Hannah's Journey on 09/13

[OliveEliot]

Newbie here with a first post. I was puzzling over some of the confusing details about Hannah's movements that night, but looking at Google Maps again with the information that the second party was at The Pointe Apts really made things come together in my mind. One poster said that from The Pointe, HG could have practically seen the GrandMarc apts, but it appears that The Pointe is really quite a bit further east on 14th St, after it becomes Madison in fact. So I started thinking about how some people really do almost completely lack a natural sense of direction; I had a boyfriend once who always would think he was headed in the opposite direction to where he thought he was going. It got to the point where I suggested that when he had to make a choice for a turn, he should just head the opposite way from what his first instinct told him.

Anyway, the more I read different posts and looked at the map, the more I began see the scenario like this: When she left The Pointe, she accidentally went to the right on Madison rather than left. Without realizing she was going the wrong direction, she made another right, as she would do if she were really heading the correct direction back toward her apt complex. This would bring her down Preston till it connected with Grady and she saw McGrady's, but felt kind of silly at not being able to figure out where she was and thus said she was just walking. When she goes off camera at McGrady's and the other people kind of stare in that direction, I suspect she was throwing up in the parking area. This may have made her feel temporarily better and she set off, again thinking she was going in the right direction but actually heading further southeast on Preston. Then she ran through that deserted section where the Shell station is because she was really scared by that point. Maybe when she hit the point where the cross-streets started to go back up in number (i.e. when she crossed over 1st street and was on the mall) she started to think she might be headed in the right direction again toward 15th Street. The way I interpret the way she's walking on the mall is that determined kind of stride when someone knows they're not in the right place but wants to pretend like they belong and know what they're doing and where they're going. I did the same thing one time on a visit to NYC when I was lost and just affected a look like "Yeah I know where I am and where I'm going" and just kept walking westward which I knew would get me to my friend's apartment eventually. I have a feeling that group behind her was catcalling and being rude because of how she was dressed and she was walking faster to get away from them. When she was walking next to JM after he caught up with her, I still see that same determined walk. Now what happens after that I don't really know.

 

[Jmm124567]

Newbie here with a first post. I was puzzling over some of the confusing details about Hannah's movements that night, but looking at Google Maps again with the information that the second party was at The Pointe Apts really made things come together in my mind. One poster said that from The Pointe, HG could have practically seen the GrandMarc apts, but it appears that The Pointe is really quite a bit further east on 14th St, after it becomes Madison in fact. So I started thinking about how some people really do almost completely lack a natural sense of direction; I had a boyfriend once who always would think he was headed in the opposite direction to where he thought he was going. It got to the point where I suggested that when he had to make a choice for a turn, he should just head the opposite way from what his first instinct told him.

Anyway, the more I read different posts and looked at the map, the more I began see the scenario like this: When she left The Pointe, she accidentally went to the right on Madison rather than left. Without realizing she was going the wrong direction, she made another right, as she would do if she were really heading the correct direction back toward her apt complex. This would bring her down Preston till it connected with Grady and she saw McGrady's, but felt kind of silly at not being able to figure out where she was and thus said she was just walking. When she goes off camera at McGrady's and the other people kind of stare in that direction, I suspect she was throwing up in the parking area. This may have made her feel temporarily better and she set off, again thinking she was going in the right direction but actually heading further southeast on Preston. Then she ran through that deserted section where the Shell station is because she was really scared by that point. Maybe when she hit the point where the cross-streets started to go back up in number (i.e. when she crossed over 1st street and was on the mall) she started to think she might be headed in the right direction again toward 15th Street. The way I interpret the way she's walking on the mall is that determined kind of stride when someone knows they're not in the right place but wants to pretend like they belong and know what they're doing and where they're going. I did the same thing one time on a visit to NYC when I was lost and just affected a look like "Yeah I know where I am and where I'm going" and just kept walking westward which I knew would get me to my friend's apartment eventually. I have a feeling that group behind her was catcalling and being rude because of how she was dressed and she was walking faster to get away from them. When she was walking next to JM after he caught up with her, I still see that same determined walk. Now what happens after that I don't really know.

Here's the thing though that a lot of people seem to forget: HG arrived at McGrady's walking up Preston in the opposite direction of the DTM.

Based on this here is a map showing the direction she must have walked in:

 

[ThinkHard]

FWIW here is my riff on things. Super long, apologies.

