Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, May 11, 2021

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  • #481
So it seems I'm not alone in thinking that the possibilities for CC's therapist to have anything of value to offer, concern CC's relationship issues/stuff about B's lifestyle etc.
Ha ha - You might be absolutely right:) But... Why would they even mention this person? I guess the police interviewed dozens of people, and yet... Do we know about them? So, the attack might be random or it might be orchestrated. Who knows? But all possibilites MUST be checked. Being dismissive about anything or anyone (witness) might prove disastrous. Tunnel vision (only random attack) is a sin for detectives. A sin that may cost the lives of future victims. Yorkshire Ripper and others come to mind.
 
  • #482
Am I understanding the story from the police is more or less as follows thus far:
No cctv evidence -Correct
No witness evidence- Other than B's, no.
No forensic evidence- Supposedly there is "minimal", that hasn't provided any breakthroughs to the case so far
No sign of CC struggling- Correct
B's hands were taped in front (not behind his back)-Correct
Unclear which door 'gang' exited-Supposedly the main door, although I think that's just an assumption. I could be wrong.
No links to Georgian man so far-Correct
 
  • #483
No need to apologize! It's just that her parents lived away, and were quite old when they had her. Also, It's possible that she felt that her friends and her didn't share the same experiences, for her to receive any helpful advice from them. Here, it's highly unlikely you'll find many 20-year olds being married with children. People of that age are even being treated as children (I'm a little older than her, and I know that as a fact!). So all that could lead her to seek help/advice from a therapist, and good for her if she felt that it was necessary.
I completely agree. But I can't imagine how the contents of sessions which were focussed on the matters you describe could be of any possible interest to the police.
 
  • #484
Thanks @caylee17799
And thanks so much for all your hard work translating for us non-Greek speakers!
 
  • #485
I'm confused about the exit route of the 'gang'.
B says front door, but didn't police say same way they entered?
Not that I've grasped how they entered.
Was it a rear window left open or was a window frame removed in its entirety or was it a window who's frame fell out, or was it the front door? How could it be the front door?
Plus something about an empty lot next door.
I think I need to lie down.
 
  • #486
I completely agree. But I can't imagine how the contents of sessions which were focussed on the matters you describe could be of any possible interest to the police.
Well, if, as another poster pointed out, she had marital problems, and told her therapist about them, it could give the police some ground to investigate B, possible reasons to want his wife dead etc. The police reporter yesterday said that her testimony "added another dimension to the case", which, combined with all those questions that are puzzling the authorities <modsnip>
B says front door, but didn't police say same way they entered?
The first officers at the scene entered the house the same way the robbers did, because the front door was locked/could not be opened from the outside. I don't think I've read anywhere about the robbers exiting the same way they entered.
Was it a rear window left open or was a window frame removed in its entirety or was it a window who's frame fell out,
It was supposedly a rear window, whose blind was open, so the "only" thing they had to do was remove the entire window (glass+frame), and enter from there. Apparently, while they were doing that, the glass fell from a height of 1.5 m to the floor (of the basement, I suppose), but did not break.
Plus something about an empty lot next door.
There was an empty lot next door, that provided them with easy access to the house.
Thanks @caylee17799
And thanks so much for all your hard work translating for us non-Greek speakers!
I'm glad me and Patrick are able to help!
 
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  • #487
Well, if, as another poster pointed out, she had marital problems, and told her therapist about them, it could give the police some ground to investigate B, possible reasons to want his wife dead etc. The police reporter yesterday said that her testimony "added another dimension to the case", which, combined with all those questions that are puzzling the authorities, leads me to believe that the police is already a little suspicious of him. Again, MOO.

The first officers at the scene entered the house the same way the robbers did, because the front door was locked/could not be opened from the outside. I don't think I've read anywhere about the robbers exiting the same way they entered.

It was supposedly a rear window, whose blind was open, so the "only" thing they had to do was remove the entire window (glass+frame), and enter from there. Apparently, while they were doing that, the glass fell from a height of 1.5 m to the floor (of the basement, I suppose), but did not break.

There was an empty lot next door, that provided them with easy access to the house.

I'm glad me and Patrick are able to help!
Thank you again, @caylee17799.
All I meant about the therapist, was that if CC was talking about the kinds of things you outlined (feeling isolated, unsupported, etc) then that doesn't necessarily indicate marital problems. However, I completely agree that if CC was discussing marital issues then the therapist may well have some very useful info for the police, and given that the police are speaking with the therapist, my thoughts are leading in that direction (issues with husband).
 
  • #488
A 43-year-old man from Georgia has denied involvement in the brutal murder of Caroline Crouch

This is the first picture of a man arrested after a British mum was strangled to death in front of her baby.

The suspect, from Georgia, was led into a courthouse for a hearing that was closed to the public, a week after the brutal killing of 20-year-old Caroline Crouch in Greece.



