and he seems very grounded in the known facts of the case. Not exploitative or saying anything for shock value.

Quoting myself because I can no longer edit the original:

This podcast also has an episode that has the full recording of Shannan Gilbert’s 911 call, with some analysis.

(This is not my podcast/I’m not “promoting” it, I didn’t know it existed until about three weeks ago.)

 

[investigatefred]

*I’ve forgotten an important detail. Was it reported RH is a disorganized serial killer?

In contrast, the disorganized offender is likely to be of below average intelligence, low birth order, and subjected to harsh parental discipline. He is in a confused and distressed state of mind at the time of the murder, is socially inadequate, and sexually incompetent. The crime scene shows that the crime was committed suddenly with no set plan of action for deterring detection. Facial destruction and sexually sadistic acts performed after the murder are typical. Disorganized offenders usually leave the victim in the same position in which he or she was killed and make no attempt to conceal the body. Case examples and photographs are included

Crime Scene and Profile Characteristics of Organized and Disorganized Murders | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/99114-99117NCJRS.pdf

That was an interesting read!

 

[Vern]

^^^^ This. Yes, I’m cynical. I hope it is as LE says at this time.

I'm not cynical about it; it's in their probably cause affadavit. They've sworn to it.

 

[Lore Listener]

Financial abuse and coercive control are real and hideous. Yet I see no evidence that AE wants out of the house. So I don't see any reason to assume the problem is that she can't.

Just wanted to clarify that I'm not citing financial abuse as the reason AE is now continuing to live in the house, but rather a possible explanation why she and the kids had to sleep in a vehicle rather than a motel during the investigation of the house.

Your possible reasons why they are remaining in the house now that they are allowed back in all seem extremely plausible.

 

[dotr]

‘I’ve thought of that before. Somewhere in these threads I asked if ’hair’ was his ‘tell’. You know like poker players, unknowingly twitch one eye when they’re bluffing, or Idk how to explain it. I’m confused now with all the girls but I thought that around the time msm was talking about a redhead and I thought about his collecting hobbies, that he might have intentionally went after her.
*eta: his ‘tell’ meaning that would be what would get him caught, something about the hair out of place where someone would notice something, maybe like his wife asked him something about a hair, maybe he was being recorded when he replied. I’m sorry, I just don’t know how to put my thoughts into words right now.

rbbm
In an auto biography i recently read, the woman said she knew her husband was having an affair, but as they were close with a wide circle of people, she couldn't figure out which woman was the 'guilty party'.
Until she noticed that one friend in particular had taken to smoking a different brand of cigarettes- the tell- they were the same brand the author's husband smoked. imo. fwiw

 

[imstilla.grandma]

https://www.marshall.edu/forensics/files/Baber_Seminar2014_ODcsp.pdf

*I think he fits the category of ‘Mixed” the more I read: imo

http://www.leotrainer.com/serialtypology.pdf

 

[iamshadow21]

Based on historical patterns, organized killers are likely to be above average to average intelligence, attractive, married or living with a domestic partner, employed, educated, skilled, orderly, cunning and controlled. They have some degree of social grace, may even be charming, and often talk and seduce their victims into being captured.

With organized offenders, there are typically three separate crime scenes: where the victim was approached by the killer, where the victim was killed, and where the victim’s body was disposed of. Organized killers are very difficult to apprehend because they go to inordinate lengths to cover their tracks and often are forensically savvy, meaning they are familiar with police investigation methods. They are likely to follow the news media reports of their crimes and may even correspond with the news media. Ted Bundy, Joel Rifkin, and Dennis Rader are prime examples of organized killers

Organized Versus Disorganized Serial Predators

At the heart of criminal profiling is the idea that serial killer crime scenes can be classified as either "organized" or "disorganized" in presentation.

www.psychologytoday.com

It's not like a lightswitch, though. All offenders are capable of both disorganised and organised behaviour. Bundy's a good example to point to in that. While a lot of his behaviour was highly organised, he would medicate with alcohol, he would be impulsive, and towards the end, he exhibited decompensation that introduced a lot of uncontrolled, extreme overkill to his crimes, but also probably ensured he got caught.

