Gun Control Debate #4

[Jennifer17]

Is it A. Odysseus Patrick? He's the author of that NY Times article.

Must have been a different one.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

I'm not the person you asked but I read news from a variety of sources, and IMO the Christian Science Monitor is one of the least biased. Then AP. But I also check with Pew, SNOPES, Politifact and factcheck.

I rarely watch TV news.

You?

Oh, hey! The Christian Science Monitor is a really reliable, unbiased source, imo. Good one!!

If I’m following a crime on this forum, I’ll try to follow to local sources in that area as much as possible.

Unless, of course, it becomes a national story. Then I look at datelines to see where the story’s filed from.

“Boots on the ground” coverage is generally more relatable and independently verified. Not aggregated, in other words, like a game of telephone. [emoji6] Which is why I personally don’t trust local TV sources as much, as it can be “ripped and read” from the work print of journalists, in my experience.

If it’s a thread like this, I examine sources for bias. I want studies and data that’s sourced, then I’ll often check out those sources for deeper context.

If it’s national/international, I look for sources with track records of ethical, non-biased, watchdog reporting and accurate info. They might report on things I disagree with, but I also know that’s a separate issue than whether it’s accurate or not.

Some people also confuse watchdog journalism with bias, but it isn’t. That’s a huge misconception, imo.

Polls/research:
Pew, Gallup, Harvard, FiveThirtyEight, etc., and ISTE-based education/tech sources.

Also, for fact-checking, bias flags, and the like: Open Secrets, WaPo FactChecker, PolitiFact, FactCheck.org (good for politics), Snopes (for viral misinformation), Center for Media Literacy, All Sides, ProPublica.

National/International:
WaPo, NYTimes, Guardian, BBC, NPR, LATimes, Al Jazeera, Chicago Tribune, etc. Papers with more resources to cover stories.

Unfortunately, this gun debate thread gets tricky because our own government doesn’t study this issue, and state-to-state reporting and data isn’t thorough or mandated.

Until that changes, I have to use all of the above and independent, verified research.

Here’s an interesting Pew study on trust of journalism and media:
http://www.journalism.org/2016/07/07/trust-and-accuracy/

Here’s an interesting piece on what to watch for in polling bias:
https://www.iste.org/explore/articleDetail?articleid=916

Center for Media Literacy:
http://www.medialit.org/
http://frankwbaker.com/mlc/

OpenSecrets.org:
https://www.opensecrets.org/

AllSides is pretty good at weighing bias:
https://www.allsides.com/unbiased-balanced-news

All MOO

 

[rosemadderlake]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=usGObvP42GM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=usGObvP42GM

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Quite honestly I don't know of any unbiased sources when it comes to gun control. Thus my earlier quote.

I’m curious as to the reasons why you believe them to be biased? What raises raises red flags for you, regarding sources reporting on gun violence/reform?

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Bumping discussion for reference, context.

NRA sues Florida over gun bill same day Gov. Scott signed it into law

The complaint says the new law prohibits law-abiding citizens between the ages of 18 and 21 from lawfully purchasing a firearm of any kind.

"This blanket ban violates the fundamental rights of thousands of responsible, law-abiding Florida citizens and is thus invalid under the Second and Fourteenth Amendments," it says.

https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2018/03/09/nra-sues-florida-over-gun-bill-same-day-gov-scott-signed-law/412365002/

This is crap, per the SCOTUS’ Heller decision that everyone champions, even the NRA.

“Blanket ban?” Hogwash! It’s spelled out: States have a right to “impose conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.”

Downloadable pdf
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

From the District of Columbia vs Heller decision:

“Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited.

“It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues.

“The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.

“Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. (Pp. 54–56.)”

Everything I have read about the new law changes the puchasing age from 18 to 21. Unless there is fine print in the law an eighteen year old will still legally be allowed to own any legal gun. It can be passed down to them from family members, given as a gift to them or loaned to them. At least this is the way I read it.

Yes, I had the same interpretation. Which is why this isn’t a “blanket ban,” as the NRA claims, imo.

The new law equalizes the buying age to 21.

To my thinking, the NRA is challenging this because other states might follow. They hope fewer states will pass similar laws — other state legislatures are considering similar laws now — and Congress might eventually follow.

In 2010, the lobbyists filed two federal lawsuits in Texas to force the state to sell handguns to 18-20 year olds.

Hm. That’s potentially a lot of delayed gun sales if this Florida law stands.

Editorial: Handguns for 18-Year-Olds?
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/26/opinion/26fri1.html

 

[rosemadderlake]

"And still no more mass shootings. If they use them, they kill each other. It is also only tactical response teams who are armed with those guns.


