Gun Control Debate #4

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  • #861
  • #862
Agree, states can, and should, step up to the plate, but, I posted this earlier in the thread, unless the states, bordering the states with stricter firearm laws, step up to the plate, or Congress grows some, and makes uniform laws, this is still going to happen:
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Soon after the tragic mass shooting in Las Vegas, the White House batted down the idea of enacting more gun control with the argument that many cities with strict gun laws have high murder rates. The White House specifically pointed to Chicago and Baltimore as “some of America’s cities with the strictest gun laws” coupled with “the highest rates of gun violence.”

An analysis of data from 107 pairs of bordering states2 throughout the country shows a relationship between the strictness of a state’s gun laws relative to its neighbor and the number of firearms recovered3 from that neighbor.4

Chicago is close to the borders of two states — Wisconsin and Indiana — that have weak gun laws. A 2014 report from the city of Chicago noted that 60 percent of guns used to commit crimes in Chicago from 2009 to 2013 originated outside of Illinois, and Indiana and Wisconsin were two of the biggest sources of recovered guns.5 And Illinois is not alone.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gun-laws-stop-at-state-lines-but-guns-dont/

FWIW, I'd already heard that this is going in on my state. Firearms go out, drugs/cash, come back. That's the entire extent of my knowledge about it, too. Period.

Sounds like the police in IL and MD need to start cracking down on criminals. If NY can do it, so can IL and MD.
 
  • #863
Schools are safer than they were in the 90s, and school shootings are not more common than they used to be, researchers say

The deadly school shooting this month in Parkland, Florida, has ignited national outrage and calls for action on gun reform. But while certain policies may help decrease gun violence in general, it’s unlikely that any of them will prevent mass school shootings, according to James Alan Fox, the Lipman Family Professor of Criminology, Law, and Public Policy at Northeastern.

https://news.northeastern.edu/2018/...e-safest-places-for-children-researcher-says/
 
  • #864
Interesting how far the number of fatalities plummeted in the midst of the semiautomatic weapon ban, imo, especially toward the end of it.

And I see nothing at the link saying schools "are safer than they were in the 1990s" (past the headline, anyway). ... I see recommendations such as policy changes, raising the age to purchase guns, increasing mental health resources, etc.

The number of fatalities fell straight down a cliff about a year or so after the weapon ban took effect, and spiked again into 2004. (b&w chart)

Looks like many shooters switched to pistols, revolvers, shotgun, etc. So the incidence of "four-plus" shootings, according to this study's guidelines, fell dramatically during "assault-style rifle ban" years. However, there were still shootings, they just weren't bloodbaths.

Perhaps correlated, perhaps causal. But not coincidence, in my opinion.

Thanks for the link, Gardenista!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

IMO.

From the link:

He called the suggestion to arm teachers “absurd” and “over the top.”“I’m not a big fan of making schools look like fortresses, because they send a message to kids that the bad guy is coming for you—if we’re surrounding you with security, you must have a bull’s-eye on your back,” Fox said. “That can actually instill fear, not relieve it.”


Schools are safer than they were in the 90s, and school shootings are not more common than they used to be, researchers say

The deadly school shooting this month in Parkland, Florida, has ignited national outrage and calls for action on gun reform. But while certain policies may help decrease gun violence in general, it’s unlikely that any of them will prevent mass school shootings, according to James Alan Fox, the Lipman Family Professor of Criminology, Law, and Public Policy at Northeastern.

https://news.northeastern.edu/2018/...e-safest-places-for-children-researcher-says/

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  • #865
Absolutely right you are, Belle. And we can stop a lot of it if we want to.


Trump looks to loosen restrictions on arm sales overseas; boost sales of firearms to foreign governments
http://www.newsweek.com/trump-looks-loosen-restrictions-arms-sales-boost-business-overseas-773852

The American Gun Glut Is a Problem for the Entire World
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligence...n-glut-is-a-problem-for-the-entire-world.html

From the article:

The point here is not that the AR-15 is a uniquely evil gun (it isn’t), but that while President Donald Trump demagogues about Mexican immigrants bringing drugs and crime across the border into the U.S., tens of thousands of American guns are making that journey in the opposite direction, often illegally and often destined for the people operating and profiting from the Mexican drug trade.

Mexico’s gun laws are extremely restrictive, but the proximity of the U.S. and the lack of regulation here make them relatively easy to smuggle into the country. As arms trafficking experts Sarah Kinosian and Eugenio Weigend wrote in a Los Angeles Times op-ed last year, Mexican criminals tend to get their hands on U.S. weapons the same way American criminals do: through straw purchases, in which one person buys a gun legally and sells it or hands it off illegally.