A crime is a dynamic thing. The difference between if a scene presents as organised and disorganised could come down to intoxication, a passing mental health crisis, if a victim fights or behaves in an unexpected way (like escaping), if the perpetrator is disturbed in the middle of the crime.

We think of killers being meticulous and getting away with it for ages as being clever, but sometimes, it's striking something that works early on and doing it over and over without getting too clever about it, and being lucky enough to not get caught. Gary Ridgway and Samuel Little come to mind.

MOO

 

[waldojabba]

It’s been reported that it was camouflage burlap that hunters use, not what we think of as burlap you use in gardening. https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/14/us/gilgo-beach-murders-suspect-arrest/index.html

https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/camo-burlap-blind-fabric?hvarAID=shopping_googleproductextensions&ds_e=GOOGLE&ds_c=BPS%7CShopping%7CPMax%7CHunting%7CHunting%7CNAud%7CNVol%7CNMT&gclid=Cj0KCQjwib2mBhDWARIsAPZUn_n3bv56jVKp0oWKzCoDZbL8WngoEs4M1Cp2FwDlyQcUpTwo6-o9UPsaApCmEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Looks like the camo burlap for hunters is made from - 100% burlap.
So guessing it could be used in a pinch for gardening and many other things.

All this talk about her hair though - it's so easy to transfer hair when you live with someone or even frequent their house etc.- If you are a female with long hair your hair gets everywhere in your house - and easily transfers to others.

I am not sure why all the consternation ? Maybe just chit chat ?

I really hope its not a subtle way of throwing more
"shade" towad the killers wife. Right now from all we know she is a victim NOT a participant.

JMO

 

[Jurisprudence]

Why would LE indicate that they were coming out with the info about Vergata because they had already contacted her family members, and yet, her 2 grown sons were apparently clueless.

[snipped by me] I'm curious about this too. Do we know who the relative is who gave the sample? It's possible that LE assumed that person would alert the family.

jmo

 

[Jurisprudence]

It does, doesn't it? But LE has travel records that she and the children were out of the state for all 3 of the disappearances/deaths they are able to get travel info for. That throws another monkey wrench into the any usual pattern, doesn't it? I don't recall ever reading anything like hair and DNA from a recognizable, familial source like that before. Has anyone else? I recall (or think I recall) that Bittrolf was ID'd because his brother's DNA was in the system, but it was Bittrolf's DNA on the victim. Surely, this has happened before? Wouldn't RH's wife be in a world of trouble without the travel records?

I'm thinking maybe the burlap came from one of the greenhouses where she probably spent time?

Speculation

 

[Mountain_Kat]

How reliable is Kolker?
I've not read the book.

Like others have stated, I would say Kolker's book is very well researched. That said, you also have to consider that many of his sources might not have all their facts straight either. The definitive source is always LE, imo , but there again, in this particular case, LE hasn't always had a reputation for transparency and truth.

All just my opinion.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

It's not like a lightswitch, though. All offenders are capable of both disorganised and organised behaviour. Bundy's a good example to point to in that. While a lot of his behaviour was highly organised, he would medicate with alcohol, he would be impulsive, and towards the end, he exhibited decompensation that introduced a lot of uncontrolled, extreme overkill to his crimes, but also probably ensured he got caught.

A crime is a dynamic thing. The difference between if a scene presents as organised and disorganised could come down to intoxication, a passing mental health crisis, if a victim fights or behaves in an unexpected way (like escaping), if the perpetrator is disturbed in the middle of the crime.

We think of killers being meticulous and getting away with it for ages as being clever, but sometimes, it's striking something that works early on and doing it over and over without getting too clever about it, and being lucky enough to not get caught. Gary Ridgway and Samuel Little come to mind.

MOO

You stated this so much more succinctly than I ever could have. Thank you !

 

[investigatefred]

[snipped by me] I'm curious about this too. Do we know who the relative is who gave the sample? It's possible that LE assumed that person would alert the family.

jmo

I haven't seen any name mentioned specifically, only that a relative provided a cheek swab in October after the familial dna search linked to what they had of Karen's.