Man arrested after Brit mum murdered in front of baby during burglary pictured
 
  • #489
No need to apologize! It's just that her parents lived away, and were quite old when they had her. Also, It's possible that she felt that her friends and her didn't share the same experiences, for her to receive any helpful advice from them. Here, it's highly unlikely you'll find many 20-year olds being married with children. People of that age are even being treated as children (I'm a little older than her, and I know that as a fact!). So all that could lead her to seek help/advice from a therapist, and good for her if she felt that it was necessary.

I’m not so sure. Therapy is often expensive, emotionally uncomfortable and time-consuming. Recently married and with a young child, CC should have been having the time of her life. I realise that’s not always the case, and post-partum depression can be very serious, but I still find the fact she was having therapy quite curious.
 
  • #490
Given respiratory/oxygen physiology is my bread and butter (I'm an anaesthetist/intensive care doctor) and rely on ventilators and supplementary oxygen, the oxygen you require is completely dependent on a) how much you are using - being anxious/engaging skeletal muscle for fight or flight/increased heart rate etc and even pain can increase oxygen requirements many times over - you need a flow rate that provides 250ml a minute at rest for average 70kg male. It can be more than this of course that is required.

it might be difficult to obtain this purely via a nose - many of us naturally have deviated septums etc - then a struggling person would go limp, their muscles slacken, and oxygen consumption reduce, meaning it became an adequate flow rate again.

the other issue at hand is actually CO2 retention. If carbon dioxide cannot adequately be breathed out and exhaled it will accumulate and make you drowsy. Very drowsy. Almost dead looking :) this would be the issue with small spaces/insufficient fresh air and masked faces if the material is not porous (duct tape is not, filter masks are!). This i personally find a more physiologically valid reason for transient loss of consciousness.

the third medical reason is a state of traumatic fugue. It genuinely is a thing for trauma to eradicate the way the part of the brain responsible for transferring working/real time memory into storage. In high stress/cortisol/adrenaline the hippocampus which usually gives us a what/when/where context to emotional recall of an event just stalls leaving only emotion and no explicit ability to recall anything but fear and how we felt. That's the amygdala. I once met a man who saw his wife get murdered in Iraq, and he has forgotten who he and the rest of his family were. Even his twin brother. Twenty years later still no idea. Not faking it, his brain simply didn't even light up in the right areas of the functional MRI scannner when shown familiar faces/photos of his old life, unlike nurses he knew in the present.

i am growing increasingly suspicious again of the husband as you all say. The therapist wouldn't be relevant to random break in, unless she knew a third party knew about the money. I think they were having issues. Post natal depression can be incredibly serious and psychotherapy is the most evidence based intervention for mental health - GPs can only medicate not give psychotherapy, and the medications don't have the same wealth of success.

So yes, the transient hypoxia thing doesn't make a huge amount of sense, but also could be true physiologically (I've seen patients go hypoxic and drowsy just from shivering - you can measure oxygen consumption if they're on a ventilator, and it really does go up in high arousal states!)

Very good question. I've been skeptical of this "30 minute loss of consciousness due to hypoxia" as well. If his oxygen supply was completely cut off for 30 minutes, he wouldn't just lose consciousness, but probably suffer irreversible brain damage as well (which was almost certainly the case of the Helios 522 victims that are referenced). In our case, maybe he retained the ability to breathe (honestly, I can't see him doing that, if his face/mouth was taped as described), but most likely, he would need some sort of supplementary oxygen to regain consciousness.
(I am not an expert, but I'm studying medicine. Still, the above are considered MOO, based on what I've been taught so far.)
So, apparently, that "mysterious private citizen" we heard about yesterday, was the therapist, right?
 
  • #491
Given respiratory/oxygen physiology is my bread and butter (I'm an anaesthetist/intensive care doctor) and rely on ventilators and supplementary oxygen, the oxygen you require is completely dependent on a) how much you are using - being anxious/engaging skeletal muscle for fight or flight/increased heart rate etc and even pain can increase oxygen requirements many times over - you need a flow rate that provides 250ml a minute at rest for average 70kg male. It can be more than this of course that is required.

it might be difficult to obtain this purely via a nose - many of us naturally have deviated septums etc - then a struggling person would go limp, their muscles slacken, and oxygen consumption reduce, meaning it became an adequate flow rate again.

the other issue at hand is actually CO2 retention. If carbon dioxide cannot adequately be breathed out and exhaled it will accumulate and make you drowsy. Very drowsy. Almost dead looking :) this would be the issue with small spaces/insufficient fresh air and masked faces if the material is not porous (duct tape is not, filter masks are!). This i personally find a more physiologically valid reason for transient loss of consciousness.

the third medical reason is a state of traumatic fugue. It genuinely is a thing for trauma to eradicate the way the part of the brain responsible for transferring working/real time memory into storage. In high stress/cortisol/adrenaline the hippocampus which usually gives us a what/when/where context to emotional recall of an event just stalls leaving only emotion and no explicit ability to recall anything but fear and how we felt. That's the amygdala. I once met a man who saw his wife get murdered in Iraq, and he has forgotten who he and the rest of his family were. Even his twin brother. Twenty years later still no idea. Not faking it, his brain simply didn't even light up in the right areas of the functional MRI scannner when shown familiar faces/photos of his old life, unlike nurses he knew in the present.

i am growing increasingly suspicious again of the husband as you all say. The therapist wouldn't be relevant to random break in, unless she knew a third party knew about the money. I think they were having issues. Post natal depression can be incredibly serious and psychotherapy is the most evidence based intervention for mental health - GPs can only medicate not give psychotherapy, and the medications don't have the same wealth of success.

