Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, May 11, 2021

[Darling136]

Please can someone clarify this point in the rules:

Don’t cast shade on people who haven’t been named as suspects/POIs.

Could a POI be a witness to the crime/present when it took place even if not named as a suspect? Or do they need to have been named as a POI by the police?

Thanks

They need to be officially named as POI by police / LE in order to be able to discuss them here.

 

[Seni]

I agree. And you wouldn't need so many cameras to monitor an 11 month old baby, right?

Also, how would the alleged perps know for sure that these cameras weren't backing up to the cloud? Because if they were backing up to the cloud, then evidence of the murder is now caught on video, and cannot be erased.

I had to listen multiple times to be sure I was hearing it right. She says "cameras found in the interior space of the house" and "(it's) estimated 6-8 cameras were found inside". Maybe @caylee17799 can share her thoughts on this.

Yes agree. Doesn't make any sense. We don't know, or do we? if there were cameras outside the house. I think in initial news reports said there were.

The memory cards could have been removed earlier, the dog could have been poisoned...

 

[everybodhi]

Yes agree. Doesn't make any sense. We don't know, or do we? if there were cameras outside the house. I think in initial news reports said there were.

The memory cards could have been removed earlier, the dog could have been poisoned...

I considered in the beginning they needed to autopsy the dog, cause and time of death, and check him closely for DNA, but I don’t think they spend the funds on that kind of evidence gathering, I’ve never read of a pet autopsy in a crime.
I can imagine a Husky biting an intruder or someone who is a threat to their human but apparently this Husky bit no one, or there would have been blood evidence from the attackers left in the house, even if they had cleaned there would still be traces of blood.
Authorities seem to be saying there was minimal physical evidence left behind, despite the time spent there restraining BA and torturing CC. The theory is that the sole reason CC was killed, while BA was unharmed, was because she fought and struggled relentlessly with her killers.

Detectives had been hoping for leads from DNA samples taken at the scene and from material under Caroline's fingernails but they have described this as ''poor and disappointing".

Husband of British woman murdered in Greece is interviewed for the second time about the night she was killed in a robbery - Greek City Times

 

[jimbob5]

So burglars tie the male of the house to a chair & don't harm him-he tells them where the money was hidden. Then they randomly decide to torture & murder the wife, yet don't apparently sexually assault her-despite her being attractive & take a relatively small amount of cash & jewelry-yeah, that sounds like a hit where she was the target, not a burglary or a sex crime.

Are we really supposed to believe that with a gun held to her babies head she isn't telling them where the safe is if they had one? They were worried about her making noise so killed her, yet not about breaking in & shouting at them for an hour & both of them screaming not to hurt them or their child up to that point & savagely murder a dog-you think that dog is going quietly & make a public show of it? Her husband apparently was not physically hurt in any way. Doesn't add up.

 

[Number8]

So burglars tie the male of the house to a chair & don't harm him-he tells them where the money was hidden. Then they randomly decide to torture & murder the wife, yet don't apparently sexually assault her-despite her being attractive & take a relatively small amount of cash & jewelry-yeah, that sounds like a hit where she was the target, not a burglary or a sex crime.

Are we really supposed to believe that with a gun held to her babies head she isn't telling them where the safe is if they had one? They were worried about her making noise so killed her, yet not about breaking in & shouting at them for an hour & both of them screaming not to hurt them or their child up to that point & savagely murder a dog-you think that dog is going quietly & make a public show of it? Her husband apparently was not physically hurt in any way. Doesn't add up.

The whole thing stinks. JMO.

 

[jimbob5]

The whole thing stinks. JMO.

Yep, that the home surveillance apparently that evening wasn't working/recording is also massively suspicious.

 

[Dotta]

Ραγδαίες εξελίξεις στα Γλυκά Νερά: Σκίτσο ενός εκ των δραστών έχουν οι Αρχές - Στους 30 περιορίζονται οι ύποπτοι | in.gr It seems that police has a sketch of one of the burglars provided by B.

 

[Dotta]

Ραγδαίες εξελίξεις στα Γλυκά Νερά: Σκίτσο ενός εκ των δραστών έχουν οι Αρχές - Στους 30 περιορίζονται οι ύποπτοι | in.gr Police investigate the Georgian Mafia among the inmates in the prison of Alikarnassos.

 

[Alyce]

I considered in the beginning they needed to autopsy the dog, cause and time of death, and check him closely for DNA, but I don’t think they spend the funds on that kind of evidence gathering, I’ve never read of a pet autopsy in a crime.
I can imagine a Husky biting an intruder or someone who is a threat to their human but apparently this Husky bit no one, or there would have been blood evidence from the attackers left in the house, even if they had cleaned there would still be traces of blood.
Authorities seem to be saying there was minimal physical evidence left behind, despite the time spent there restraining BA and torturing CC. The theory is that the sole reason CC was killed, while BA was unharmed, was because she fought and struggled relentlessly with her killers.