HG gets seriously lost when leaving that second party as she attempts to walk home. This seems crazy, but based on what I have lived through and seen in others when extremely drunk, the more familiar you are with your surroundings the more confused and disoriented you can become. I call it the Privet Drive effect (see Harry Potter). You are more complacent when comfortable with where you are and houses, apartments, cars, porches, street corners, and doors all sort of look alike worsening your disorientation.

At 11:50 or 12:15 she declares she will walk home alone. Although a mere block from home, she makes a wrong turn and doesn't see her building, but she doesn't notice. She only feels it is close; no worries, so she keeps going. Even though she gets further from home, all is good because she is so close. Being in a neighborhood lulls her. Kinda like getting lost in a desert; being surrounded by what is familiar and the same, but instead of endless sand, it is rows of houses with some apts. She don't notice how much time has elapsed, and she is so focused on getting home like every other time; nothing feels "off'. Each corner will be "her" corner until she is utterly lost. She really has no idea of how far or how long she has wandered.

By now texting friends, and when she gets to McGrady's it is SNAFU because she has left her comfort zone of homes. She actually looks most vulnerable and scared at this point, IMO. She has no clue where she is; hence the seeking behaviors. She is relying on her phone to help, and trying to be casual about looking to street signs. She is so intent on orienting herself she stumbles off the curb. She goes toward the entrance maybe to see if a menu is posted or something to help her figure out how far she has overshot home and where the heck she is.

An employee offers help, and HG gives him an "I am just walking". In her mind she is just walking home; no biggie. I thought it weird she would decline help, but I think that based on how she was portrayed in media, this is not at all unusual. HG is extremely self reliant, exacting, and in control; not to mention invincible as we all are at age eighteen. She also knows that adults or authority figures expect her to not end up in this situation, so she kinda tries to downplay she is lost to others. She is only comfortable being that vulnerable with her friends.

I sense she runs at the Shell station not because it is dodgy, but because she needs to sober up. If she is going to get herself home, she needs to suck it up and get lucid. An athlete knows that running will release endorphins and clear up the brain fog super fast, and this works for her every time.

By the time we see her on the DM, she has a long, confident, purposeful stride. I now see purposeful really as more her conviction to get herself home. I also sense she is "faking" it a bit. Inside she feels scared and out of her safety zone, but she needs to keep it under control because that is how she rolls. I just had the thought too that maybe a friend suggested she go the mall because it is lighted, more people around, and to walk around to get her bearings and they would text her back home block by block. Or maybe she decide this. It also helped to be in a bright, less familiar environment; she is out of that lull zone. It helps continue what the running started; the adrenalin keeps flowing which further clears her head.

As for talking to JM, he was not an authority type but seemed like he could have been a student. Maybe she told him she was lost; what else could she do now that her cell battery was done for? He could have said, as luck would have it, he used to drive a cab, so he could get her home or drop her near there. I think he likely bought waters for them, btw. No way HG would have added more alcohol to the mix at this point.

This is full of holes of course, but this all that makes sense to me.

Also waters wouldn't have shown up on the sales receipt!

 

[ThinkHard]

Ok, so I have been re watching videos, and I was looking over some of the time frame we do know....she was at Mcgradys at 1245, and had made it to the downtown mall roughly by 1am.

But here's the thing, I did walking directions on my phone btw mcgradys and the DM....and the time was 19min.

In order for HG to get to the DM in the time she did, she had to know where she was going, and walk there very quickly.

My point is, even if she was wandering around lost before McGradys, when she left Mcgrady's she not only knew where she was going but how to get there.

 

[ThinkHard]

Then I looked at the map posted above in this thread...and the part about coming the wrong way on Preston.

I just had a new theory: what if the whole time she was walking, her destination WAS the DM, but she was a little drunk, and in the dark "the way" didnt seem as familiar so she got mixed up and turned around, and when she came out on Preston and saw McGrady's (a key landmark she knew), she new where she was...but had too pee, so tried to use their bathroom. (And perhaps relieved herself behind a car....I know I resorted to that a few desperate times in college)....then continued on.

I was thinking about the running...I know sometimes when I'm walking by myself, but am anxious to get somewhere, and I don't think anyone is looking, I'll start running a little bit, then go back to walking cause I feel silly. I dunno just a thought.

 

[Jmm124567]

Ok, so I have been re watching videos, and I was looking over some of the time frame we do know....she was at Mcgradys at 1245, and had made it to the downtown mall roughly by 1am.

But here's the thing, I did walking directions on my phone btw mcgradys and the DM....and the time was 19min.

