Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, May 11, 2021

[Tortoise]

Translation by google

"At the same time, he pointed out that it is contradictory that the perpetrators tied the 32-year-old with a string that they found inside the house, while they closed his mouth with insulating tape that they also found in the area, while the woman was tied with a dress."

Εγκλημα στα Γλυκά Νερά: «Είμαστε κοντά σε εξιχνίαση» – Ερωτήματα και αντιφατικά στοιχεία | ΤΑ ΝΕΑ

Confirmation that all materials used in the crime came from the house.

 

[Angleterre]

This is another detail from early reports that changed; it wasn’t a balaclava, it was a neck gaiter.
View attachment 298618

Ah ok a neck gaiter
Can easily slip but I am surprised they wore a neck gaiter for a job like this ?

 

[Dotta]

A better translation is that they're "close to a solution (to the mystery/case)"

Good I was a bit worried when I read the post about closing the investigation. For me they are just starting haha

 

[Angleterre]

Yes, Lambropoulos mentions this natural instinct to struggle against suffocation.

Which is why I'm wondering/speculating whether the lack of DNA on her nails means that she wasn't suffocated while face up, but rather with face down.

My understanding of the media report about suffocation was that suffocation occurred via a cloth or a cloth-like material, which JMO is consistent with a pillow. I don't remember anything about something being in her mouth, but I could be wrong. I read it as her airway being obstructed by the cloth-like material. But I'd have to read the original source in Greek to have a better understanding.

If the victim was asleep, and the murderer straddled her, grabbed the back of her head, and forced it down into the pillow, I don't see how there would be evidence of a struggle, except perhaps in her hair. Maybe LE have evidence of something like this, but are, of course, not disclosing it.

/speculation

Even if face down she would be thrashing around like a wild tiger
With her baby next to her and she didn’t move hmmmm

 

[everybodhi]

Ah ok a neck gaiter
Can easily slip but I am surprised they wore a neck gaiter for a job like this ?

Only the one who killed his wife wore this, who he saw the face through a secret peephole in the tape, the other two had on full balaclavas.

 

[Dotta]

Even if face down she would be thrashing around like a wild tiger
With her baby next to her and she didn’t move hmmmm

Even covered by the duvet and sb straddling her? Aha and asleep?

 

[Tortoise]

Even covered by the duvet and sb straddling her? Aha and asleep?

I don't think sleeping is accurate, she was said to be shouting for them not to harm her baby, and being interrogated about the money.

 

[Angleterre]

Even covered by the duvet and sb straddling her? Aha and asleep?

I’m not sure if you are being facetious but just in case you’re not then when straddled it’s usually the bottom that the perpetrator sits on to hold down the victim so she would still be thrashing around
A duvet generally isn’t tucked in and so her legs could still thrash around
When fighting for life it’s amazing what the body can do
Also the post mortem should be able to tell from the pittichie present in the eyes and the number of them and the depth , as to if she was suffocated face down because they are responsive to the oxygen supply being cut off and there is some kind of science that can help to diagnose what kind of suffocation and strangulation
Plus there will be evidence on the pillow

 

[Patrick Jane]

Even if face down she would be thrashing around like a wild tiger
With her baby next to her and she didn’t move hmmmm

We know that the baby was there next to her when LE arrived at 6:20am.
We do not know that the baby was there when she died at 4:20-4:30am.

 

[Angleterre]

Only the one who killed his wife wore this, who he saw the face through a secret peephole in the tape, the other two had on full balaclavas.

Even more strange then that he who did the deed was not wearing a full face balaclava

 

[Angleterre]

We know that the baby was there next to her when LE arrived at 6:20am.
We do not know that the baby was there when she died at 4:20-4:30am.

I thought in one of the translations it said that the baby was next to her from when they entered because the baby wasn’t in the cot and she was shouting not to hurt her baby
I’m
Confused

 

[Dotta]

I’m not sure if you are being facetious but just in case you’re not then when straddled it’s usually the bottom that the perpetrator sits on to hold down the victim so she would still be thrashing around
A duvet generally isn’t tucked in and so her legs could still thrash around
When fighting for life it’s amazing what the body can do
Also the post mortem should be able to tell from the pittichie present in the eyes and the number of them and the depth , as to if she was suffocated face down because they are responsive to the oxygen supply being cut off and there is some kind of science that can help to diagnose what kind of suffocation and strangulation
Plus there will be evidence on the pillow

Thank you very much for explanation. It is sth I know nothing about. I just thought a duvet might be a kind of binding immobilising arms. But you are right about the legs trashing and evidence on the pillow.

