Guatemala - Nancy Ng, 29, from Monterey Park CA, missing during Yoga Retreat, 19 Oct 2023

[10ofRods]

I am going to mention a factor in deaths like this, because I think WS is the right audience. One of the things we gain from yoga - or hiking - is a sense of well-being, even euphoria. We feel strong and invincible.

This is true of many people who have misadventures in nature, I believe. Base jumpers might be the most extreme example. It's something I've had to temper in my own self (I no longer go solo hiking in backcountry - and it's not because I fear crime, at all, it's because I know the statistics about risk taking and I know myself, I have a hard time sticking to plan, think I can go explore an area that could be dangerous, etc).

Having an inner dialogue with one's own self (in which one side of your inner conversation plays Devil's Advocate and says, REALLY? you're going hiking with just 1 liter of water?? What are you thinking?? - or whatever it is), is barely adequate for safety.

It's better to actually have a partner or a concession operator who asks tough questions and points out risks. This doesn't always happen at retreats or in resorts.

But today's emphasis is on solo decision-making, euphoric experiences in nature, etc.

This is a recipe for some risk. Studies show that having truthful conversations with an intelligent adventure partner is protective. When we go to tourist places and see a lot of other people doing more risky things (kayaking on a big, deep lake without a PFD; people jumping off kayaks into the same lake), we are more likely to do them ourselves. When we are feeling on top of the world, relaxed and joyous, we might actually be more likely to make major errors.

Depression or desperation causes errors too, but I'm speaking of something else here - not often talked about, from personal observation of SO many deaths in nature, over 30 years of study. I know a lot of us are parents or grandparents and have to watch our kids take risks, but in my case, I find I must say something to them beyond "Be careful."

 

[10ofRods]

I have not been on such a retreat, but even if people are arriving separately for a bit of relaxation and quiet (?)- Does it still make sense that someone from your cohort goes missing and you just leave for your home country and think, "well, I hope they find that lady?"

Maybe that's the kind of world we live in these days? People wrapped up in posting their own selfies and stories, but not really connecting with other humans in person when at these things?

Moo. No idea. Is there a sense of temporary community at these things?

It's really hard to afford to change air travel plans. We always pay $100 each for trip insurance when we go out of country, but that only started when I was in my 50's. Until then, we just took the risk.

I've been to retreats and conferences all over the place. I'm not sure that I would have known at some of them that a person had gone missing - unless they were my roommate. Even then, the relationships are temporary and thin. Sometimes there are SO many people one meets at a retreat, that one doesn't really bond or remember any of them that well.

Some here seem to be assuming that the Retreat itself spread the word that NN was missing - but we don't know that. It became news after the people had left. But for them to find new lodging and pay the fees for changing airfare (when I would think most of them are quite young and not rich), is a big ask. Someone would have needed to foot the bill, IMO.

I think the sense of community at these things is very temporary.

The last one I went to, I stupidly forgot my wallet at home. It was a 3 hour drive for spouse to bring it to me and there was no way I was going to ask that. I had no money for gas. I did not feel I knew a single person (even though I'd seen a couple of them at the same retreat a year before) that I could ask for help. I ended up scouring my car with a flashlight, turning up about $7 in change and dollar bills (now I keep $25 in my car at all times, ha). Gas was cheaper then, so it was enough to get me within range of home and spouse could have met me - but I made it home on fumes. Some of the retreat people were standing outside watching while I searched my car - I'm pretty sure it was clear I was having a problem, but they were happily chatting with each other and I"m not sure that they even recognized me once we were outside the actual event place and in the parking lot.

IMO

 

[azure]

I have not been on such a retreat, but even if people are arriving separately for a bit of relaxation and quiet (?)- Does it still make sense that someone from your cohort goes missing and you just leave for your home country and think, "well, I hope they find that lady?"

Maybe that's the kind of world we live in these days? People wrapped up in posting their own selfies and stories, but not really connecting with other humans in person when at these things?

Honest question: would you lose your job to search for a complete stranger in a developing country at your expense?

I travel a ton, I own my own business and have a vested interest in missing persons and (I'd like to think) a lot of compassion. Still I can only see myself extending my trip a day or two. I have clients at home that I can't let down and responsibilities I need to attend to.

