• #15,021
thinking on Shannen Gilbert..I do wonder about it and think it's possible that 2 things are true simultaneously..
that P is a personality disordered weirdo serial prevaricator who happened on a murder and inserted himself into it because he is mentally ill and is titllated by what happened. AND there just so happened to be a real killer and that was Rex...and he was the one that was really there to murder the girl. mOO
 
Last edited:
  • #15,022
thinking on Shannen Gilbert..I do wonder about it and think it's possible that 2 things are true simultaneously..
that P is a personality disordered weirdo serial prevaricator who happened on a murder and inserted himself into it because he is mentally ill and is titllated by what happened. AND there just so happened to be a real killer and that was Rex...and he was the one that was really there to murder the girl. mOO
Interesting.

I do think that whatever the frig Hackett was doing, it wasn't simple titillation or simple attention grabbing.

He appears to have taken actions to protect the murderer(s); he had to have some stake in the crime not being solved. It could have been to avoid getting someone he cared about in trouble, or it could have been about being afraid of getting someone who could hurt him angry, but he didn't just insert himself. He sabotaged the investigation.

For instance, he caused the security footage to disappear. If he were just a wannabe investigator or attention hound, he would have jumped to camera to take credit for thinking of and producing the recordings. If crimes gave him a special feeling, he would have watched them repeatedly. (I guess it's possible he did.)

To pretend that he had nothing to do with the security footage, and to claim that he was not aware of a missing person at the least well before any images would be overwritten is not believable, given how quickly he claimed to Mari that he had treated Shannan.

Of course, he is not alone. How it could be that the SCPD didn't, at the very least, ask for the footage to be preserved that very evening suggests they had decided very early on in that investigation that they felt no urgency to preserve evidence just in case Shannan did not get home. That is astounding, given the urgency in the 911 calls, including Coletti's. Coletti thought she was a 14 year old!

MOO
 
  • #15,023
Huge article concerning touch DNA and other matters likely to be brought up in the Gilgo and other cases, posting here for future reference, fwiw, imo.
April 19, 2018 by Katie Worth
''In one of his lab’s experiments, for instance, volunteers sat at a table and shared a jug of juice. After 20 minutes of chatting and sipping, swabs were deployed on their hands, the chairs, the table, the jug and the juice glasses, then tested for genetic material. Although the volunteers never touched each other, 50 percent wound up with another’s DNA on their hand. A third of the glasses bore the DNA of volunteers who did not touch or drink from them.

Then there was the foreign DNA — profiles that didn’t match any of the juice drinkers. It turned up on about half of the chairs and glasses, and all over the participants’ hands and the table. The only explanation: The participants unwittingly brought with them alien genes, perhaps from the lover they kissed that morning, the stranger with whom they had shared a bus grip or the barista who handed them an afternoon latte.

In a sense, this isn’t surprising: We leave a trail of ourselves everywhere we go. An average person may shed upward of 50 million skin cells a day. Attorney Erin Murphy, author of “Inside the Cell,” a book about forensic DNA, has calculated that in two minutes the average person sheds enough skin cells to cover a football field. We also spew saliva, which is packed with DNA. If we stand still and talk for 30 seconds, our DNA may be found more than a yard away. With a forceful sneeze, it might land on a nearby wall.

To find out the prevalence of DNA in the world, a group of Dutch researchers tested 105 public items — escalator rails, public toilet door handles, shopping basket handles, coins. Ninety-one percent bore human DNA, sometimes from half a dozen people. Even items intimate to us — the armpits of our shirts, say — can bear other people’s DNA, they found.''
With Bittrolff trying to get off on charges and the 3 scenes being similar, hands, legs, faces, chips wow, dna would surely be a factor. This study is interesting in all its facts. Great post, ty
 
  • #15,024
Yeah, I think that he worked out you probably can't get a fingerprint from burlap. More finely woven cloth if the print is in blood or ink, sure. But burlap is too coarse, too hairy.

MOO
Fortunately, it also tends to collect and hold other fibers and hair, too.
 
