Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, May 11, 2021

[Dotta]

Latest news from police and... ANOTHER twist.
Gypsy (Roma) community connection to the crime - burglary and murder.

 

[everybodhi]

@everybodhi I think you'll find you asked me a question about my post in which I said we don't know where the time of death came from. You said it came from the police officer K, then asked me where I think it came from.
I know it came from police officer K, but I am noting that K, for some reason, doesn't want to reveal the source of that information
No intelligent, logical, rational thinking person would wish for the case to be tried before the press, nor expect the police to reveal all the evidence they have collected. But as someone who is also curious to know what really happened to CC, and indeed when it really happened, I find what absolute facts the police aren't willing to reveal, just as noteworthy as those that they are.

Yes, that’s true about what’s not revealed, we’ve heard nothing more about CC and AB’s therapist either, I wonder what that’s all about. It seems highly unusual for a therapist to come forward.
And the police brought in another psychologist to interview BA as well.
It’s always hard to be patient when we only gets bits and pieces from any investigation, trials are where all the evidence is publicly exposed, and sometimes we get to read an arrest affidavit or search warrant.

“Officers said the therapist provided 'crucial' evidence, as they continue to hunt for the killer of 20-year-old Caroline Crouch, who was strangled to death in front of her 11-month-old daughter at her home near Athens on May 11.”
“Police say the psychologist was treating Caroline for post-natal depression, and was separately providing treatment to husband Charalambos 'Babis' Anagnostopoulos, 33, for an unknown condition.”
Caroline Crouch murder: Police quiz couple's psychologist

“He has also been interviewed by a psychologist after detectives struggled to get a breakthrough in the investigation.”
“An Athens police source said: “The psychologist will try and find out from him who else knew about the money. We want to illuminate some spots which have proved elusive.”
Brit murder victim Caroline Crouch’s husband quizzed again by Greek cops

eta, I should have been more clear with my question about where the time of death came from, it’s established it came from K but I meant, where do you think K got the TOD?

 

[Winterbells]

Yes, that’s true, we’ve heard nothing more about CC and AB’s therapist either, I wonder what that’s all about. It seems highly unusual for a therapist to come forward.
And the police brought in another psychologist to interview BA as well.
It’s always hard to be patient when we only gets bits and pieces from any investigation, trials are where all the evidence is publicly exposed, and sometimes we get to read an arrest affidavit or search warrant.

“Officers said the therapist provided 'crucial' evidence, as they continue to hunt for the killer of 20-year-old Caroline Crouch, who was strangled to death in front of her 11-month-old daughter at her home near Athens on May 11.”
“Police say the psychologist was treating Caroline for post-natal depression, and was separately providing treatment to husband Charalambos 'Babis' Anagnostopoulos, 33, for an unknown condition.”
Caroline Crouch murder: Police quiz couple's psychologist

“He has also been interviewed by a psychologist after detectives struggled to get a breakthrough in the investigation.”
“An Athens police source said: “The psychologist will try and find out from him who else knew about the money. We want to illuminate some spots which have proved elusive.”
Brit murder victim Caroline Crouch’s husband quizzed again by Greek cops

eta, I should have been more clear with my question about where the time of death came from, it’s established it came from K but I meant, where do you think K got the TOD?

Completely agree, although patience is something we're all used to here on Websleuths, right?
Plus, some press report or other which was linked here somewhere, said that B attended CC's therapy sessions, which suprised me. Unless in couples counselling, it's really not normal practice to have someone present in the therapy room other than the therapist and their client.

 

[tayaway]

re: the dog, the word used was cries* not barking

*κλάμα: cry, weeping, tears (when in reference to a human)

Ok, Bruno was whimpering. That's a crucial piece of info. Normally, when strangers enters a dog's property and pose a threat, barking starts, to warn off the trespasser and let them know they'll bite. Whimpering loud enough for the neighbor to hear? Was he roughly dragged out of his cage, on the way to his death, by somebody he knew? If a necropsy was done on him, would they find bruises and broken ribs, from a beating that took place between his cage and the staircase bannister?

No comment

I actually came to the thread waiting for Dotta to post this non comment

 

[Patrick Jane]

Latest news from police and... ANOTHER twist.
Gypsy (Roma) community connection to the crime - burglary and murder.

No, that's not been confirmed by LE, and is speculation by the media.

