• #7,961
<modsnip: Quoted post was modsnipped>

I did not say what should or should not happen to the guns - that's up to the judge - so the judge may well come back and say that "isn't a thing" ~!
I pointed out that the Suffolk prosecutors are quoted as saying the guns are not believed to be used in the Gilgo murders
so they are releasing them to Nassau County to deal with - as per all the articles -
It could not be more simple
Will Nassau release them to the Heuermann's - we will wait and see
JMO

One thing to consider is that many of the guns, from prior descriptions in the media, are antique rifles. Those may have considerable monetary value, and due to their size and use of uncommon ammunition, are not likely to have been used in crimes. Pistols and revolvers are a different story.
 
  • #7,962
I believe this was already posted upthread but attaching again for those who may have missed it - BBM



"Earlier this month, Suffolk County prosecutors sought to turn over to Nassau County more than 280 firearms seized from Heuermann’s home in the days following his July 13 arrest on first and second-degree murder charges in the killings of Megan Waterman, Melissa Barthelemy and Amber Lynn Costello, whose remains were found near Gilgo Beach 13 years ago. Heuermann has pleaded not guilty and remains held without bail at the Suffolk County Jail.

Prosecutors have said Heuermann, 60, who worked as a Manhattan architect before his arrest, is also the “prime suspect” in the slaying of Maureen Brainard-Barnes, whose remains were found with the other three victims. All four of the women — the first of 10 sets of remains found along Ocean Parkway that are believed to be the work of one or more serial killers — were sex workers.

Suffolk County Police Department detectives searched Heuermann’s Massapequa Park home, in Nassau County, for 12 days, ending on July 26.

Prosecutors have said they concluded that some of the weapons may have been possessed in violation of state gun laws and “proper jurisdiction” for potential charges would be in Nassau County.

Suffolk prosecutors have not said specifically which sections of New York’s firearms law Heuermann may have violated, but sought to transfer the guns to Nassau after conversations between law enforcement in Nassau, Suffolk, the New York State Police and the FBI. No guns are believed to have been used in the killings for which Heuermann is accused, prosecutors have said."

All JMO
Thanks for re-posting the details so that we can separate opinion from fact as we discuss this. Sounds like it will be Nassau County that makes the decision on what firearms charges will be brought against RH, and which firearms, if any, will be returned and when.
 
  • #7,963
Caponi cited the likely long wait for his client to face a trial in the killings in making his appeal for the release of the weapons cache to his family.

“Although these items would most assuredly be returned to Rex Heuermann once he has been acquitted of the charges pending against the court, that eventuality may not come to fruition for many months,” he wrote.
*I’m watching the new 20/20 Gilgo on Hulu and his assistant from 2010 comes on. She speaks about how Rex was always asking clients to go hunting or shooting and how most declined. I’d love to hear from some of those who went with him. I don’t remember any fact that he actually did go hunting. If he was a good hunter, then he’d certainly have a familiar and favorite blind spot. I’ve yet to see a hunting license applied for. Well maybe, seems like I remember an old one but idk.
 
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  • #7,964
Yes agree - they are still investigating in other areas for other crimes that may have been committted with any connection to Rex

Ianal, but I suspect the current search warrant and anything collected as a result of that search warrant(ie the guns) is specific to this case- the Gilgo murders.

The Suffolk County prosecutor is quoted as saying the guns are not believed to have been used in connection to the Gilgo murders. I don't think you can legally hold on to the guns in case you come up with another separate crime in the future.

So my guess is, in the event he is arrested for any future crimes, new search warrants will be issueed specific to those crimes.

What the judge decides to do as far as the guns is anybody's guess, but if Suffolk County thought the guns were integral to their investigation/case IMO they definitely would not be releasing them to anybody - at all -not even to Nassau County.

ALL JMO

I'm sorry you misunderstood or didn't read my previous comments.

It's up to the judge to determine whether the guns should be returned to Rex Heuermann's wife.

