Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, 11 May 2021 #2 *ARREST*

[TootsieFootsie]

I believe in every case all relationships are relevant.

I can't help but notice the way the couple's relationship is being mentioned in the press. I can't see how it's relevant

 

[Winterbells]

I believe in every case all relationships are relevant.

And I agree. Everything and everyone is relevant.
I'm just noting that, to me, anyway, it really feels like overkill, the way the relationship is being described; this banging on and on about how happy and fairytale-like it was. A Shakespeare quote about protesting too much, comes to mind. I could understand B being defensive, but the 'hypnotherapist'? and CC's best friend?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Yes I see what you mean.

And I agree. Everything and everyone is relevant.
I'm just noting that, to me, anyway, it really feels like overkill, the way the relationship is being described; this banging on and on about how happy and fairytale-like it was. A Shakespeare quote about protesting too much, comes to mind. I could understand B being defensive, but the 'hypnotherapist'? and CC's best friend?

 

[Winterbells]

The press need a story to have an angle. For example, the angle they seem to be going for here is something like "perfect couple are victims of the perfect crime".
In my cynical view, this type of angle in general leaves room for there to be (if appropriate) a shocking, evil twist that "no-one saw coming". The "evil all along" trope. Then the press can go for the "We were all tricked" angle, etc. and sell more of their media.

I'm not suggesting I think this is likely to be the outcome here. I'm talking generally about how I believe the press manipulate readers into buying their media.

 

[Orgona]

Of course. And I agree. The whole sorry saga is hard to comprehend. But I just don't get why the therapist and CC's best friend, for example, would be defensive about the couple's relationship. You'd think, as people who had a very personal connection with CC, they of all people, would be highly puzzled about what happened that night and willing to consider all possibilities.
Just my opinion, of course.

I can imagine if CC only told her friend good things about her husband and their marriage the friend would defend the fairy tale she always heard about.
Some people are ashamed when their life doesn’t go the way they and everybody around them imagined it would, because they might believe it’s all of their own fault -even if it’s definitely not- and that would make it difficult to confess that the marriage is not the fairy tale it seemed in the beginning. All the more if she was hearing from others how lucky and privileged she was having ever met and married a great guy like her husband.

I don’t know about the therapist, I’m not sure she meant her comment as victim blaming, I would need more context to decide. It could just have been an unfortunately formulated comment.
In any event she should be careful over what she says, because she could potentially alienate potential and actual clients. I’m surprised she did speak out. Initially this might have seemed like a good opportunity to advertise herself.

All IMHO

 

[Winterbells]

I can imagine if CC only told her friend good things about her husband and their marriage the friend would defend the fairy tale she always heard about.
Some people are ashamed when their life doesn’t go the way they and everybody around them imagined it would, because they might believe it’s all of their own fault -even if it’s definitely not- and that would make it difficult to confess that the marriage is not the fairy tale it seemed in the beginning. All the more if she was hearing from others how lucky and privileged she was having ever met and married a great guy like her husband.

I don’t know about the therapist, I’m not sure she meant her comment as victim blaming, I would need more context to decide. It could just have been an unfortunately formulated comment.
In any event she should be careful over what she says, because she could potentially alienate potential and actual clients. I’m surprised she did speak out. Initially this might have seemed like a good opportunity to advertise herself.

All IMHO

I take your points of course.
Just to clarify, the comments made by the therapist I was referring to were about how in love and happy they seemed, and how supportive CC's husband was, rather than the bit about warning CC not to tell people about the land purchase.

 

[Orgona]

I take your points of course.
Just to clarify, the comments made by the therapist I was referring to were about how in love and happy they seemed, and how supportive CC's husband was, rather than the bit about warning CC not to tell people about the land purchase.

I see. I missed that part.

In any case it wouldn’t be healthy business wise to publicly speak ill of any of her clients.

 

[Dotta]

I can imagine if CC only told her friend good things about her husband and their marriage the friend would defend the fairy tale she always heard about.
Some people are ashamed when their life doesn’t go the way they and everybody around them imagined it would, because they might believe it’s all of their own fault -even if it’s definitely not- and that would make it difficult to confess that the marriage is not the fairy tale it seemed in the beginning. All the more if she was hearing from others how lucky and privileged she was having ever met and married a great guy like her husband.

I don’t know about the therapist, I’m not sure she meant her comment as victim blaming, I would need more context to decide. It could just have been an unfortunately formulated comment.
In any event she should be careful over what she says, because she could potentially alienate potential and actual clients. I’m surprised she did speak out. Initially this might have seemed like a good opportunity to advertise herself.

All IMHO

"Unfortunately formulated comments" don't befit true psychologists. Never! As for "fairytale" romances - they exist only in Harlequin books. That's why this business is so successful. They sell dreams.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

After I haven't been here for a day or so I am almost expecting a six letter word to have been added to the heading of this thread.

It's just wishful thinking but I hope they do find whoever is responsible.