  • #15,025
Fortunately, it also tends to collect and hold other fibers and hair, too.
Yes, Locard's exchange principle applies, even to burlap. :p
 
  • #15,026
New York Post picked up the story about Asa selling the property to Craig Heuermann. I don't see any new details in here really, but some interesting info. The signs on the property gate are one of those things that seem completely normal until you know a serial killer owned the place and then they're pretty creepy.


ETA: Speculating again on whether Rex Heuermann followed news of other serial killers around the U.S., I wonder if he and his brother intended to use Todd Kohlhepp as a role model, and that's why they chose secluded land in that particular state? It seems odd that they'd plan to move to South Carolina without ties there. Is that region a hunting destination?

I just get the feeling from his notes on Douglas' book Mindhunter, the other books we know he owned, and the little bit law enforcement has revealed of his search history that he "studied" murder and was influenced by other killers. MOO, no real evidence.

ETA2: Looks like Craig was in SC long before Kohlhepp was arrested, but there's no way he and Rex didn't hear about him when Chester County and Spartanburg are so close together.
 
Last edited:
  • #15,027
New York Post picked up the story about Asa selling the property to Craig Heuermann. I don't see any new details in here really, but some interesting info. The signs on the property gate are one of those things that seem completely normal until you know a serial killer owned the place and then they're pretty creepy.


ETA: Speculating again on whether Rex Heuermann followed news of other serial killers around the U.S., I wonder if he and his brother intended to use Todd Kohlhepp as a role model, and that's why they chose secluded land in that particular state? It seems odd that they'd plan to move to South Carolina without ties there. Is that region a hunting destination?

I just get the feeling from his notes on Douglas' book Mindhunter, the other books we know he owned, and the little bit law enforcement has revealed of his search history that he "studied" murder and was influenced by other killers. MOO, no real evidence.

ETA2: Looks like Craig was in SC long before Kohlhepp was arrested, but there's no way he and Rex didn't hear about him when Chester County and Spartanburg are so close together.

Somehow, I think they may not get by with that. Two strong attorneys are representing victims families and they just may prevail.
 
  • #15,028
Since the time I heard about the Sandra Costilla charge against RH, I've continued to wonder if he committed his murders at the home. I have no doubt he may have done so, and many people seem solidly convinced it couldn't have been anywhere else. When I heard about SC and the wood dust and saw notes in the HK doc, I thought of a cabin in the woods. I wondered if the body hadn't been hidden in a compost heap. (And I'd wonder the same about Colleen McNamee and Rita Tangredi.) I'm still not convinced at least some of RH's murders weren't done elsewhere. Have been doing some research based on something I learned about where Sandra Costilla's body was recovered. Sources are inconsistent on the address, but the bail application notes 50 Old Fish Cove Road. Some sources note just "Fish Cove Road," but others "Old" Fish Cove Road. Here's why this may matter quite a bit. Both these roads exist, and just noting, these are .3 miles apart, a one minute drive or a six minute walk. At 50 Fish Cove Road, that is part of what was an extensive abandoned compound, complete with a lodge and I think 29 cabins, used by the Lindisfarne Association (new age religious movement) for seminars in the 1970s. A horror movie ("Madman") was shot at the grounds around 1982. At the time of SC's murder, from what I can find available, it was abandoned, and based on what I'm seeing online, I would guess that many if not all of these structures there were still standing at that time. Lodge, cabins, compost heap. Based on what I can find online, completely deserted and in an area where an explosion of new builds had yet to occur. Did RH use abandoned ruins of buildings & structures to commit some of his crimes? I have no doubt it's possible, and some Redditors have been speculating about this already. RH definitely has an interest in old structures just by nature of his profession. On the records in that superseding bail application, he makes a reference to King's Bridge and setting the date. King's Bridge is a covered bridge in Pennsylvania of historic interest that ended up being renovated I believe in 2008. He'd undoubtedly have been aware of many of these sites, and they're dotted all over the NYC area and beyond in the state, with many locations near where victims went missing and/or where they were found. Pilgrim's State Mental Hospital, Fort Totten, World's Fair grounds Flushing Meadows/Queens. There's an alarmingly long list. There are many abandoned airports and airfields, too.

It's something to think about. Not saying "this happened." But it's definitely an idea worth considering.
 