It's outrageous and in appropriate for an accused serial killer to go to the national media and criticize the prosecution over ownership of his guns. <modsnip>
 
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  • #7,965
Thanks for re-posting the details so that we can separate opinion from fact as we discuss this. Sounds like it will be Nassau County that makes the decision on what firearms charges will be brought against RH, and which firearms, if any, will be returned and when.

<modsnip> The problem is Rex Heuermann and his attorneys using the national news media to gain sympathy for himself and to attack and impugn the prosecution over his gun collection.

A judge will make that decision. Rex needs to stop the PR sympathy campaign or the judge needs to issue a gag order, with no one talking to the news media.
 
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  • #7,966
<modsnip> The problem is Rex Heuermann and his attorneys using the national news media to gain sympathy for himself and to attack and impugn the prosecution over his gun collection.

A judge will make that decision. Rex needs to stop the PR sympathy campaign or the judge needs to issue a gag order, with no one talking to the news media.

I don't see RH's attorneys doing anything differently than defense attorneys do in many cases. They file motions, etc., and often give interviews with the media that they think could be favorable to the clients that they represent.

Besides all that, AE is looking for some financial relief, and this is one avenue she and the attorneys are apparently exploring.

And yes, as I have posted all along, the Court will ultimately make the decision.
 
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  • #7,967
I don't see RH's attorneys doing anything differently than defense attorneys do in many cases. They file motions, etc., and often give interviews with the media that they think could be favorable to the clients that they represent.

Besides all that, AE is looking for some financial relief, and this is one avenue she and the attorneys are apparently exploring.

And yes, as I have posted all along, the Court will ultimately make the decision.

I've been following these kinds of cases on and off for quite a few years. I've never heard an accused serial killer speak through his attorney to the national media to attack a judge or prosecutor.

<modsnip>
 
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  • #7,968
I don't see RH's attorneys doing anything differently than defense attorneys do in many cases. They file motions, etc., and often give interviews with the media that they think could be favorable to the clients that they represent.

Besides all that, AE is looking for some financial relief, and this is one avenue she and the attorneys are apparently exploring.

And yes, as I have posted all along, the Court will ultimately make the decision.
I totally agree with you @Sundog. <modsnip> To me the lawyers and media are just conducting business as usual. The lawyers and the media are only promoting their own agendas. Ugly as it may be I don’t find this behavior new or just specific to this case JMO
 
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  • #7,969
<modsnip: off topic>

There are good faith times that attorneys make motions that they know will be denied. They could make a certain loser to preserve appeal rights. They could make a certain loser to draw attention to an unfairness. For example, a pro-bono attorney could repeatedly motion for foster parents to be moved into a neglected child's house instead of turning the victims life upside down by pulling them out. That's not going to win, but the thought is long term social change.

But there questionable times to make a motion that is known to be a loser. Lawyers must advocate for their clients and give a fulsome defense of every defendant. But not when it is unethical. I don't see any motive for the attorneys to make this gun motion that makes sense. If Rex can get govt. help with his defense, AE can get government help for her medical insurance. (It's relatively easy to be MA eligible in NYS, and there is not an asset test for most people under 65.) AE has money in the bank, possibly for the first time. Rex has not shown a pattern of prioritizing his family's financial needs, using SNAP while buying guns and sex workers. And in a divorce, the guns or the proceeds for selling them would probably go to Rex in NYS. So financial reasons fall flat.

There is one financial reason that has been hinted at. It doesn't fall flat, but it's ugly. It makes my stomach turn. Right now, Rex is presumed innocent. If he sells his guns at a murderabilia surplus now, he might not be as vulneralble to that money going to the raped, tortured and murdered victims' families in civil suits. Once he is convicted, it is possible such money, money made profiting off crimes, could go to them.

So aside from the ugly, there is no financial reason to unload the guns.

The other reason, which is stamping all over an ethical line IMO, is to change the subject. IMO, all Rex's attorney's are doing is trying to make Rex seem like a victim of LE rather than a person credibly accused of raping, torturing and killing young women, his own daughter's age, and depriving people of their mothers since toddlerhood, there big sisters, their daughters, their good friends. What Rex is accused of is so terrible, of course the lawyers don't want that to be the focus. So, IMO, they have filed this no-win motion simply to change the subject.