FAF actually had roots back to 2006. Operation Wide Receiver. ATF answers to the DOJ, who answers to the AG, who answers to the POTUS. The ATF needs more staff, to learn from their past, and to just stop walking firearms. Period.
 
  • #866
Sounds like the police in IL and MD need to start cracking down on criminals. If NY can do it, so can IL and MD.

From what I gather, they buy them legally. It's illegal when they transport them them into the other states. In my state they can buy them all day long through private sales at a gun show, or from folks who just want fast cash, only a transfer of cash is required. The link below does not specify, that I have found anyway, and I may not be reading it right, that rifles, in my state, are included in the sales. Maybe someone more familiar with gun shop rules, can chime in? FWIW we've had some pretty good sized Fentanyl busts recently.

Also, they're coming in from all around in the loose states. New York is not surrounded.

From link:
The sale or disposition of two or more handguns must be reported if they occur at the same time, or within five consecutive business days of each other. ATF views the recovery of one or more firearms used in crimes that were part of a multiple purchase as an indicator of firearms trafficking.

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center...firearms-sales-or-other-disposition-reporting
 
  • #867
Nothing much. Just wondering where it all got so crazy i guess and from what other posters posted it just reaffirms nothing much has changed really. It's always been like that in one way or another. That was also my point earlier, that nothing much changes over time, and probably never will regardless of what people try to do about it, IMO.
I respect others feel differently about it though.

I went to school in MN from K through the University back in the day.Zero lock down drills.

As a teacher in MN, since 1999 we had six lockdown drills a year. 20 years almost.
 
  • #868
I get that, but it wasn't here, period, even if they'd been the right age. Both spouses, and my friends, who were all, mostly, in the right age range to have been a part of that, missed it. The "movement" never came about here. I'm sure they saw something on National news but no one was organizing anything here.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Were there universities by you? Did the males have high draft numbers? Were friends coming home in caskets?

Or were they the poor who served as cannon fodder until they were used up and the draft instituted?
 
  • #869
Interesting how far the number of fatalities plummeted in the midst of the semiautomatic weapon ban, imo, especially toward the end of it.

And I see nothing at the link saying schools "are safer than they were in the 1990s" (past the headline, anyway). ... I see recommendations such as policy changes, raising the age to purchase guns, increasing mental health resources, etc.

The number of fatalities fell straight down a cliff about a year or so after the weapon ban took effect, and spiked again into 2004. (b&w chart)

Looks like many shooters switched to pistols, revolvers, shotgun, etc. So the incidence of "four-plus" shootings, according to this study's guidelines, fell dramatically during "assault-style rifle ban" years. However, there were still shootings, they just weren't bloodbaths.

Perhaps correlated, perhaps causal. But not coincidence, in my opinion.

Thanks for the link, Gardenista!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

IMO.

From the link:

He called the suggestion to arm teachers “absurd” and “over the top.”“I’m not a big fan of making schools look like fortresses, because they send a message to kids that the bad guy is coming for you—if we’re surrounding you with security, you must have a bull’s-eye on your back,” Fox said. “That can actually instill fear, not relieve it.”




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While I agree, I do believe it was, as has been studied (I posted a link(s) up thread), that it was the limits on the magazines that did the most. Because, these are only two, of the during "ban" years, semi, firearms, that were sold during those years.

The DC Tec9/AB-10 was what was used in the Columbine shooting, and the other was purchased, legally, and used October 2002, by John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo. It is a Bushmaster XM15 M4 A3. The two killed 10 and injured three in the Washington, D.C. area. The Bushmaster was legal at the time because Bushmaster made a cosmetic change to the rifle to skirt the 1994 assault weapons ban. Bushmaster advertised the gun as a "Post-Ban Carbine":

Legal, during ban, copy of DC Tec 9 re-named AB-10 (After Ban-10 years)
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Bushmaster legally sold during ban.
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  • #870
Schools are safer than they were in the 90s, and school shootings are not more common than they used to be, researchers say

The deadly school shooting this month in Parkland, Florida, has ignited national outrage and calls for action on gun reform. But while certain policies may help decrease gun violence in general, it’s unlikely that any of them will prevent mass school shootings, according to James Alan Fox, the Lipman Family Professor of Criminology, Law, and Public Policy at Northeastern.

https://news.northeastern.edu/2018/...e-safest-places-for-children-researcher-says/

I cannot see if the incidences were identified? I cannot believe it.
 
  • #871
I went to school in MN from K through the University back in the day.Zero lock down drills.

As a teacher in MN, since 1999 we had six lockdown drills a year. 20 years almost.

