Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, 11 May 2021 #2 *ARREST*

[everybodhi]

"fairytale" indeed :|

Yes, I also once had a fairytale romance and needed therapy to manage it.

 

[catchingdelivery]

Yes, I also once had a fairytale romance and needed therapy to manage it.

According to reports that are linked in this thread, Caroline didn't want to move to the location where the plot of land is but he bought it anyway. Not a fairytale

Society and media has a lot to answer for but that's for another thread

 

[MsBetsy]

Having followed this case since it happened I can confidently say that if you read every media report you will find numerous inconsistencies, there are also TV interviews with law enforcement, adding more inconsistencies to the written media inconsistencies.

Yes, I've read so many different accounts of what happened I'm still not sure which is true. I'm pretty sure Babis did not call his neighbor on the phone with his nose, though.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I'd like to see him do a reenactment of how he managed to do that, and under the same circumstances, tied up, only nose uncovered etc.

Yes, I've read so many different accounts of what happened I'm still not sure which is true. I'm pretty sure Babis did not call his neighbor on the phone with his nose, though.

 

[DeLu]

From the show "light in the tunnel". Nikolouli came in contact with B and released a part of their conversation.

"Mrs. Angeliki, I will tell you everything when we catch them ..."

"What can I tell you? These days I have my little one unwell and I am a little lost. I am also waiting for some development from the police. Apart from that all I do is take care of my daughter. Nothing else.."

"I'm tired of all the things they say. I keep my strength to deal only with my daughter and the research."


What he says about the robbery - carbon to his trainer, which was revealed by the "tunnel"

"Mr. Sotiris is a great man and fortunately he and his wife are fine now."

"I hope that something comes out of your research and that we are the last to suffer from these criminals."

"Anything you need in connection with the robbery to us or the connection with my trainer, I will gladly help you."

 

[DeLu]

I'd like to see him do a reenactment of how he managed to do that, and under the same circumstances, tied up, only nose uncovered etc.

Same thing is on everyone mind here in Greece. Half the country must be touching their phones with their noses..

 

[tayaway]

(SBM)
I agree.

Overkill is usually a sign of something personal, someone close to the victim, to want to inflict that kind of pain or punishment.

In thread 1 someone asked if the dog was more Caroline's pet than her husband's but there wasn't an answer. (It could be possible as Caroline likely spent a lot more time with the dog than Babis while she was at home and he was working). If the reason for the theatrical overkill of the dog was to hurt Caroline, the killer would have to have known the pet was hers, suggesting they knew each other.

Having said that... I don't know how else you'd kill a dog? I've never thought about it. Whatever the reason for doing it, it can't have been easy to hang the poor dog. (sorry if this is distressing to anyone)

Here in Canada and the US, people tend to shoot or poison dogs. Choking them out points to rage.

We've already confirmed through members' translations that Bruno, the puppy that B gave to C, was whining or whimpering, according to the neighbor. He did not bark. He was taken out of his crate and leashed He defecated all over the floor as he was dragged to the stairs. This implies that he knew his killer and that he feared him/her.

Can somebody create a thread or document that keeps track of all the points we've already confirmed/disproved? It'd be handy for newbies who join the thread and avoid rehashing so we can work on elements that crop up.

 

[tayaway]

Yes, I also once had a fairytale romance and needed therapy to manage it.

I had one as well. I've never dated since, and it's been about 16 years. You know what they say about the charmers. Run the other way.

I'd like to see him do a reenactment of how he managed to do that, and under the same circumstances, tied up, only nose uncovered etc.

Many people also wanted to see the George Floyd knee to the neck reenacted on the officer, Chauvin.

 

[everybodhi]

Ο δολοφόνος φέρεται να έκλεισε το στόμα της κοπέλας, με κομμάτια από ύφασμα, πιέζοντας τα αφόρητα και σφίγγοντάς τα προς τα μέσα με την παλάμη των χεριών του. Μάλιστα ο στυγερός εγκληματίας φέρεται να έφραξε και την μύτη της.
The murderer is reported/alleged (to have) closed the girl's mouth, with pieces of cloth, pressing them unbearably/intolerably and squeezing them inwards with the palm of his hands. The hardened criminal even reportedly/allegedly blocked/covered her nose.

(my translation) /end of translation

The paragraph right before this talks about the medical examiner's findings of suffocation. However, this excerpt qualifies its reporting twice. One in each sentence, which says "reported/alleged." Reported/alleged by whom? The medical examiner? Or is this a mash-up of media reports of what B or LE supposedly said?

And even if this report is accurate it's still consistent IMO with being suffocated while face down (e.g. suppose the murderer had one hand on the back of C's head pressing her into the pillow, and the other hand on the other side of the pillow pressing upwards).

So I'm still going with my face down theory, and the possibility that a pillow or something similar was used for two reasons:
1) LE's repeated statements that no DNA was found on her nails, and 2) B's recent statement, as reported in the media, that C was turned around and face down towards the pillow or sheet (I posted the translation of this a few days ago)

JMO

Perhaps sitting on her back, as well.
As we learned from recent deaths in police custody, if one is prone on the stomach, pressure on the back can cause “positional asphyxia”, covering the mouth and nose while in this position is a recipe for death.