This is not to mention that I doubt Guatemalan authorities want a bunch of inexperienced foreigners searching for a missing person. What are they going to do, jump in kayaks and have their own accidents?

 

[Tony1902]

“…she wants to swim and that is when she drowns” Does anyone else find this phrasing odd? Is it English to Spanish/Nahuatl then to English again? Spanish is my native language, but it’s still is a bit strange even in Spanish.
It appears to imply the witness actually knew she drowned/saw her drowning. IDK

 

[imstilla.grandma]

*Breathtakingly beautiful blues

The FBI, while aiding the Guatemalan government in the investigation, has stressed that the Guatemalan authorities remain the chief agency.

The uncertainty surrounding Ng’s fate has plunged her family into an abyss of distress. The quest to bring her back home is a race against time, underscored by the challenges of conducting such a search in a foreign country. Differences in language, culture, and resources compound the issue. However, the family is banking on the support of the local community and the FBI’s assistance for a breakthrough.

As the investigation trudges on, the Ng family clings to hope, determined to exhaust every avenue in their search. The disappearance of Nancy Ng underscores the significance of community solidarity and collective action in times of crisis

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[Cedars]

I’m wondering the same. If the witnesses were other members of the yoga retreat, I don’t see why it has been so difficult to get eyewitness testimony. I’m wondering if the witnesses we haven’t heard from yet were Guatemalan? Is this case being put on Guatemalan news? I don’t think the language barrier would be an issue with the FBI involved (surely they have translators?), but I don’t know how Guatemalans tend to feel about their own police force, let alone an American one. If attitudes towards LE tend to be full of distrust, then I can see why it has been hard to get these people talking.

To note on the translator bit, I will say that sometimes LE just doesn’t make an effort to interview people if they don’t speak English (Jennifer Kesse’s case comes to mind – LE didn’t interview any of the Spanish-speaking workers around her building. She went missing in FLORIDA. But no Spanish translator? Okay…). It doesn’t seem like that’s the case here, but you never know.

Nancy seems like a kind, free spirit and I hope she gets to go home soon.

The use of the word 'witness' is possibly problematic here.

I think it means "people who were questioned by authorities, some of whom reported information which has been used to reconstruct what we think happened', rather than "people who stood around watching her drown".

IMO, the authorities are not giving information about all the reports from people who didn't see anything. Which is most everyone on the retreat.

When you are reconstructing what happened, you don't hold on to and repeat all the reports "Janice was having a shower and saw nothing, Theresa was paddle boarding and saw nothing, Donna was chatting with .....", etc, etc, ad nauseum.

They have only given reports from people who did see something...and they have only given the part of the report that is relevant to what happened to NN.

In particular the one who spoke to her 2 km from shore. IMO, the implication is, that's all that witness knows, because that witness turned away and stopped conversing with NN.

When police submit an affadavit, they write "witness A saw a man matching the suspect running past their house at address", police do not continue the report 'Witness A then returned to the kitchen because the kettle was boiling".

Do we then speculate, but what happened next? Do we assume Witness A must have run after the suspect and why are police leaving that part out? What about the other neighbours, why aren't police reporting what they saw? It must be a coverup!

JMO

 

[10ofRods]

“…she wants to swim and that is when she drowns” Does anyone else find this phrasing odd? Is it English to Spanish/Nahuatl then to English again? Spanish is my native language, but it’s still is a bit strange even in Spanish.
It appears to imply the witness actually knew she drowned/saw her drowning. IDK

I doubt there was a single Mayan speaking person anywhere near that retreat or near tourists at all, that day (except maybe in the local marketplace). Monolingual Mayan speakers are vanishingly rare in Guatemala (where I did fieldwork - among Mayan speakers, but ended up in a village further north, in Chiapas).

I don't think it's odd phrasing (the syntax maybe; but "she wants/wishes to swim" would imply that she goes swimming - and drowns. We'd probably leave out the "she wants" part in English. She went swimming and drowned would be our brief way of putting it - and that appears to be exactly what's known and all that's known.