  • #15,029
Since the time I heard about the Sandra Costilla charge against RH, I've continued to wonder if he committed his murders at the home. I have no doubt he may have done so, and many people seem solidly convinced it couldn't have been anywhere else. When I heard about SC and the wood dust and saw notes in the HK doc, I thought of a cabin in the woods. I wondered if the body hadn't been hidden in a compost heap. (And I'd wonder the same about Colleen McNamee and Rita Tangredi.) I'm still not convinced at least some of RH's murders weren't done elsewhere. Have been doing some research based on something I learned about where Sandra Costilla's body was recovered. Sources are inconsistent on the address, but the bail application notes 50 Old Fish Cove Road. Some sources note just "Fish Cove Road," but others "Old" Fish Cove Road. Here's why this may matter quite a bit. Both these roads exist, and just noting, these are .3 miles apart, a one minute drive or a six minute walk. At 50 Fish Cove Road, that is part of what was an extensive abandoned compound, complete with a lodge and I think 29 cabins, used by the Lindisfarne Association (new age religious movement) for seminars in the 1970s. A horror movie ("Madman") was shot at the grounds around 1982. At the time of SC's murder, from what I can find available, it was abandoned, and based on what I'm seeing online, I would guess that many if not all of these structures there were still standing at that time. Lodge, cabins, compost heap. Based on what I can find online, completely deserted and in an area where an explosion of new builds had yet to occur. Did RH use abandoned ruins of buildings & structures to commit some of his crimes? I have no doubt it's possible, and some Redditors have been speculating about this already. RH definitely has an interest in old structures just by nature of his profession. On the records in that superseding bail application, he makes a reference to King's Bridge and setting the date. King's Bridge is a covered bridge in Pennsylvania of historic interest that ended up being renovated I believe in 2008. He'd undoubtedly have been aware of many of these sites, and they're dotted all over the NYC area and beyond in the state, with many locations near where victims went missing and/or where they were found. Pilgrim's State Mental Hospital, Fort Totten, World's Fair grounds Flushing Meadows/Queens. There's an alarmingly long list. There are many abandoned airports and airfields, too.

It's something to think about. Not saying "this happened." But it's definitely an idea worth considering.
He had a workshop setup in the garage, and talked about carpentry tools in that weird interview.

While another location is possible, it's entirely likely that the wood shavings came from the home.

MOO
 
  • #15,030
well he would definitely know locations to go to. so scary can you imagine? he is a monster. mOO
 
  • #15,031
IMO, Rex basically told us in his planning documents that he was deliberately flexible and willing to make changes to increase his ability to continue killing, and maximize his satisfaction from it. He also was aware that patterns were going to be evaluated. He told us he's not going to be too ritualistic, and even researched enough to be far more aware than average of clues he was leaving compared to the general public. So, for instance, one serial killer might always lure, kill, and leave victims where they were murdered, and not even realize that it is a pattern, while another might always move the victim to a hiding place without ever considering leaving the victim. Rex was aware of many M.O.'s and he reported knowing he was switching his up. Therefore, I think it is quite likely that he varied his killing locations.

In addition, the horrid anecdotes at "parties" or in cabs or cars that were credibly reported about the distinctive-looking Rex vary a lot, too. There are abstract patterns, such as not liking to be challenged, but the plot lines are all over the map. Violent sexual control of a passenger in a car than firing a gun in the car is wholly different from letting a victim run from his home nude which is different from talking about serial killers and insisting on going back to his place which is different from learning about a sex workers family and gifting an envelope of cut paper. These occur in his home, in a hotel, and driving public roads. He threatened to bring a cab driver to the woods.

It would not surprise me at all if Rex had more than one place he committed his crimes. If it is eventually proven he tortured and killed at his home, that won't mean to me that he didn't do the same in a variety of other locations.

MOO
 
  • #15,032
He had a workshop setup in the garage, and talked about carpentry tools in that weird interview.

While another location is possible, it's entirely likely that the wood shavings came from the home.

MOO
Is there any evidence of wood shavings at all? Rita Tangredi and Colleen McNamee were found with wood shavings (sometimes called wood chips) that ended up being tiny particles of wood, not, like, sawdust. But I haven't seen any evidence that there actually was wood dust or wood particles found with Sandra. The recent bail application does not mention any.