Can you tell me where all these automatic guns are being used to commit murders in Australia? I think that our last murder by gun was about four weeks ago. A bikie gang member who had been released from jail on parole, for murdering a member of another bikie gang.


If it is the same one that I read it was written by an ex Australian Ambassador to the US, but I can't remember his name now. It was about the gun culture in the US.

Response: Is it A. Odysseus Patrick? He's the author of that NY Times article.

Must have been a different one."

---
SO not helpful... And so much more.
Bah. Just interested in bringing USA down... Who needs this crap? Imo

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Oh I don't know of any laws prohibiting alcohol and gun use. I simply said, Common sense states alcohol and gun use don't mix.

Unfortunately, common sense cannot be legislated although I know few people who think it should..

Laws sometimes accommodate for our lack of common sense. They protect us from ourselves and others, and offer legal remedies for those w/o the common sense to follow them.

Set belt laws
Trigger lock laws
Drunk driving laws
Helmet laws
Child car seat laws
Cellphone use while driving laws
Mandatory air bag laws for cars and trucks
Miranda rights
Sex offender registries
Underage drinking laws
Public intoxication laws
Speed limits
Weapon-free zones (including courthouses)

Etc.

 

[rsd1200]

I've never heard that it's illegal for a doctor to ask if a patient has guns (in Fl.). If I were a mental health counselor,
I would be on guard with all my patients today, in case they have a gun, and because I might become their target
when they have an angry meltdown. It's become the wild, wild west out there and especially when dealing with unbalanced people or patients.

Fla made it law, in 2011, known as the Privacy of Firearm Owners act. A federal appeals court struck it down, but, Gov. Rick Scott appealed the decision, and it was re-instated. Challengers asked that the case be reheard, and it was repealed in 2017 by the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals .

As of October, 2016

In 2011, Florida became the first state to pass a law prohibiting physicians from asking whether their patients own guns.1 Twelve other states have since introduced similar legislation. These laws are based on the misdirected beliefs that gun safety is not the physician’s responsibility,2,3 that doctors discussing guns in the clinical setting violates patient privacy,4 and that physicians are unable to separate personal feelings about guns from their professional duties.5 For the reasons outlined here, physicians are not only well-positioned to promote patient safety with regard to firearms, but have a responsibility to do so while respecting patient rights. The comfort some gun owners might find in legal sanctions against physician-initiated gun conversations does not justify the loss of effective and respectful life-saving interventions.

1. N.D. H.B 1241.
2. 2015 Ohio S.B. 177.
3. 2015 Tex. H.B. 2823.
4. 2014 Okla. H.B. 2022.
5. 2014 W.Va. H.B. 2502.
6. 2013 Mont. H.B. 459 (signed into law April 19, 2013).
7. 2014 Mo. S.B. 656 (veto override Sept. 9, 2014).
8. 2014 Mo. S.B. 613, § 571.012.
9. 2015 Ind. H.B. 1494.
10. 2015 N.C. H.B. 699.
11. 2014 Tenn. H.B. 1827; 2014 Tenn. S.B. 1974.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5023592/

 

[rsd1200]

Mother Arrested After Son, 8, Shoots Daughter, 4


I don't understand why America is okay with shootings like this any more than I understand America is okay with school shootings. Are we really that helpless?

I'm not okay with it, These parents should be punished. I feel for their tragedy, but I feel more for that child who has to live with the fact, that they almost killed their sib. They nearly killed their sib, due to their parent's negligence. Mom and Dad did not LOCK UP THE FIREARMS. Just as the shooters have a common thread in what's going on inside, many of the young shooters get their firearms straight from their homes where MOM AND DAD HAVE TAKEN NO PRECAUTIONS. It has to start at home. Education, PSAs, and yes, these parents deserve some sort of punishment. I know they've lost their child, and that's punishment to infinity, but it's truly on them if they had a loaded weapon lying around within reach of a child. And FWIW I've not seen anyone on here who is OK with school shootings.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Hey folks who seek to be "right"? Whose countries are SO much better?

Guess what, you are actually not on the list of countries who can really help...

In fact, looking to countries who are 3D printing assault weapons to sell are not the countries I want to talk to in spite of their pro government crack down.

Forget about it. Welcome to the real world...

The gun debate is an American dilemma. Don't give me a "na na ah na na" my country is better than yours comparison.

It will never fly. I am pro gun reform, but I couldn't just say ban everything. No. That's not who we are. That's not who America is. My peeps, my gun owners, my intellectual ones know the answer is deeper than na na oh na na.

America is deep. And she is far wide in her troubles and consensus. Each and every opinion, experience matters here. In fact, it is crucial. Yes even na na, because it shows me who to discount.