I personally find deep lakes terrifying, because I have a tendency to get muscle cramps (in my back and in one leg). This started in my 40's, so NN is a bit young for it - but the coldness of the water makes a difference to my body. Sometimes a person inhales water while swimming (if there's chop especially) and that causes a reflexive gasp, in which the body naturally straightens itself into a vertical position. Once in that vertical position, a person goes underwater and continues downward unless there's a bottom - or they have the strength and thoughtfulness to remember to use the arms to stroke upward (but if the cramp is lower body, the arms have to drag that dead weight). Even with a flutter kick and the arms, once a person is vertical under water and cannot find bottom, they tend to panic. I know I do. PFD's do not cause a person to pop up to the surface like a cork, either.

A PFD is not a life jacket, I just learned. A life jacket will get you to the top and keep your head out of water (but people still drown if there's enough chop and their head is only barely out of water - one needs to tip the head back and attempt to gasp air when there's no wave - tiny amounts of inhaled water in that situation can be deadly over time - maybe take an hour).

A PFD does help with hyperthermia and it does help an already floating person to stay afloat - but let's say that someone did actually dive into the water with one - it might not be capable of bringing the person back up if they weren't kicking and using their arms in the right direction. I just read a harrowing story of someone who jumped into choppy water and lost their bearings (unlikely in Lake Atitlan during the day - but depends on how deep the dive is). The trick I learned is that you have to exhale a bit of the air in the lungs and watch which the bubbles go - that will be up!

But I'm content just reading about misadventures online and have no plans to go kayaking in the near future - bad back.

IMO.

 

[Cedars]

“…she wants to swim and that is when she drowns” Does anyone else find this phrasing odd? Is it English to Spanish/Nahuatl then to English again? Spanish is my native language, but it’s still is a bit strange even in Spanish.
It appears to imply the witness actually knew she drowned/saw her drowning. IDK

I don't understand...clearly it's an English translation, I expect some kind of machine rather than human. Google translate is frequently laughable. It is particularly incompentent with subtle/legal style tenses.

JMO

 

[waldojabba]

It's really hard to afford to change air travel plans. We always pay $100 each for trip insurance when we go out of country, but that only started when I was in my 50's. Until then, we just took the risk.

I've been to retreats and conferences all over the place. I'm not sure that I would have known at some of them that a person had gone missing - unless they were my roommate. Even then, the relationships are temporary and thin. Sometimes there are SO many people one meets at a retreat, that one doesn't really bond or remember any of them that well.

Some here seem to be assuming that the Retreat itself spread the word that NN was missing - but we don't know that. It became news after the people had left. But for them to find new lodging and pay the fees for changing airfare (when I would think most of them are quite young and not rich), is a big ask. Someone would have needed to foot the bill, IMO.

I think the sense of community at these things is very temporary.

The last one I went to, I stupidly forgot my wallet at home. It was a 3 hour drive for spouse to bring it to me and there was no way I was going to ask that. I had no money for gas. I did not feel I knew a single person (even though I'd seen a couple of them at the same retreat a year before) that I could ask for help. I ended up scouring my car with a flashlight, turning up about $7 in change and dollar bills (now I keep $25 in my car at all times, ha). Gas was cheaper then, so it was enough to get me within range of home and spouse could have met me - but I made it home on fumes. Some of the retreat people were standing outside watching while I searched my car - I'm pretty sure it was clear I was having a problem, but they were happily chatting with each other and I"m not sure that they even recognized me once we were outside the actual event place and in the parking lot.

IMO

Southern California woman disappeared during yoga retreat in Guatemala weeks ago, family says

Nancy Ng, a 29-year-old from L.A., was first reported missing Oct. 19 while on a yoga retreat in Lake Atitlán in Guatemala, according to her family.

www.cbsnews.com

Reposting this article
The woman reports that Ng went in to swim and then she drown. And then
“At that point, officials say the other person who had been kayaking with Ng turned back to notify the larger group, and, later, the staff of the hotel where they were staying. The hotel manager reported her disappearance to local authorities on Oct. 20, after initial attempts by staff to find Ng were unsuccessful. The others who traveled to Guatemala for the retreat checked out of the hotel that day to return to their homes, the ministry said.”
So IMO the group went out kayaking - (it has been reported there were ten people on the retreat) the woman who had been with Ng paddles back to the group and tells them what happened. She also notifies the hotel.
Hotel staff reportedly search.
The next day the people in the retreat return home. I have no problem with them returning home. Since they clearly were aware of her “drowning” imo I don’t know why when back on American soil they were so hard to get ahold of.
That’s what troubles me. The lag time in reporting and the unwillingness of people to talk.
Imo

 

[masquerading]

The use of the word 'witness' is possibly problematic here.