 

[Patrick Jane]

I thought in one of the translations it said that the baby was next to her from when they entered because the baby wasn’t in the cot and she was shouting not to hurt her baby
I’m
Confused

We need to separate out statements from LE and statements from the husband.

Statements from multiple LE say that when they arrived the baby was next to the deceased mother nudging/prodding her to wake up. This was such a shocking scene that one veteran LE was sobbing when describing it.

All other statements you'd be referring to would be statements from the husband as to what occurred. And we'd have to find this source so that we understand better what you're referring to.

 

[Dotta]

I don't think sleeping is accurate, she was said to be shouting for them not to harm her baby, and being interrogated about the money.

So they say. Did the neighbour hear the screaming? She heard dog barking and thought it was fighting with cats. Not a word about human shouts.

 

[everybodhi]

I’m not sure if you are being facetious but just in case you’re not then when straddled it’s usually the bottom that the perpetrator sits on to hold down the victim so she would still be thrashing around
A duvet generally isn’t tucked in and so her legs could still thrash around
When fighting for life it’s amazing what the body can do
Also the post mortem should be able to tell from the pittichie present in the eyes and the number of them and the depth , as to if she was suffocated face down because they are responsive to the oxygen supply being cut off and there is some kind of science that can help to diagnose what kind of suffocation and strangulation
Plus there will be evidence on the pillow

“Mr Hasiotis [chief of the homicide department, who is leading the investigation] said that findings from the investigation showed that Crouch, an avid athlete and kick boxer, initially moved to resist her attackers.”

“An autopsy report from a state coroner on Wednesday said “no struggle appeared have ensued between the victim and her assailants. “There were no bruises or signs that she may have struggled with them.”

Young British woman strangled to death in front of child during Athens burglary.

 

[Dotta]

“Mr Hasiotis [chief of the homicide department, who is leading the investigation] said that findings from the investigation showed that Crouch, an avid athlete and kick boxer, initially moved to resist her attackers.”

“An autopsy report from a state coroner on Wednesday said “no struggle appeared have ensued between the victim and her assailants. “There were no bruises or signs that she may have struggled with them.”

Young British woman strangled to death in front of child during Athens burglary.

That's what I mean - no struggle. Thats why I think she was attacked while asleep. Speculating of course because reports are conflicting.

 

[Tortoise]

So they say. Did the neighbour hear the screaming? She heard dog barking and thought it was fighting with cats. Not a word about human shouts.

Well we are discussing the crime that was reported.

Leaving my own thoughts out of this, and what I think happened, I would just repeat the well known phrase 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'. In other words, just because no one heard the shouts doesn't mean no one shouted. We don't know the neighbour's room location in relation to the ground floor stairwell where the dog was hanged and whether that created an echo effect, and her location in relation to their attic bedroom.

 

[Dotta]

Well we are discussing the crime that was reported.

Leaving my own thoughts out of this, and what I think happened, I would just repeat the well known phrase 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'. In other words, just because no one heard the shouts doesn't mean no one shouted. We don't know the neighbour's room location in relation to the ground floor stairwell where the dog was hanged and whether that created an echo effect, and her location in relation to their attic bedroom.

Of course. Im just thinking about every possibility. But Im not LE and havent got a clue what evidence they have got. I think I will just wait patiently for the solution the police announced. I pray for justice for Caroline.

 

[everybodhi]

Well we are discussing the crime that was reported.

Leaving my own thoughts out of this, and what I think happened, I would just repeat the well known phrase 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'. In other words, just because no one heard the shouts doesn't mean no one shouted. We don't know the neighbour's room location in relation to the ground floor stairwell where the dog was hanged and whether that created an echo effect, and her location in relation to their attic bedroom.

While the front of the two homes are only divided by a wall, the back is divided by a courtyard and the attic bedroom has a large air conditioning unit mounted outside the wall.


Daughter of Briton murdered in Greece 'was trying to wake her up'

edited to add site linking to photo

 

[Dotta]

But shouts carry and are heard especially at night and early morning. The twin building is very close.