In order for HG to get to the DM in the time she did, she had to know where she was going, and walk there very quickly.

My point is, even if she was wandering around lost before McGradys, when she left Mcgrady's she not only knew where she was going but how to get there.

Google Maps says it is a 15 minute walk.

I also get the feeling that she may have known she was going to the DTM. I find the right turn onto 2nd St. NW to be possibly telling. That street is the first street leading into the DTM from the direction HG was walking. I don't think that was just some random turn. Its like HG knew where she was walking.

 

[MJPeony]

Google Maps says it is a 15 minute walk.

I also get the feeling that she may have known she was going to the DTM. I find the right turn onto 2nd St. NW to be possibly telling. That street is the first street leading into the DTM from the direction HG was walking. I don't think that was just some random turn. Its like HG knew where she was walking.

BBM.
I said something similar up thread. Yes, starting to think she was in fact knowingly going to the DM.

 

[JdeerG]

Conductor 71, I would never believe someone could get that drunk and confused in a local area until I did it to myself early September. I left a house and was walking down dark streets I know but had no clue where I was. I had only consumed alcohol. She looks more sober than I was, but I had no idea where I was. I left my purse and my phone. I finally found a road I knew and I saw a gas station! I called someone to come get me from there. Why did I do that? I have no idea. I was not drugged and all I had was beer. So, sometimes it just happens.

 

[OliveEliot]

cool map, JMM! I'll have to learn how to do that. What I was trying to explain in my too-long post, though was that I think she first started going toward the mall not from where you've started the blue arrows but instead from way at the top of your map--indeed, off the top of the map. She was last seen at The Pointe Apts, which are on Madison Avenue, and so if I could put arrows on there I would show her first walking east on Madison, then southeast on Preston next to BTW park. Preston runs into Grady, but below (east) of where McGrady's pub. That's what explains why she was walking toward McGrady's from the opposite direction of where the student living areas are. (In other words, I believe she hadn't been walking in that direction very long on Grady). It's only after the McGrady's incident that I think she went a long distance down Preston toward the Downtown Mall. Hope that theory makes sense to someone.

 

[ILOKAL]

cool map, JMM! I'll have to learn how to do that. What I was trying to explain in my too-long post, though was that I think she first started going toward the mall not from where you've started the blue arrows but instead from way at the top of your map--indeed, off the top of the map. She was last seen at The Pointe Apts, which are on Madison Avenue, and so if I could put arrows on there I would show her first walking east on Madison, then southeast on Preston next to BTW park. Preston runs into Grady, but below (east) of where McGrady's pub. That's what explains why she was walking toward McGrady's from the opposite direction of where the student living areas are. (In other words, I believe she hadn't been walking in that direction very long on Grady). It's only after the McGrady's incident that I think she went a long distance down Preston toward the Downtown Mall. Hope that theory makes sense to someone.

Yes that makes sense. Maybe JMM can make another cool map showing the route you describe from beginning at The Pointe Apartments and ending at the DTM at the area where she entered the mall. I wondered myself if perhaps one of the streets changed names and had asked if Wertland did but no one replied. I didn't know 14th changed to Madison. Thanks, and welcome to WS!

 

[Ollie]

What business did JM have?

On WS thread JLM what we know of him#2 #128 JM Held taxi lisence for 2007-2012;#190 JM's taxi found on farm;#248 JM requested taxi lisence de-activated on 8-2-10-Taxi lisence filed under JM's name,listing 24xx Ponderosa Trail,C'ville as the DBA address as of 2010(#582); #841 2005 JM holds taxi permit confirmed by Charlottesville Comissioner of Revenue thru 06,07,08,09(#896). His taxi lisence was de-activated but not revoked ,so he probably still considered himself a taxi driver.I'm still searching for the link to his taxi business cards. On WS JLM what we know about him #1 link#233 JM's business profile ;#385 -386 JM past encounters riding in his taxi #387 JM gave everyone in the car his number ,in case they ever needed a ride #433-34-35 JM in trouble with taxi co.for stopping women on the streets offering them free rides

 

[ThinkHard]

cool map, JMM! I'll have to learn how to do that. What I was trying to explain in my too-long post, though was that I think she first started going toward the mall not from where you've started the blue arrows but instead from way at the top of your map--indeed, off the top of the map. She was last seen at The Pointe Apts, which are on Madison Avenue, and so if I could put arrows on there I would show her first walking east on Madison, then southeast on Preston next to BTW park. Preston runs into Grady, but below (east) of where McGrady's pub. That's what explains why she was walking toward McGrady's from the opposite direction of where the student living areas are. (In other words, I believe she hadn't been walking in that direction very long on Grady). It's only after the McGrady's incident that I think she went a long distance down Preston toward the Downtown Mall. Hope that theory makes sense to someone.