“In a recent analysis of in-custody deaths, we discovered evidence that unexplained in-custody deaths are caused more often than is generally known by a little-known phenomenon called positional asphyxia… a person lying on his stomach has trouble breathing when pressure is applied to his back,” the report reads.
PRONE: Facedown and handcuffed is no way to die, yet it keeps happening over and over again

ETA: all while managing the baby who was also allegedly in the bed through the entire ordeal.

 

[DeLu]

In today's news they revealed another small part from his report to the LE. He mentioned that he never saw or heard the dog barking or anything and that he saw her (Roxy) hanging from her lease only after the police men released him. As he walked down the stairs.

 

[Patrick Jane]

(SBM)
I agree.

Overkill is usually a sign of something personal, someone close to the victim, to want to inflict that kind of pain or punishment.

In thread 1 someone asked if the dog was more Caroline's pet than her husband's but there wasn't an answer. (It could be possible as Caroline likely spent a lot more time with the dog than Babis while she was at home and he was working). If the reason for the theatrical overkill of the dog was to hurt Caroline, the killer would have to have known the pet was hers, suggesting they knew each other.

Having said that... I don't know how else you'd kill a dog? I've never thought about it. Whatever the reason for doing it, it can't have been easy to hang the poor dog. (sorry if this is distressing to anyone)

In the first "Light in the Tunnel" episode they interviewed the next door neighbor lady. The host of the show prefaced the interview by saying that the neighbor lady and C shared a common bond in their friendship, in that they were both animal lovers. (I posted this interview and my translation in the first thread).

Since C was an animal lover, therefore she loved her dog. So I'd infer that the killing of the dog would have been emotionally traumatic and devastating to C had she been alive at the time. If the dog was killed after she was murdered, then I'd say it might have been done out of a hatred and rage against C, in the vein of sending a post-mortem message of "here's what I'm going to do to your beloved dog." MOO

 

[Kemug]

If I was a man living my fairytale, but my princess said she'd had enough of it, and wanted her freedom back, I wonder how I'd react.

 

[ZoriahNZ]

What's really sad is that as soon as this story hit, my hinky meter was going off big time. No matter the outcome, there's a part of me that wishes I wasn't so jaded and cynical about such cases. It doesn't change how awful this tragedy is, poor CC is dead no matter the circumstances, but as a domestic violence survivor, it's disheartening to see another case where the happy family image may just be a facade.

Edited to add: That scenario of the husband turning up unexpectedly/unannounced to an outing with CC's female friends also happened in another ongoing case - Suzanne Morphew (whose husband has been arrested and charged with her first degree murder). JMO but it's a sign of a controlling, possessive personality.

 

[Kemug]

I am wondering if B and C ever had friends come for lunch or dinner, and if they could tell us anything about B's relationship with the dog.

 

[Patrick Jane]

In today's news they revealed another small part from his report to the LE. He mentioned that he never saw or heard the dog barking or anything and that he saw her (Roxy) hanging from her lease only after the police men released him. As he walked down the stairs.

this part also caught my attention:

after describing the money missing from the Monopoly box in the living room, B says "also in the living room we had a porcelain little plate where we'd leave on it our (wedding) rings. I presume that they stole those too."

(my translation) /end of translation

So their wedding rings, that important symbol of their love and marriage, are now missing. Hmm . . .

 

[ZoriahNZ]

I've never heard of anyone leaving their wedding rings sitting on a porcelain dish, is this a Greek tradition?

 

[everybodhi]

What's really sad is that as soon as this story hit, my hinky meter was going off big time. No matter the outcome, there's a part of me that wishes I wasn't so jaded and cynical about such cases. It doesn't change how awful this tragedy is, poor CC is dead no matter the circumstances, but as a domestic violence survivor, it's disheartening to see another case where the happy family image may just be a facade.

Edited to add: That scenario of the husband turning up unexpectedly/unannounced to an outing with CC's female friends also happened in another ongoing case - Suzanne Morphew (whose husband has been arrested and charged with her first degree murder). JMO but it's a sign of a controlling, possessive personality.

Yes, being jaded and cynical, the real twist is when it’s NOT the husband.
I’m not saying that’s what happened here, I’m just saying.
Hypothetically and generally.

 

[tayaway]

If I was a man living my fairytale, but my princess said she'd had enough of it, and wanted her freedom back, I wonder how I'd react.

Well, when my friend's sister, a doctor, had enough of her prince charming, a neurosurgeon, he strangled her, stuffed her in a suitcase, and dumped it. In this particular fairy tale, their children are being raised by their grandparents and will never see either of their parents again. Side note, she was murdered on my birthday. ETA: My comment is in reference to the concept of prince charming, not this case specifically.

 

[Patrick Jane]

I've never heard of anyone leaving their wedding rings sitting on a porcelain dish, is this a Greek tradition?

I haven't heard of it. Literally he just said "our rings" which is why I wrote it with wedding in parentheses, but, in context, I would think that it would definitely refer to wedding rings, but we can ask the other translators for their opinion on the translation, and also whether they've ever heard of someone leaving wedding rings in a little plate.

ETA: How many rings do most men have? Don't most men have only have one ring, their wedding ring? That's why I'm interpreting "our rings" broadly, to include wedding rings, even though the word βέρες (wedding rings) wasn't specifically used.

 

[Kemug]

Why would you take your wedding off ever, or even sometimes? Here in Australia, that would be quite weird I think.