I think it means "people who were questioned by authorities, some of whom reported information which has been used to reconstruct what we think happened', rather than "people who stood around watching her drown".

IMO, the authorities are not giving information about all the reports from people who didn't see anything. Which is most everyone on the retreat.

When you are reconstructing what happened, you don't hold on to and repeat all the reports "Janice was having a shower and saw nothing, Theresa was paddle boarding and saw nothing, Donna was chatting with .....", etc, etc, ad nauseum.

They have only given reports from people who did see something...and they have only given the part of the report that is relevant to what happened to NN.

In particular the one who spoke to her 2 km from shore. IMO, the implication is, that's all that witness knows, because that witness turned away and stopped conversing with NN.

When police submit an affadavit, they write "witness A saw a man matching the suspect running past their house at address", police do not continue the report 'Witness A then returned to the kitchen because the kettle was boiling".

Do we then speculate, but what happened next? Do we assume Witness A must have run after the suspect and why are police leaving that part out? What about the other neighbours, why aren't police reporting what they saw? It must be a coverup!

JMO

I definitely agree with you! I don’t suspect foul play here, unfortunately it seems like the water got the best of Nancy somehow and she drowned. And now we have more info from the article waldo posted above me, and it seems almost certain that that’s what happened IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

Southern California woman disappeared during yoga retreat in Guatemala weeks ago, family says

Nancy Ng, a 29-year-old from L.A., was first reported missing Oct. 19 while on a yoga retreat in Lake Atitlán in Guatemala, according to her family.

www.cbsnews.com

Reposting this article
The woman reports that Ng went in to swim and then she drown. And then
“At that point, officials say the other person who had been kayaking with Ng turned back to notify the larger group, and, later, the staff of the hotel where they were staying. The hotel manager reported her disappearance to local authorities on Oct. 20, after initial attempts by staff to find Ng were unsuccessful. The others who traveled to Guatemala for the retreat checked out of the hotel that day to return to their homes, the ministry said.”
So IMO the group went out kayaking - (it has been reported there were ten people on the retreat) the woman who had been with Ng paddles back to the group and tells them what happened. She also notifies the hotel.
Hotel staff reportedly search.
The next day the people in the retreat return home. I have no problem with them returning home. Since they clearly were aware of her “drowning” imo I don’t know why when back on American soil they were so hard to get ahold of.
That’s what troubles me. The lag time in reporting and the unwillingness of people to talk.
Imo

The only entity with information about who they are would be the Retreat Runners. Whose name has been kept out of MSM AFAIK.

We don't even know that the whole group went kayaking (since the report says she was with one other kayaker, if they did all go - they must have split up; the others would have little idea what happened).

Sounds like the one person who reported that NN was "going swimming" did speak to authorities.

I doubt they're unwilling to talk - I bet they have not actually been contacted using their email and phone as given to secure reservations.

I didn't realize that the one woman said she paddled back to the group and alerted them.

As I wrote before, I'd need to see a known caller's phone number on my own phone to answer - so a text first is the only thing that could get me ready to answer an unknown caller. I get about 10-15 unknown callers on any given day.

I don't see how "hotel staff" could actually search the water. And...what about "retreat staff"? Why do we know so little about this? Did the hotel itself build the yoga retreat package? Entirely possible - which also means it's probably something they do routinely and they may have policies about giving clients' information to LE - which is why I was wondering about warrants. However, if no one in the group knows any more than the one eyewitness - why would LE go to the expense of subpoenaing the Hotel? Why isn't the Hotel cooperating?

Because that's the first step in getting the phone numbers and email addresses of the other participants. For all we know, they've all responded to email contact and say they have no further information, other than that they, too, were in kayaks and they heard from someone else that NN had disappeared. What more do you think they could even know?

 

[dotr]

'Nov 9, 2023
Searches for Nancy Ng, a Monterey Park woman who went missing in Guatemala, have stopped.'

 

[waldojabba]

'Nov 9, 2023
Searches for Nancy Ng, a Monterey Park woman who went missing in Guatemala, have stopped.'