Did ya'll not have the useless "Duck and Cover" drills?

We started tornado drills after the '74 super outbreak, but those at least, were a bit useful. I was riding with family, in a VW Beetle, during the super outbreak. It was a sight to behold. Unforgettable.
 
  • #872
Were there universities by you? Did the males have high draft numbers? Were friends coming home in caskets?

Or were they the poor who served as cannon fodder until they were used up and the draft instituted?

I think we had two boys who lost their lives. When I visited D.C. I got an etching of one's name that I found when I visited the wall. I still have it. He was a friend of my current & ex husband. My cousin fought in Vietnam but, he is 17 years older than me and lived up north. He came down to say goodbye to the family and he held me for awhile. He almost died. I was little. I'm just saying the hippie stuff didn't hit here,for a couple years later(Or so I'm told, maybe my friends are lying to me. Most of them are at least 10-15 years older than me, so I figured they would know.), and my parents didn't sit and stare at the t.v. We had a farm to take care of, with livestock, and tobacco to raise, and my Dad traveled a round trip 80 miles, to work every day. My Dad served his country as did my Uncles, and my cousins. So I'don't know what you are getting at when I say that the fads and Woodstock didn't make it here and we didn't get the trends here till late, human. I don't understand this attack. I try to be cordial to everyone on WS, but this is enough.

As for poverty, yes, our region was the one they declared the War on Poverty. Like every other war, it's failed abysmally.
 
  • #873
Did ya'll not have the useless "Duck and Cover" drills?

We started tornado drills after the '74 super outbreak, but those at least, were a bit useful. I was riding with family, in a VW Beetle, during the super outbreak. It was a sight to behold. Unforgettable.
I thought human was referring only to lock down drills specifically, not all kinds of drills? Perhaps I misunderstood.
 
  • #874
I thought human was referring only to lock down drills specifically, not all kinds of drills? Perhaps I misunderstood.

Well duck and covers scared the Hell out of me. j.s. I knew they were pretty much useless even at that age. I'd heard my Dad talk about my Uncle up north building a fall out shelter and saying, What does he expect to be left? Scorched earth is all there will be.

ETA: Tornado drills didn't do much for me either but I thought there might be hope since we managed to get away from the one in '74.
 
  • #875
I think we had two boys who lost their lives. When I visited D.C. I got an etching of one's name that I found when I visited the wall. I still have it. He was a friend of my current & ex husband. My cousin fought in Vietnam but, he is 17 years older than me and lived up north. He came down to say goodbye to the family and he held me for awhile. He almost died. I was little. I'm just saying the hippie stuff didn't hit here,for a couple years later(Or so I'm told, maybe my friends are lying to me. Most of them are at least 10-15 years older than me, so I figured they would know.), and my parents didn't sit and stare at the t.v. We had a farm to take care of, with livestock, and tobacco to raise, and my Dad traveled a round trip 80 miles, to work every day. My Dad served his country as did my Uncles, and my cousins. So I'don't know what you are getting at when I say that the fads and Woodstock didn't make it here and we didn't get the trends here till late, human. I don't understand this attack. I try to be cordial to everyone on WS, but this is enough.

As for poverty, yes, our region was the one they declared the War on Poverty. Like every other war, it's failed abysmally.

Fads and Woodstock? I have not posted about that. I think others who have only read about those days or saw shows on it may be posting that.

What I am talking about is the kids coming home in body bags, It was the poor and minorities at first. Then when the draft came and there were no more exemptions such as for college, everyone took notice. Rich and middle class white boys! No way!

My college boyfriend had a job at the airport. He unloaded body bags.

The protests were no joke and fun times although the times were totally electric. The intensity of life and death.

Back in the day, people that I knew had the TV on during dinner time to watch the news. We got the war with all of the bloody destruction for our daily dose. All in black and white, night after night.

Children burning with napalm. The Mylai (sp.) massacre. Villages strafed with napalm.

Kids coming back with missing limbs.

The intensity of it all. The songs. The street theatre.

Watts.

But no guns at protests except one I remember very well. kent State
 
  • #876
I thought human was referring only to lock down drills specifically, not all kinds of drills? Perhaps I misunderstood.

Exactly. I think the duck and cover ended in 62? Maybe earlier. I did it in elementary but do not remember them after that.
 
  • #877
Exactly. I think the duck and cover ended in 62? Maybe earlier. I did it in elementary but do not remember them after that.

As if hiding under your desk would have done any good during a nuclear attack. I feel awful for any kids who were traumatized by that madness.
 
  • #878
  • #879
Well, they won't be in charge forever.
 
  • #880
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