This is another interview with K where he mostly repeats everything that he's already mentioned in his previous interviews.
When he starts describing the uniqueness of the silver colored revolver, and how's it unsuitable for robbery purposes as you're limited to six shots, and how it would only be for a gun collector/enthusiast, then the TV newswoman jumps in to interrupt him at 5:42 and says does this mean that they were a gang of Roma? Georgian mafia? Albanians? Because we've heard (rumors). Then K says "I'll give you my opinion," and then the TV newsman jumps in and interrupts him and says, "I get it, you have something you (can) say, but there is more in mind that you can't say," then continues to cut K off, and finally says to K, "I hope you're close (to a solution)", and K says "I think we're close to a solution to the crime."

IMO K handled himself well, but the behavior of the newsman and the newswoman on this channel who repeatedly interrupted K and left the audience, at the close of the interview, with the impression of these rumors, without giving K a chance to respond, was pathetic.

 

[Dotta]

I actually came to the thread waiting for Dotta to post this non comment [/QUOTE]
HA Ha You know me so well Seriously, I should practise biting my tongue before I speak!

 

[Patrick Jane]

one new detail from K in this latest interview worth noting and translating:

3:12 K says that the husband, once he was unbound by LE, asked LE, "Is my wife dead?"

 

[Dotta]

No, that's not been confirmed by LE, and is speculation by the media.

This is another interview with K where he mostly repeats everything that he's already mentioned in his previous interviews.
When he starts describing the uniqueness of the silver colored revolver, and how's it unsuitable for robbery purposes as you're limited to six shots, and how it would only be for a gun collector/enthusiast, then the TV newswoman jumps in to interrupt him at 5:42 and says does this mean that they were a gang of Roma? Georgian mafia? Albanians? Because we've heard (rumors). Then K says "I'll give you my opinion," and then the TV newsman jumps in and interrupts him and says, "I get it, you have something you (can) say, but there is more in mind that you can't say," then continues to cut K off, and finally says to K, "I hope you're close (to a solution)", and K says "I think we're close to a solution to the crime."

IMO K handled himself well, but the behavior of the newsman and the newswoman on this channel who repeatedly interrupted K and left the audience, at the close of the interview, with the impression of these rumors, without giving K a chance to respond, was pathetic.

Thank you for explaining this. My head is spinning with all these mafias:Georgian, Roma, Albanian, Greek etc. Im surprised they didn't throw Russians into the mix.

 

[Patrick Jane]

3:20 K then says there are many questions . . . he says the neighbor lady in the next door house heard the dog at "around 4:20"*, but heard nothing else. The newsman jumps in "nothing else, nothing else." K confirms.

*this confirms the interview from "Light in the Tunnel", however, the time that was noted on that program was 4:30 a.m. This time of 4:30 was mentioned by the host of the program after the conclusion of the interview, but wasn't mentioned in the interview with the neighbor, at least in the segment which was aired for TV.

 

[Lola68]

It's no good when police say too much in the media - I'm really against it. K is an official and not in the investigating team I guess. Police officers shouldn't be treated like media stars. Better stay in shadows and investigate diligently.

Sometimes it's a deliberate tactic though - I can think of other examples

 

[Patrick Jane]

Ok, Bruno was whimpering. That's a crucial piece of info. Normally, when strangers enters a dog's property and pose a threat, barking starts, to warn off the trespasser and let them know they'll bite. Whimpering loud enough for the neighbor to hear? Was he roughly dragged out of his cage, on the way to his death, by somebody he knew? If a necropsy was done on him, would they find bruises and broken ribs, from a beating that took place between his cage and the staircase bannister?



I actually came to the thread waiting for Dotta to post this non comment

In today's media interview K describes the neighbor's description of the dog as γρυλίσματα, which means grunting, growling, snarling

 

[Dotta]

Sometimes it's a deliberate tactic though - I can think of other examples

Sure, I understand. But... Silence is golden, especially concerning LE. Take this Roma community mentioned by K. Is it fair to allude their connection to this horrid crime? Is there any evidence? A silly silver colt is the indication of their guilt? It might start hate towards this community! There are some Roma people in my country but I never heard about violent crimes commited by them. They keep mostly to themselves and are generally non violent. Police must be cautious while talking about minorities and their unproven crimes. Besides, the time of death of Caroline should NEVER be disclosed except in court. It is my opinion.