So yes, the transient hypoxia thing doesn't make a huge amount of sense, but also could be true physiologically (I've seen patients go hypoxic and drowsy just from shivering - you can measure oxygen consumption if they're on a ventilator, and it really does go up in high arousal states!)
First of all, thank you for your extremely informative post! I would say that, if we suppose B's version of events is true, then transient hypoxia does makes sense, considering the circumstances you pointed out (head covered in duct tape, him being in distress/scared, as well as trying to resist, which means increased oxygen requirements, failure to properly exhale CO2 etc). However, what's been puzzling me, as well as the authorities, as it seems, is that, apparently, he was in such a bad condition that he lost consciousness for 30 minutes straight, but then, without any intervention, such as someone removing the tape from his face, or providing him with supplementary oxygen, he just.. regained consciousness. On his own. And not only that, but he was able to remember that his cellphone was charging on the nightstand, then crawl till there, throw it on the floor, turn on the screen and call 100 by using his nose. Combined with other details from his statement, this all sounds like like a poorly-written CSI episode script.
 
  • #492
No need to apologize! It's just that her parents lived away, and were quite old when they had her. Also, It's possible that she felt that her friends and her didn't share the same experiences, for her to receive any helpful advice from them. Here, it's highly unlikely you'll find many 20-year olds being married with children. People of that age are even being treated as children (I'm a little older than her, and I know that as a fact!). So all that could lead her to seek help/advice from a therapist, and good for her if she felt that it was necessary.

<modsnip>

Her FB page appears like a normal teen, hanging out with friends, doing the kick boxing things, and then suddenly, in 2017 (the year B saw her and immediately 'fell in love at first sight', there are no more photos, or posts. Did she keep in touch with her best friend or her other friends, and her kickboxing teammates, or did she, as a 16 year old, become cut off from all that upon getting serious with B?

Could be nothing, but I imagine the LE are exploring all avenues, ya?
 
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  • #493
  • #494
I am thinking that the therapist came forward of her own accord - right? So I think she must have thought that she had some important information.
 
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  • #495
First of all, thank you for your extremely informative post! I would say that, if we suppose B's version of events is true, then transient hypoxia does makes sense, considering the circumstances you pointed out (head covered in duct tape, him being in distress/scared, as well as trying to resist, which means increased oxygen requirements, failure to properly exhale CO2 etc). However, what's been puzzling me, as well as the authorities, as it seems, is that, apparently, he was in such a bad condition that he lost consciousness for 30 minutes straight, but then, without any intervention, such as someone removing the tape from his face, or providing him with supplementary oxygen, he just.. regained consciousness. On his own. And not only that, but he was able to remember that his cellphone was charging on the nightstand, then crawl till there, throw it on the floor, turn on the screen and call 100 by using his nose. Combined with other details from his statement, this all sounds like like a poorly-written CSI episode script.


Agree to all, how would he know how long he passed out?
 
  • #496
<modsnip>

Her FB page appears like a normal teen, hanging out with friends, doing the kick boxing things, and then suddenly, in 2017 (the year B saw her and immediately 'fell in love at first sight', there are no more photos, or posts. Did she keep in touch with her best friend or her other friends, and her kickboxing teammates, or did she, as a 16 year old, become cut off from all that upon getting serious with B?

Could be nothing, but I imagine the LE are exploring all avenues, ya?


You make good points about friends etc.

Obviously a factor that drew atention to this is case is the the "goodlooking factor" . We have only beautiful pictures, who knows if anything less happy was happening behind closed doors?

Seems to me that the first press releases came in a bit of a rush.
 
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  • #497
  • #498
  • #499
Do you have any stats that back your claim women are attracted to men of a certain age, depending on how old their parents are?

She wasn't a woman when B 'fell in love' with her, she was a girl, a minor in high school, still a few years away from legal consent (18 in Greece).

ETA: World stats indicate that women in Europe are on average 2 years younger than their male partners, so the theory that women like much older men for stability is wrong.
I married at 18 .. separated at 19.... divorced by 21...I do see many women married to men 20-30-40 their senior. Romance is overrated
 
  • #500
I married at 18 .. separated at 19.... divorced by 21...I do see many women married to men 20-30-40 their senior. Romance is overrated

Anecdotal generalizations about 'many women' does not equal evidence for the argument. How is romance relevant? What's the point of mentioning your own age but not your male partner?
 
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