The clip also showed includes that prosecutors say she drowned but the family says that info conflicts with the evidence they have received from their attorney and search and rescue team.
I wonder what the evidence could be?
Stay tuned I still think there may be more to this. I honestly hope not. But no stone unturned. Imo

 

[Cedars]

Southern California woman disappeared during yoga retreat in Guatemala weeks ago, family says

Nancy Ng, a 29-year-old from L.A., was first reported missing Oct. 19 while on a yoga retreat in Lake Atitlán in Guatemala, according to her family.

www.cbsnews.com

Reposting this article
The woman reports that Ng went in to swim and then she drown. And then
“At that point, officials say the other person who had been kayaking with Ng turned back to notify the larger group,

Thanks for reposting.

The key phrase that IMO has been misinterpreted is:

"Ng 'decided to jump into the lake to swim, at which point she disappeared,' according to the statement."

So, it implies she went straight in over her head and never resurfaced.

I think this use of the word 'disappeared', has been mistaken for 'abducted' in some people's minds.

ETA: possibly the other woman has been traumatized or feels guilty or is afraid of being blamed/sued, and doesn't want to speak to the clearly very upset family.

JMO

 

[waldojabba]

The only entity with information about who they are would be the Retreat Runners. Whose name has been kept out of MSM AFAIK.

We don't even know that the whole group went kayaking (since the report says she was with one other kayaker, if they did all go - they must have split up; the others would have little idea what happened).

Sounds like the one person who reported that NN was "going swimming" did speak to authorities.

I doubt they're unwilling to talk - I bet they have not actually been contacted using their email and phone as given to secure reservations.

I didn't realize that the one woman said she paddled back to the group and alerted them.

As I wrote before, I'd need to see a known caller's phone number on my own phone to answer - so a text first is the only thing that could get me ready to answer an unknown caller. I get about 10-15 unknown callers on any given day.

I don't see how "hotel staff" could actually search the water. And...what about "retreat staff"? Why do we know so little about this? Did the hotel itself build the yoga retreat package? Entirely possible - which also means it's probably something they do routinely and they may have policies about giving clients' information to LE - which is why I was wondering about warrants. However, if no one in the group knows any more than the one eyewitness - why would LE go to the expense of subpoenaing the Hotel? Why isn't the Hotel cooperating?

Because that's the first step in getting the phone numbers and email addresses of the other participants. For all we know, they've all responded to email contact and say they have no further information, other than that they, too, were in kayaks and they heard from someone else that NN had disappeared. What more do you think they could even know?

@10ofRods I think we need to agree to disagree on this one
I no longer practice yoga and go to retreats. But there was a time when I did. I usually came away knowing quite a few people. That may be just due to my personality and being always vigilant alone in unfamiliar surroundings and liking to make connections perhaps for a little bit of a false sense of safety. I travel solo a lot for biz and pleasure so I know the drill.
I am of course also just looking at this case from how I would behave if I was alerted someone had drowned say out in the lake at Kripalu in the Berkshires - my last yoga destination. I would do anything in my power to help. Even if it was to contact authorities and tell them I neither saw nor heard anything.
The sense I get is that people are not cooperating or responding. And I am also assuming by now with fbi involvement that the fbi are the ones contacting her group. If they were able to connect with all ten in the group - even if these 10 people had not seen or heard anything - I believe we would have heard connections were made.
Just me just my thoughts.
IMO

 

[slowpoke]

From another Guatemalan news report: link

”Bomberos Voluntarios retomaron este 9 de noviembre la búsqueda de Nancy Ng, de 29 años, la turista de Estados Unidos que desapareció en el Lago de Atitlán el pasado 19 de octubre miembro navegaba en un kayak.

Los socorristas informaron que las labores habían sido suspendidas el pasado 30 de octubre, pero este 9 de noviembre fueron retomadas.”


Google translated:
This November 9, Volunteer Firefighters resumed the search for Nancy Ng, 29, the tourist from the United States who disappeared in Lake Atitlán on October 19. Member was sailing in a kayak.

The lifeguards reported that the work had been suspended on October 30, but on November 9 they were resumed.