 

[Winterbells]

I see. I missed that part.

In any case it wouldn’t be healthy business wise to publicly speak ill of any of her clients.

I think I grabbed the whole article and shoved it into an online translator, which is where I got those bits of info from, although perhaps it was also posted here in the previous thread.
Well, she shouldn't be revealing anything whatsoever about her clients, right?

 

[Orgona]

"Unfortunately formulated comments" don't befit true psychologists. Never! As for "fairytale" romances - they exist only in Harlequin books. That's why this business is so successful. They sell dreams.

Is she a true psychologist? Isn’t she a hypnotherapist?

As for a fairy tale, if people wouldn’t believe in happily ever after very few would marry and have children. But I agree, real life can be different from our dreams and as people gets older normally they mature to realize that.

 

[Orgona]

I think I grabbed the whole article and shoved it into an online translator, which is where I got those bits of info from, although perhaps it was also posted here in the previous thread.
Well, she shouldn't be revealing anything whatsoever about her clients, right?

Right. Not to the public at large anyway.

ETA:

After I haven't been here for a day or so I am almost expecting a six letter word to have been added to the heading of this thread.

It's just wishful thinking but I hope they do find whoever is responsible.

Wouldn’t that be great? We are hearing it a few days already that LE is nearing to a conclusion. I’m hoping with you it will happen sooner rather than later.

 

[Patrick Jane]

Sorry for the confusion. From this article, the hypnotist is the one that stated C had no friends where she lived:

Η Καρολάιν δεν είχε φίλες, οι φίλες της ήταν στην Αλόννησο και αφιέρωνε όλο τον χρόνο στο παιδάκι της. Στην ψυχολόγο έκανε καθε φορά κατάθεση ψυχής.

This made me want to hear any insight Faidra had into the relationship. Fairytale, eh? Prince Charming in public. She is with C at a conference and he shows up at the end? Why? Can't she just be with her friends for once? But no, it's not jeez, he's got her on a tight leash, it's look at how he fawns over her. Again, why didn't she have local friends, even some new mother baby online group? These are just MOO on observations of their relationship.

ETA: As @elliefant notes, fairytales were traditionally (Brothers) Grimm. It's easy to forget their true nature with Disney around.

Anybody else notice this part in the article?

Με τον Μπάμπη έχουμε συνεχή επικοινωνία γιατί έχει να ξεπεράσει πολλά πράγματα . . . Μου έχει μιλήσει δεν θα ήθελα να μπω σε λεπτομέρειες, είναι στοιχεία που έχει η αστυνομία. Μου έχει περιγράψει τι έγινε. Δεν θα ήθελα να πω άλλα.
Babis and I are in constant communication because he's had to overcome so much . . . He's talked to me but I wouldn't want to go into details, it's evidence/information that the police have. He's described to me what happened. I wouldn't like to say any more (than that).

(my translation)

nevertheless the article goes on to quote the hypnotherapist, as to what she thinks happened (based on her discussions w/B)

«Εβλεπε να απειλειται το παιδί της, σαφώς θα φώναξε. Εψαχναν χρήματα και ρώταγαν τον Μπάμπη "Πού είναι τα χρήματα ρε;". Οι άνθρωποι κοιμόντουσαν με το παιδάκι τους και όλα έγιναν αιφνιδιαστικά. Πρέπει να τους παρακολουθούσαν και κάτι να ήξεραν. Κατά τη γνωμη μου δεν μπήκαν τυχαία μέσα»
She saw them threatening her child, (so) obviously she'd shout/scream. They were looking for money and they asked Babis "Where's the money, eh?" (These) people (B & C) were sleeping with their child and all this happened to take them by surprise/catch them off guard. Someone must have been watching them/had them under surveillance and they had to have known something (implication here "as to the money/plan to build"). In my opinion they (the alleged perpetrators) didn't enter (the maisonette) by chance.

(my translation) /end of translation

Do you see now why I'm skeptical of this hypnotherapist's account? Why her account of supposedly telling C not to talk to people about the building sounds to me like victim blaming? Who raised this issue with her? When was this issued raised? Was it emphasized in her conversations with B after C had been murdered? MOO

 

[Winterbells]

... Do you see now why I'm skeptical of this hypnotherapist's account? Why her account of supposedly telling C not to talk to people about the building sounds to me like victim blaming? Who raised this issue with her? When was this issued raised? Was it emphasized in her conversations with B after C had been murdered? MOO

(snipped by me for focus).
Yes. I completely see what you're saying.

 

[Patrick Jane]

Why couldn't it have been Babis that said something to someone about the money/plans to build? Why is C automatically to blame? Because she was a woman? Because she was young? It's convenient to shift blame onto the victim because she's not able to testify on her own behalf because she's been murdered!

No, no. I think this hypnotherapist has got it all wrong. JMO

 

[Orgona]

Anybody else notice this part in the article?