I don't see what Rex's lawyers are doing as what lawyers all do. There are some terrible people practicing law. Some even rescued their freedom and law license after being caught laundering money and holding considerable quantities of illegal drugs by making deals with convicted felons with political connections. But this is the exception, and I refuse to cynically say, shucks, that defense lawyers for you! But it is a way to defend your client: it gets the public talking about some poor dude who can't sell his guns instead of some monster who rapes, tortures, kills, and harasses surviving relatives.

MOO
 
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  • #7,970
<focus snip>

Ianal, but I suspect the current search warrant and anything collected as a result of that search warrant(ie the guns) is specific to this case- the Gilgo murders.

The Suffolk County prosecutor is quoted as saying the guns are not believed to have been used in connection to the Gilgo murders. I don't think you can legally hold on to the guns in case you come up with another separate crime in the future.

So my guess is, in the event he is arrested for any future crimes, new search warrants will be issueed specific to those crimes.

<focus snip>


I've been looking (way too) deeply into this, and technically, you are correct about this to the best of my research.

But there are a few ways out. These truths do not mean this motion has a chance.

For one thing, the police don't have to release truthful information about their investigation. Maybe they have a GJ witness who saw a man with a gun talking to Amber as she climbed into his car without screaming, for fear of getting shot. It's a baseless theory, but my point is not its merit, but the possibility that something is going on that LE does not yet want the defense to know, at least not until they decide to use that piece of evidence. If the hypothetical evidence they are trying to distract from about a gun pans out as exculpating or both inculpating and going to be used, the defense has to learn about it eventually. But LE could decide the evidence does not exculpate or help them enough to bring it out. So they could want to keep it under wraps until they have to bring it out to use it or to play fair (share exculpating evidence).

Or maybe Suffolk County LE believes what they said about the firearms and the GB-4.

No matter what the truth is, they can easily flip and say, "Never mind, we are still investigating and we need these guns in our custody or with our partners in Nassau."

It does not seem, from lawyers blogs or articles on the subject, that it is going to ever be a winning motion to demand something back that is irrelevant to the investigation, and nearly impossible to get something back that is relevant. So, one thing LE could do if they are still looking into other crimes and haven't charged Rex with them yet, or obtained a warrant, is to simply tell the judge, we're not done with them yet.

But, what if Suffolk County wants to double down on saying that none of the guns were used in the GB-4. Because that is the truth, yet they think a firearm is relevant in another investigation they have not yet admitted to working on? All they have to do is get a new warrant. Don't quite have probable cause yet? Go to plan A, lie.

So LE has all the power to and all of the evidence-seized precedents in court in their favor. All they have to do is 1) say the current investigation is ongoing and they do need the firearms - or 2) get a new warrant.
 
  • #7,971
I've been looking (way too) deeply into this, and technically, you are correct about this to the best of my research.

But there are a few ways out. These truths do not mean this motion has a chance.

For one thing, the police don't have to release truthful information about their investigation. Maybe they have a GJ witness who saw a man with a gun talking to Amber as she climbed into his car without screaming, for fear of getting shot. It's a baseless theory, but my point is not its merit, but the possibility that something is going on that LE does not yet want the defense to know, at least not until they decide to use that piece of evidence. If the hypothetical evidence they are trying to distract from about a gun pans out as exculpating or both inculpating and going to be used, the defense has to learn about it eventually. But LE could decide the evidence does not exculpate or help them enough to bring it out. So they could want to keep it under wraps until they have to bring it out to use it or to play fair (share exculpating evidence).

Or maybe Suffolk County LE believes what they said about the firearms and the GB-4.

No matter what the truth is, they can easily flip and say, "Never mind, we are still investigating and we need these guns in our custody or with our partners in Nassau."

It does not seem, from lawyers blogs or articles on the subject, that it is going to ever be a winning motion to demand something back that is irrelevant to the investigation, and nearly impossible to get something back that is relevant. So, one thing LE could do if they are still looking into other crimes and haven't charged Rex with them yet, or obtained a warrant, is to simply tell the judge, we're not done with them yet.