I'm wondering if this is another case of online sleuths making assumptions because law enforcement said there were similarities, such as the claims that have been disproven that all three women died the same way (all three were strangled, but Rita and Colleen died from violent head trauma, while Sandra was strangled and stabbed).
 
  • #15,033
Is there any evidence of wood shavings at all? Rita Tangredi and Colleen McNamee were found with wood shavings (sometimes called wood chips) that ended up being tiny particles of wood, not, like, sawdust. But I haven't seen any evidence that there actually was wood dust or wood particles found with Sandra. The recent bail application does not mention any.

I'm wondering if this is another case of online sleuths making assumptions because law enforcement said there were similarities, such as the claims that have been disproven that all three women died the same way (all three were strangled, but Rita and Colleen died from violent head trauma, while Sandra was strangled and stabbed).
The da per the new york post relayed the info re the chips at all scenes in jbs attempt to reopen- that is where i saw the info. It was in the article
 
  • #15,034
Is there any evidence of wood shavings at all? Rita Tangredi and Colleen McNamee were found with wood shavings (sometimes called wood chips) that ended up being tiny particles of wood, not, like, sawdust. But I haven't seen any evidence that there actually was wood dust or wood particles found with Sandra. The recent bail application does not mention any.

I'm wondering if this is another case of online sleuths making assumptions because law enforcement said there were similarities, such as the claims that have been disproven that all three women died the same way (all three were strangled, but Rita and Colleen died from violent head trauma, while Sandra was strangled and stabbed).

NY Post: “Colleen and Sandra both had their shirts pulled up over their faces, and the DA’s [office] has also claimed that there were wood chips on all three bodies … any logical person [would believe] one person was responsible for all three murders.” LI killer John Bittrolff urges DA to take another look at his case after Rex Heuermann charged in ‘eerily similar’ killing

Another source: "Though Bittrolff’s DNA was not found on Costilla, all three victims were displayed in the same sexual manner and missing a single shoe, prosecutors said, and wood shavings were found at all three scenes. Both Tangredi and McNamee were known to engage in sex work, while Costilla 'led a similar lifestyle,' Spota said." https://drgnews.com/2024/06/08/long...after-architect-is-charged-in-3-of-11-deaths/

I'm pretty sure the wood shavings are part of the reason they were so convinced this murder was also Bittrolff.

And have been looking into the "HK" for Heuermann's doc title. While agreed this could be Hunt/Kill, Hit/Kill, and so on, just noting I see a few sources saying "HK" is hotel/hospitality lingo for "housekeeping," like the housekeeping department in the hotel/facility that does clean up and maintenance.
 
  • #15,035
  • #15,036
The da per the new york post relayed the info re the chips at all scenes in jbs attempt to reopen- that is where i saw the info. It was in the article
This is lower on the priority list compared to identifying victims and their killer(s). IMO.
 
  • #15,037
This is lower on the priority list compared to identifying victims and their killer(s). IMO.
But it would add two more victims to rex if accurate. Know that le have tried and closed case for jb. My response was to upstream posts. Yes, open, not looked at, attributed to are very important.
 
  • #15,038
NY Post: “Colleen and Sandra both had their shirts pulled up over their faces, and the DA’s [office] has also claimed that there were wood chips on all three bodies … any logical person [would believe] one person was responsible for all three murders.” LI killer John Bittrolff urges DA to take another look at his case after Rex Heuermann charged in ‘eerily similar’ killing

Another source: "Though Bittrolff’s DNA was not found on Costilla, all three victims were displayed in the same sexual manner and missing a single shoe, prosecutors said, and wood shavings were found at all three scenes. Both Tangredi and McNamee were known to engage in sex work, while Costilla 'led a similar lifestyle,' Spota said." https://drgnews.com/2024/06/08/long...after-architect-is-charged-in-3-of-11-deaths/

I'm pretty sure the wood shavings are part of the reason they were so convinced this murder was also Bittrolff.