Με τον Μπάμπη έχουμε συνεχή επικοινωνία γιατί έχει να ξεπεράσει πολλά πράγματα . . . Μου έχει μιλήσει δεν θα ήθελα να μπω σε λεπτομέρειες, είναι στοιχεία που έχει η αστυνομία. Μου έχει περιγράψει τι έγινε. Δεν θα ήθελα να πω άλλα.
Babis and I are in constant communication because he's had to overcome so much . . . He's talked to me but I wouldn't want to go into details, it's evidence/information that the police have. He's described to me what happened. I wouldn't like to say any more (than that).

(my translation)

nevertheless the article goes on to quote the hypnotherapist, as to what she thinks happened (based on her discussions w/B)


«Εβλεπε να απειλειται το παιδί της, σαφώς θα φώναξε. Εψαχναν χρήματα και ρώταγαν τον Μπάμπη "Πού είναι τα χρήματα ρε;". Οι άνθρωποι κοιμόντουσαν με το παιδάκι τους και όλα έγιναν αιφνιδιαστικά. Πρέπει να τους παρακολουθούσαν και κάτι να ήξεραν. Κατά τη γνωμη μου δεν μπήκαν τυχαία μέσα»
She saw them threatening her child, (so) obviously she'd shout/scream. They were looking for money and they asked Babis "Where's the money, eh?" (These) people (B & C) were sleeping with their child and all this happened to take them by surprise/catch them off guard. Someone must have been watching them/had them under surveillance and they had to have known something (implication here "as to the money/plan to build"). In my opinion they (the alleged perpetrators) didn't enter (the maisonette) by chance.

(my translation) /end of translation

Do you see now why I'm skeptical of this hypnotherapist's account? Why her account of supposedly telling C not to talk to people about the building sounds to me like victim blaming? Who raised this issue with her? When was this issued raised? Was it emphasized in her conversations with B after C had been murdered? MOO

Thanks, this makes more sense now.

 

[Orgona]

Why couldn't it have been Babis that said something to someone about the money/plans to build? Why is C automatically to blame? Because she was a woman? Because she was young? It's convenient to shift blame onto the victim because she's not able to testify on her own behalf because she's been murdered!

No, no. I think this hypnotherapist has got it all wrong. JMO

I agree, it could have been just as likely B who was overheard somewhere talking about their plan.
The idea of CC was confiding in the wrong person could perfectly have been planted in the hypnotherapist’ mind by B.

 

[Dotta]

Why couldn't it have been Babis that said something to someone about the money/plans to build? Why is C automatically to blame? Because she was a woman? Because she was young? It's convenient to shift blame onto the victim because she's not able to testify on her own behalf because she's been murdered!

No, no. I think this hypnotherapist has got it all wrong. JMO

Besides who would C talk to about money for the new house if she was as isolated as the therapist mentioned? So what about this money? Did B buy the lot of land or not? I dont remember this bit of info. I think B was dealing with sellers of land and made transactions. Maybe C said to her neighbour that they were buying a new house. Im lost in this matter with money and house. People dont usually keep it a secret when they want to buy a new place. But then they usually keep that much money in a bank.

 

[Patrick Jane]

Besides who would C talk to about money for the new house if she was as isolated as the therapist mentioned? So what about this money? Did B buy the lot of land or not? I dont remember this bit of info. I think B was dealing with sellers of land and made transactions. Maybe C said to her neighbour that they were buying a new house. Im lost in this matter with money and house. People dont usually keep it a secret when they want to buy a new place. But then they usually keep that much money in a bank.

According to the reporting I've seen, the sale of the plot of land had already gone through, but the alleged perpetrators didn't know that (i.e. they were too late). I've also seen reports that B&C were planning to build on this plot of land. If that's the case, then where is the money for the building? It looks like it was conveniently not at the house . . . hmmm.

This whole idea put forth by B and his hypnotherapist implying that no one can talk about building or real estate transactions in Greece because it's so dangerous is absurd. Are many transactions in Greece handled in cash? Yes. But does that mean that robbers would automatically assume that the money is in someone's house? No! Maybe the money's in the bank. Maybe there's a rich uncle or family member that's paying for everything.

This scenario would have made more sense during the time of capital controls, back in 2015:

Capital controls in Greece - Wikipedia

People talk about real estate all the time in Greece. However, what people don't do is say to a stranger, "I don't trust the banks, and I keep all my money in cash at home." Or "we're gonna buy a plot a land, but I feel uncomfortable with keeping so much cash at home." That kind of information could lead to someone getting robbed/burglarized. I highly doubt that C would have been so naive to have said something like that.

It's far-fetched. I'm not buying it.

 

[Winterbells]

I agree, it could have been just as likely B who was overheard somewhere talking about their plan.
The idea of CC was confiding in the wrong person could perfectly have been planted in the hypnotherapist’ mind by B.

But didn’t the hypnotherapist say she’d warned CC not to talk about the money to people? Of course, we’ve only got her word for whatever she or CC said before she was killed.