 

[10ofRods]

I'm guessing the pause in the search was to wait for the period of time when bodies tend to resurface. They probably know the averages for Lake Atitlan's water temps.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

*Translated:

According to the investigative body, it is intended to take a statement from those who shared a trip with the 29-year-old girl, so "the corresponding legal assistance is managed."

"So far, eye inspections have been carried out in the area where the woman is presumed to have disappeared, as well as in the room where she was staying; searches have also been carried out in the area, with the support of frog men and a helicopter," it was reported.

According to the official report, it was the manager of the hotel where Nancy and her colleagues were staying who reported their loss to the police authorities of Santa Cruz La Laguna, in Sololá, where the event occurred.

After that, the personnel of the National Civil Police (PNC) notified the MP and the respective investigative proceedings were initiated, said the Communication unit of that entity.

Another shared detail was that the group of tourists left the hotel on October 20, a day after the young woman's disappearance. At that time they would have returned to the United States.

On that date, an Isabel-Claudina alert was activated, which is still in force, in search of finding the tourist.

¿Investiga el FBI? Esto dice el MP sobre la turista desaparecida en lago de Atitlán

Entidades guatemaltecas y de EE.UU. investigan el caso de la turista Nancy Ng.EN CONTEXTO: FBI investiga desaparición de turista en el lago de AtitlánEl Ministerio Público (MP) confirmó que se hacen coordinaciones internacionales para dar con testigos de la desaparición

www.soy502.com

Nancy's relatives also reported that "key witnesses (many of whom returned to the United States) did not take a step forward or provide a witness report."

"Due to the lack of this mandatory information, the search is now subject to investigation by local prosecution authorities, the FBI and the U.S. Department of State," reads a publication on that site.

¿Investiga el FBI? Esto dice el MP sobre la turista desaparecida en lago de Atitlán

Entidades guatemaltecas y de EE.UU. investigan el caso de la turista Nancy Ng.EN CONTEXTO: FBI investiga desaparición de turista en el lago de AtitlánEl Ministerio Público (MP) confirmó que se hacen coordinaciones internacionales para dar con testigos de la desaparición

www.soy502.com

 

[waldojabba]

From another Guatemalan news report: link

”Bomberos Voluntarios retomaron este 9 de noviembre la búsqueda de Nancy Ng, de 29 años, la turista de Estados Unidos que desapareció en el Lago de Atitlán el pasado 19 de octubre miembro navegaba en un kayak.

Los socorristas informaron que las labores habían sido suspendidas el pasado 30 de octubre, pero este 9 de noviembre fueron retomadas.”


Google translated:
This November 9, Volunteer Firefighters resumed the search for Nancy Ng, 29, the tourist from the United States who disappeared in Lake Atitlán on October 19. Member was sailing in a kayak.

The lifeguards reported that the work had been suspended on October 30, but on November 9 they were resumed.

If she did indeed drown - FIngers crossed her body resurfaces and it is spotted and rescued so that the Ng family can put their sister and daughter to rest
IMO

 

[musicaljoke]

From this article, it seems as if her companion went back to the hotel to let the group know that Ng had disappeared, and the companion also let the staff of the hotel know. It seems that staff went out to search for her but were unsuccessful. I believe from another article, that is when the kayak was discovered. When they weren't able to locate her, the hotel manager reported her disappearance the following day.

The delay in reporting her missing is problematic. What reason could there have been to delay putting in a missing person report? Were they out searching until after midnight? Surely it cannot be that the manager just didn't bother calling it in.

~~~
"Ng was last seen while kayaking with other tourists who had come to Guatemala for the retreat, the Guatemalan Public Ministry said in a statement on Tuesday. She and another person eventually broke off from the group, and they continued to kayak for slightly over a mile into the lake before Ng "decided to jump into the lake to swim, at which point she disappeared," according to the statement.

"At that point, officials say the other person who had been kayaking with Ng turned back to notify the larger group, and, later, the staff of the hotel where they were staying. The hotel manager reported her disappearance to local authorities on Oct. 20, after initial attempts by staff to find Ng were unsuccessful."

Southern California woman disappeared during yoga retreat in Guatemala weeks ago, family says

Nancy Ng, a 29-year-old from L.A., was first reported missing Oct. 19 while on a yoga retreat in Lake Atitlán in Guatemala, according to her family.

www.cbsnews.com