 

[Patrick Jane]

Sure, I understand. But... Silence is golden, especially concerning LE. Take this Roma community mentioned by K. Is it fair to allude their connection to this horrid crime? Is there any evidence? A silly silver colt is the indication of their guilt? It might start hate towards this community! There are some Roma people in my country but I never heard about violent crimes commited by them. They keep mostly to themselves and are generally non violent. Police must be cautious while talking about minorities and their unproven crimes. Besides, the time of death of Caroline should NEVER be disclosed except in court. It is my opinion.

Once again, Roma wasn't mentioned by K, it was mentioned by the newswoman, and K wasn't given a chance to respond.

Please don't put words (that they didn't say) into the mouth of LE .

 

[Dotta]

Once again, Roma wasn't mentioned by K, it was mentioned by the newswoman, and K wasn't given a chance to respond.

Please don't put words into the mouth of LE that they didn't say.

Ok, but K was present in this interview and, as you say, didn't contradict (or didn't have a chance to contradict) this allegation. Police mustn't put themselves in the situation where they are browbeaten by aggressive reporters. It isnt a pretty picture - they are law enforcement after all.

 

[Patrick Jane]

Ok, but K was present in this interview and, as you say, didn't contradict (or didn't have a chance to contradict) this allegation. Police mustn't put themselves in the situation where they are browbeaten by aggressive reporters. It isnt a pretty picture - they are law enforcement after all.

You're right. I listened to it again, and K didn't use the word Roma, but he did use the word "gypsy" in the context of prodding from the newsman and newswoman as to who would be the type of person that would be a gun collector/enthusiast, to display a silver revolver on social media, in the hypothetical that he was describing. They jumped on that, and in my opinion didn't give him a chance to clarify that he was speaking hypothetically (as he frequently mentions in his interviews). But, absolutely I agree, by not clarifying this discussion, it furthers stereotypes of Roma and feeds xenophobia, especially if it turns out that they are not even POI/suspects in this case.

and sorry for missing the part where K said "gypsy" the first time I heard the interview

 

[Dotta]

You're right. I listened to it again, and K didn't use the word Roma, but he did use the word "gypsy" in the context of prodding from the newsman and newswoman as to who would be the type of person that would be a gun collector/enthusiast, to display a silver revolver on social media, in the hypothetical that he was describing. They jumped on that, and in my opinion didn't give him a chance to clarify that he was speaking hypothetically (as he frequently mentions in his interviews). But, absolutely I agree, by not clarifying this discussion, it furthers stereotypes of Roma and feeds xenophobia, especially if it turns out that they are not even POI/suspects in this case.

and sorry for missing the part where K said "gypsy" the first time I heard the interview

You have absolutely nothing to be sorry about. You are our Theseus helping us all in the labyrinth of Greek language and reality

 

[Patrick Jane]

Γλυκά Νερά: Εγκαταλείπει για πάντα τη μεζονέτα ο πιλότος – Στο σημείο «μηδέν» οι έρευνες - ΤΑ ΝΕΑ

there's a lot here in this report

let me start by saying, according to this reporting, the husband has decided to soon "empty out" (i.e. move out) of the house, and move somewhere away from there.

there are no signs of forced entry on the window either

there's much more here and in the video, that I'll talk about later when I can

Ok, let's tackle the mystery of the window.

excerpt from the article:

• Το παράθυρο δεν είχε ίχνη παραβίασης, ούτε γυαλιά ήταν σπασμένα κάτω, ούτε το τελάρο είχε ίχνη από κατσαβίδι
• Ήταν βγαλμένο και ακουμπισμένο στο πάτωμα, στη μέση του δωματίου στο υπόγειο και γύρω υπήρχαν διάσπαρτες πεταμένες βίδες.

The window did not have (any) sign of forced entry, (as there was) not even (any) broken glass down (on the floor) below, (and) not even a mark from a screwdriver on the frame
(The window) had been pulled out and was laid on the floor, in the middle of the basement room, and there were all around scattered, discarded screws.

(my translation)

 

[Patrick Jane]

Is it possible for a window to be unscrewed from the outside? Has anyone ever heard of such a thing?

 

[Dotta]

Is it possible for a window to be unscrewed from the outside? Has anyone ever heard of such a thing?

Mind boggles at the very idea of unscrewing! a window. My windows are sealed into the frames at the factory and then built into a wall. The only way to break the window is to shatter the glass with great force (double glazing).

 

[Kaykedi]

I actually came to the thread waiting for Dotta to post this non comment

HA Ha You know me so well Seriously, I should practise biting my tongue before I speak![/QUOTE]
No, don't bite your tongue Dotta