But, what if Suffolk County wants to double down on saying that none of the guns were used in the GB-4. Because that is the truth, yet they think a firearm is relevant in another investigation they have not yet admitted to working on? All they have to do is get a new warrant. Don't quite have probable cause yet? Go to plan A, lie.

So LE has all the power to and all of the evidence-seized precedents in court in their favor. All they have to do is 1) say the current investigation is ongoing and they do need the firearms - or 2) get a new warrant.

To help out a little on this. IANAL, but i'm pretty sure that, once LE has arrested a suspect, courts have charged him and they move towards trial, LE cannot lie about evidence, etc.

They can lie to deceive or trick a suspect, but no more once he's arrested.

What they say now about evidence is supposed to be factual. In the case of statements about whether any guns from his collection were used in murders, the DA should be making a general statement. Actually, I was surprised to hear them say that when they hadn't finished examining all the evidence from their searches and when they're still investigating possible links between him and other victims.
 
  • #7,972
IMHO, the request for the gun return and the family living in the home without repairing it goes to the idea that assets of this man can be the subject of civil lawsuits filed by the families of those he killed. Any monies put back into the rehabbing of the home will not be recouped if there is a judgment against him and his properties. Additionally, regaining the guns means that they can be sold and used for income for the family rather than remaining part of his assets in any litigation that comes. An attorney working with the family would caution against spending any of the family money on that house. Additionally, if the guns are returned to the home, the family can do whatever they would like with them if he agrees to let them sell them. There are tons of folks out there who will pay nicely for the opportunity to have a serial killers autograph so I wonder what they would pay for a serial killer's gun. Again, JMHO.
 
  • #7,973
IMHO, the request for the gun return and the family living in the home without repairing it goes to the idea that assets of this man can be the subject of civil lawsuits filed by the families of those he killed. Any monies put back into the rehabbing of the home will not be recouped if there is a judgment against him and his properties. Additionally, regaining the guns means that they can be sold and used for income for the family rather than remaining part of his assets in any litigation that comes. An attorney working with the family would caution against spending any of the family money on that house. Additionally, if the guns are returned to the home, the family can do whatever they would like with them if he agrees to let them sell them. There are tons of folks out there who will pay nicely for the opportunity to have a serial killers autograph so I wonder what they would pay for a serial killer's gun. Again, JMHO.

IMO, this case is not special. There should not be special handling of the defendant's assets.

LE routinely searches properties and vehicles, and leaves some destruction behind, especially walls and floors if there is reason to believe there is evidence that seeped into them, around them. Vehicles and furniture often get destroyed.

Routinely, bystanders such as room mates, landlords, family members, car rental companies and the like are negatively impacted.

this is one reason that the search has to be approved by the judge.

In addition, you are right that property owned by the defendant, if found liable for damages, could go to the victims of the crime.



If my husband was dealing drugs out of my house and i did not know it, and i was unaware that they used my phone when their battery was allegedly charging to make some connections. A young mom dies of an OD on my husband's product. LE legally searched my house, including looking behind newly painted walls, etc., took all of my electronics and incarcerated my husband.

I'd just have to accept that, as long as the search were warranted, etc. Frankly, if I believed the charges and that someone died, I think it was a small price to pay for having narcotics rules enforced.

thats normal

in that situation, my broken walls would never come before compensating the kid whose mom OD because of my Husband. Do you think I could say, shucks, you know that my husband's valuable coin collection you seized because it looked like cash had nothing to do with his crimes, couldn't I sell that and fix my walls? The authorities would wait until the charges are dismissed or my husband was convicted for good, no more appeals. Then, maybe, they'd hold that coin collection in case the family of the mom who OD sues.


This case is not different from other lawful search cases where other people live with/drive with/rent to the accused. Drain traps dont come before the kids whose moms were allegedly raped, tortured, killed by Rex.

It is unfortunate, so much so that AE is unique in that she received many generous donations. These were gifts that are not at all typical, but Im glad for her because I'm sure they made this search much less painful to her than average.