I guess I want to thank everyone I don't necessarily agree with. For without you I wouldn't be rethinking some things. I gotta say I appreciate you, and am learning something new every day.

And I have to say this is what I love about my country. :heartbeat:

 

[rsd1200]

At what point did journalism lose the five W's and the one H?

I work in publishing, I would never in a zillion years even consider a story like that to be authentic and complete.

From the Ohio news.

https://www.mansfieldnewsjournal.co...s-4-year-old-sister-ashland-county/393353002/

 

[rsd1200]

Page Not Found.

I've not read it yet but Googled it. I've used up my freebies, got clear or use another browser.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/23/opinion/australias-gun-laws-america.html

 

[rsd1200]

Laws sometimes accommodate for our lack of common sense. They protect us from ourselves and others, and offer legal remedies for those w/o the common sense to follow them.

Set belt laws
Trigger lock laws
Drunk driving laws
Helmet laws
Child car seat laws
Cellphone use while driving laws
Mandatory air bag laws for cars and trucks
Miranda rights
Sex offender registries
Underage drinking laws
Public intoxication laws
Speed limits
Weapon-free zones (including courthouses)

Etc.

There's a few of those I disagree with but for the most part, yes, we have to modify laws. However, I put locks on my gates, they're there b/c someone came into my back field, one night, and didn't close up my back gate when they left, and my horses got out onto the highway. I put chains, and locks, on my back gates after that. They'll keep an honest man honest. That's about it.

 

[rsd1200]

Someone said after they heard our leader call for death penalty for drug dealers that the same should be for gun dealers when their products cause death too.

How about liquor store owners, when they sell to someone, who wipes out an entire family after said store's, customer, downs that 1/2 pint on the way home?

 

[rosemadderlake]

To my common sense cousin in McKeesport?

Ok granny, who is McKeesport?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Trump WH expected to support raising minimum age to buy long guns

President Trump is set to announce recommendations Sunday night on stopping school shootings that will include calls to increase the minimum age for buying long guns to 21, Fox News has learned.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...ort-raising-minimum-age-to-buy-long-guns.html

 

[bluesneakers]

Nationalism doesn't look good on anyone. JMO

 

[bluesneakers]

Hey Granny, Give us a break and post a link?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...h-penalty-drug-dealers-count-trump/414535002/

 

[rosemadderlake]

It's a town not far from Moon where the president spoke yesterday. Her boys went to hear him.

A town where? Not far from moon, where?

Perhaps you didn't post a link because it is political?

Still I want to know what YOU think???

 

[rsd1200]

List of social movements
https://www.britannica.com/topic/list-of-social-movements-2073658


I shock myself in how emotional I realize I am for participating in the gun debate... It made me remember how passionate and turbulent my teenage years were... Back then, I hooked into and found France whose own social revolution somehow matched ours.

That passion matched ours in the revolutionary mindset of the French. Imo

And, Lady Liberty stands as a beautiful reminder of that bond.

I remember it bubbling up after Charlie Hebdo. The intellect that is fearless, unapologetic. And died for it. This is the France I identify with... And France has been made a target of terrorism much like we have.

Now, as memories bubble up, I feel it could happen again. Perhaps because I remember it, and I feel it, and I see it in those young and unapologetic kids from Parkland Fl., with their laser focus. This is their moment.

Unaffected and unaffraid to go up against the NRA Goliath. The government Goliath. Your life or your guns. That's how passionate this resistance really is. And where was I in the early 70's? - on the streets... --Our lives or a tragic, pointless war...

We've drilled down to the heart of the matter and I look to the French for courage. I realize now it is about so much more than art and literature, it is about spirit, and passion. And these are the things that movements are made of...

I am older now and looking back I trust the process. Then like now, passionate ideologies converge on the same platform of love, patriotism, and fear. We must find the answer.

--jmo

My youngest has been marching, and volunteering, for something since she was in high school. She hopped a bus with her LGBTQ friends, and marched in Philly, before she was even out of high school. I allowed it as they had adult supervision. She's in her twenties and she went to a march a few month's back, but, with two young ones, and a full time job, with kid's activities, homework, etc... there's not as much free time now. She's a supporter o the 2A but, also supports these kids who are vocal, like she was, at their age, and older (she's very vocal), about coming together and making change. I think that's what happens many times, though. We begin raising families and we try to stay on top of things but between work, helping with homework, going to school plays, and competitive activities, with our kids, trying to grab some alone time with our spouse, in between all the life stuff, that we are not as focused on what's going on in the govt. Then, as our children leave home, our time is freer, and we get more interested again, and wonder how did THAT happen?!