Husband of British woman murdered in Greece is interviewed for the second time about the night she was killed in a robbery - Greek City Times

Murder of Helen Bailey (2016 ).UK.
An autopsy was carried out on her dog, Boris ( sadly inconclusive ).

I wish they had done a PM for Bruno, I think it would have been extremely helpful.

 

[Dotta]

A sketch provided by a blindfolded man, eh? I wonder what defence would think about it.

 

[Lola68]

Numerous MSM are reporting that the psychologist has provided "crucial evidence", e.g. Caroline Crouch murder: Police quiz couple's psychologist | Daily Mail Online

But B disagrees.

Νέα μαρτυρία ξετυλίγει το κουβάρι της δολοφονίας της Καρολάιν - Τα καυτά ερωτήματα και η αντίδραση του πιλότου | in.gr
Speaking on the show "Light in the Tunnel", the 32-year-old seemed particularly annoyed by the report to the psychologist that his wife was visiting.

In a communication he had with Angeliki Nikolouli, among other things, he stated: "I really do not know who thought that the psychologist we went to after my wife gave birth had anything to do with the robbery. I have heard speculations and speculations, but that our psychologist will help to find the perpetrators, is by far the most invalid ".

 

[Lola68]

Νέα μαρτυρία ξετυλίγει το κουβάρι της δολοφονίας της Καρολάιν - Τα καυτά ερωτήματα και η αντίδραση του πιλότου | in.gr

This article also says the police are looking for a motorbike and a car

 

[Lola68]

Light In The Tunnel - Wikipedia.

Interesting point about the format of the show and why people go on it

 

[Dotta]

Light In The Tunnel - Wikipedia.

Interesting point about the format of the show and why people go on it

As far as I remember in this programme was also shown a dark car which arrived in vicinity of the house at 3.30 am and left at 5.20. (cctv) Also the same car was parked close to the house another day during the day. I saw the pics from the show.

 

[tayaway]

According to the Tunnel's website, it appears that the perps did a middle of the night test run a few days before. I imagine they cover this in the actual show, but I've only watched the black car segment, don't speak Greek, and couldn't access subtitles.

"Residents of the area talk to “Tunnel” about strange movements a few days before the heinous crime in the maisonette in Glyka Nera.

“I was listening to a motorbike the previous days, which was standing for a few seconds at the corner of Parodos with Panagouli street. They drove around the block, returned and left. It gave me the impression that it was a big one. I did not see anything, I was just listening, because it was late, around two in the middle of the night”, said a resident of the area.
...
Another witness, who lives near the house of the tragic couple, spoke on the show about what had happened a few days earlier.

“We were also targeted. The bell rang twice at four o’clock in the morning. They were plowing the area fifteen to twenty days earlier. Someone would come and look on a bike, going slowly and wearing a jacket hood so that his features would not be visible.”"

 

[Winterbells]

According to the Tunnel's website, it appears that the perps did a middle of the night test run a few days before. I imagine they cover this in the actual show, but I've only watched the black car segment, don't speak Greek, and couldn't access subtitles.

"Residents of the area talk to “Tunnel” about strange movements a few days before the heinous crime in the maisonette in Glyka Nera.

“I was listening to a motorbike the previous days, which was standing for a few seconds at the corner of Parodos with Panagouli street. They drove around the block, returned and left. It gave me the impression that it was a big one. I did not see anything, I was just listening, because it was late, around two in the middle of the night”, said a resident of the area.
...
Another witness, who lives near the house of the tragic couple, spoke on the show about what had happened a few days earlier.

“We were also targeted. The bell rang twice at four o’clock in the morning. They were plowing the area fifteen to twenty days earlier. Someone would come and look on a bike, going slowly and wearing a jacket hood so that his features would not be visible.”"

A gang of robbers who prefer to ring the bell and get inside whilst the owners are home?
Seems an unusual routine to me.

 

[tayaway]

A gang of robbers who prefer to ring the bell and get inside whilst the owners are home?
Seems an unusual routine to me.

Maybe when they ring the bell, they're seeing if anybody is home? Here, small time robbers will knock/ring the bell during the daytime to see if anybody's home before they break in and steal small things.

 

[Dotta]

Georgian mafia men may also be hired debt collectors, right? MOO

 

[Lola68]

Maybe when they ring the bell, they're seeing if anybody is home? Here, small time robbers will knock/ring the bell during the daytime to see if anybody's home before they break in and steal small things.

These weren't exactly petty criminals though. And why didn't they break in to the house after ringing the doorbell twice? Because the residents indicated they were home? (the people who said someone rang the doorbell twice at 4am a few days previously)

If we follow that logic, they rang the doorbell of B and C's house and they didn't answer (because they were asleep in the attic), so the burglars thought the house was empty and broke in. Although surely the dog would have barked if the doorbell rang?

(not saying this didn't happen, just trying to follow through different scenarios)

 

[Lola68]

Is it a particularly wealthy area where residents would be likely to have safes/expensive jewellry? That would make it more plausible that the sightings were a gang casing out the properties vs inside job where B and C were targeted