Asa shouldn't have to compensate murdered victims if she is not at all involved in the crimes. But the person involved in the crimes can't just transfer away his property to someone whose family member he didn't murder just to avoid civil justice.


MOO
 
  • #7,974
IMO, this case is not special. There should not be special handling of the defendant's assets.

I don't think the courts will rule on any special handling of the defendant's assets, I am certain that they will follow the law on any claim that is filed by the attorneys and do what is right according to the law, not necessarily what some in the public would like or dislike.
 
  • #7,975
...If the hypothetical evidence they are trying to distract from about a gun pans out as exculpating or both inculpating and going to be used, the defense has to learn about it eventually. But LE could decide the evidence does not exculpate or help them enough to bring it out. So they could want to keep it under wraps until they have to bring it out to use it or to play fair (share exculpating evidence).

Model Rules of Professional Conduct Rule 3.8 (Special Responsibilities of a Prosecutor) requires a prosecutor to make "timely disclosure" of exculpatory evidence.

See: https://www.americanbar.org/groups/..._3_8_special_responsibilities_of_a_prosecutor

The following article explains this further, and includes citation to caselaw defining what is considered timely: The Interaction between Rule 3.8(d) and the Constitutional Requirements of Brady and Giglio - National Association of Attorneys General
 
  • #7,976
*Apparently Rex did have at least one firearm license:

“In as much as Rex Heuermann remains incarcerated and his pistol license has been temporarily suspended, this court should order the return of the seized property to a person designated by Rex Heuermann, individual or licensed gun dealer, who may legally possess the items,” said Caponi in court papers opposing the transfer, adding that the weapons have “significant financial value.

Prosecutors have said some of the weapons seized by Suffolk police at Heuermann's home may have been possessed in violation of state gun laws and “proper jurisdiction” for potential charges would be in Nassau County.
 
  • #7,977
Wonder if RW found some old property and figured out a way to get a tax break on it? speculation, imo.

2012 rbbm
''Besides being a historical curiosity, this forgotten room carries a tangible benefit — a tax break that has saved the Lagos thousands of dollars over the years. They are one of the few remaining beneficiaries of a bill passed by the state’s Legislature in 1961 that provides exemptions for shelters designed “in accordance with plans, regulations and orders of the State Civil Defense Commission.”

No one knows for sure how many personal fallout shelters were installed in the city, but in the 1950s and 1960s many Americans were anxious about civil defense and how to survive nuclear catastrophe.''

''The city’s Finance Department does not inspect or reinspect shelters to determine whether they comply.''


''Francisco and Maria Lago have a historical structure sitting under their Queens home, but they’re only using it to store tools. The moldy 300-square-foot room, which was installed during the height of the Cold War, is the only stand-alone private space in New York that still qualifies as a bomb shelter. The main benefit is that, thanks to a 1961 law, the Lagos have saved thousands on their property taxes over the years, though presumably they’re even less worried than the rest of us about an attack from the Soviets.''
 
  • #7,978
  • #7,979
*Apparently Rex did have at least one firearm license:

“In as much as Rex Heuermann remains incarcerated and his pistol license has been temporarily suspended, this court should order the return of the seized property to a person designated by Rex Heuermann, individual or licensed gun dealer, who may legally possess the items,” said Caponi in court papers opposing the transfer, adding that the weapons have “significant financial value.

Prosecutors have said some of the weapons seized by Suffolk police at Heuermann's home may have been possessed in violation of state gun laws and “proper jurisdiction” for potential charges would be in Nassau County.
RH isn't going to be getting his gun collection back anytime soon, at least not until after the trial. IMO
 
  • #7,980
RH isn't going to be getting his gun collection back anytime soon, at least not until after the trial. IMO
And if he wants them that bad he should try trading for a full confession...

And RH being the guy to go to in order to fix things must surely have considered this a possibility already.

I don't think he really wants them at all.

This appears to be a play in one act for the lawyers pretending they're challenging the police.
It's macabre to my eyes.
 

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