And have been looking into the "HK" for Heuermann's doc title. While agreed this could be Hunt/Kill, Hit/Kill, and so on, just noting I see a few sources saying "HK" is hotel/hospitality lingo for "housekeeping," like the housekeeping department in the hotel/facility that does clean up and maintenance.
I've changed my mind about questioning BIttrolff's convictions. District Attorney Ray Tierney seems too smart and savvy to pass up a chance to further a political career by "righting a 20-year wrong" if that were a possibility.

If Tierney has aspirations beyond his current position, he has to know how well freeing someone wrongly imprisoned would play in any campaign. It would make him appear to be more interested in justice than the win/loss tally. This is the highest profile case of his career, that's why he's trying it himself - IMO. So, would it not be "icing on the cake" to right a great injustice of 20 years --- if that were a possibility?

I've been outspoken in my desire for DA Tierney to be very specific as in: "We've closely examined all the evidence in the Bittrolff convictions and there is nothing NOTHING to suggest RH is involved, not a dab of DNA nor a single hair belonging to him or any known associate." That's what I'd like to see to be positive of the convictions. However, since Tierney hasn't worked to overturn an injustice, I suspect they're good convictions.

Changing the subject to the rest of your post:

According to the Wikipedia article on Dennis Rader, he suggested BTK (among "many others") as a name for himself in 1978 in a letter to television station KAKE, in Wichita, claiming responsibility for the murders of the Oteros, Bright, Vian Relford, and Fox.

IF RH were following serial killers, isn't it likely he would be familiar with the "BTK" name by 2000 when he was writing the HK document? While it could easily be for HouseKeeping, as suggested, I think Hunt Kill or another shortened form of his MO is also possible. Unfortunately, we'll never know unless he starts talking.
 
  • #15,039
I've changed my mind about questioning BIttrolff's convictions. District Attorney Ray Tierney seems too smart and savvy to pass up a chance to further a political career by "righting a 20-year wrong" if that were a possibility.

If Tierney has aspirations beyond his current position, he has to know how well freeing someone wrongly imprisoned would play in any campaign. It would make him appear to be more interested in justice than the win/loss tally. This is the highest profile case of his career, that's why he's trying it himself - IMO. So, would it not be "icing on the cake" to right a great injustice of 20 years --- if that were a possibility?

I've been outspoken in my desire for DA Tierney to be very specific as in: "We've closely examined all the evidence in the Bittrolff convictions and there is nothing NOTHING to suggest RH is involved, not a dab of DNA nor a single hair belonging to him or any known associate." That's what I'd like to see to be positive of the convictions. However, since Tierney hasn't worked to overturn an injustice, I suspect they're good convictions.

Changing the subject to the rest of your post:

According to the Wikipedia article on Dennis Rader, he suggested BTK (among "many others") as a name for himself in 1978 in a letter to television station KAKE, in Wichita, claiming responsibility for the murders of the Oteros, Bright, Vian Relford, and Fox.

IF RH were following serial killers, isn't it likely he would be familiar with the "BTK" name by 2000 when he was writing the HK document? While it could easily be for HouseKeeping, as suggested, I think Hunt Kill or another shortened form of his MO is also possible. Unfortunately, we'll never know unless he starts talking.
Good points. One thing we do know is that BTK outed himself using the moniker Rex.

Maybe BTK outed himself to people of his ilk online, provided them with README-files? Perhaps not understanding at all how vulnerable he was.

Which is incredible to me, given all his secrets. But it is in line with his personality. Hubris.

Ref: https://www.kansas.com/news/special-reports/btk/article1003738.html
 
Last edited:
  • #15,040
Good points. One thing we do know is that BTK outed himself using the moniker Rex.

Maybe BTK outed himself to people of his ilk online, provided them with README-files? Perhaps not understanding at all how vulnerable he was.

Which is incredible to me, given all his secrets. But it is in line with his personality. Hubris.

Ref: https://www.kansas.com/news/special-reports/btk/article1003738.html
Thanks, I didn't know the REX connection that tied to BTK.

Do you remember when RH was arrested, Rader all dressed up, proud as a peacock being interviewed? He called RH his "clone".

 

Guardians Monthly Goal

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
122
Guests online
2,742
Total visitors
2,864

Thread Chapters

Forum statistics

Threads
646,147
Messages
18,854,999
Members
245,920
Latest member
Onewayoflife
Top