I think I follow.

the other thing is, when I just did walking directions btw The Pointe Apartments and McGradys the walking time was ONLY 10 minutes!

She left the last apartment at 12:15....and wasnt seen on cameras till 12:45 in front of McGradys.

I think when she left the Pointe apartment she had every intention in the world of walking to the downtown mall, and not back to her apartment. And I think that is why she refused the offer for an escort home.

I think she thought she would be at the DM much sooner, not 30 min before last call.

I am not saying I have any idea why she was planning to go to the DM. Just that given the time frames, I feel quite certain that was indeed a planned destination.

I think she got mixed up walking, saw McGradys, knew where she was, then high tailed it to the downtown mall, after trying to use the bathroom.

I don't think Mcgrady's was ever a planned stopped.

 

[ThinkHard]

On WS thread JLM what we know of him#2 #128 JM Held taxi lisence for 2007-2012;#190 JM's taxi found on farm;#248 JM requested taxi lisence de-activated on 8-2-10-Taxi lisence filed under JM's name,listing 24xx Ponderosa Trail,C'ville as the DBA address as of 2010(#582); #841 2005 JM holds taxi permit confirmed by Charlottesville Comissioner of Revenue thru 06,07,08,09(#896). His taxi lisence was de-activated but not revoked ,so he probably still considered himself a taxi driver.I'm still searching for the link to his taxi business cards. On WS JLM what we know about him #1 link#233 JM's business profile ;#385 -386 JM past encounters riding in his taxi #387 JM gave everyone in the car his number ,in case they ever needed a ride #433-34-35 JM in trouble with taxi co.for stopping women on the streets offering them free rides

You claimed he had registered a business though? What business did he registered? We are all well aware he held taxi permits during that time frame, and that he worked for access cabs. But what business did HE register?

 

[Ollie]

check JLM What we Know about him #1 link #233; what I think happened with his taxi ,he worked for Access taxi and yellow taxi and when he got let go ,he got a business lisence of his own.

 

[ThinkHard]

check JLM What we Know about him #1 link #233; what I think happened with his taxi ,he worked for Access taxi and yellow taxi and when he got let go ,he got a business lisence of his own.

I did check that, and clicked the link...but it doesn't look like he did too much with that business beyond registering it. https://www.dandb.com/businessdirectory/dbajesselmatthewjr-charlottesville-va-9719412.html

I'm also confused by the taxi dates, I know there is conflicting reports, but HE submitted a request to end his taxi license in 2010. If he initiated NO LONGER holding a taxi permit...why would he register a business in the same yr, to do the very same thing?

<modsnip>

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

Newbie here with a first post. I was puzzling over some of the confusing details about Hannah's movements that night, but looking at Google Maps again with the information that the second party was at The Pointe Apts really made things come together in my mind. One poster said that from The Pointe, HG could have practically seen the GrandMarc apts, but it appears that The Pointe is really quite a bit further east on 14th St, after it becomes Madison in fact. So I started thinking about how some people really do almost completely lack a natural sense of direction; I had a boyfriend once who always would think he was headed in the opposite direction to where he thought he was going. It got to the point where I suggested that when he had to make a choice for a turn, he should just head the opposite way from what his first instinct told him.

Anyway, the more I read different posts and looked at the map, the more I began see the scenario like this: When she left The Pointe, she accidentally went to the right on Madison rather than left. Without realizing she was going the wrong direction, she made another right, as she would do if she were really heading the correct direction back toward her apt complex. This would bring her down Preston till it connected with Grady and she saw McGrady's, but felt kind of silly at not being able to figure out where she was and thus said she was just walking. When she goes off camera at McGrady's and the other people kind of stare in that direction, I suspect she was throwing up in the parking area. This may have made her feel temporarily better and she set off, again thinking she was going in the right direction but actually heading further southeast on Preston. Then she ran through that deserted section where the Shell station is because she was really scared by that point. Maybe when she hit the point where the cross-streets started to go back up in number (i.e. when she crossed over 1st street and was on the mall) she started to think she might be headed in the right direction again toward 15th Street. The way I interpret the way she's walking on the mall is that determined kind of stride when someone knows they're not in the right place but wants to pretend like they belong and know what they're doing and where they're going. I did the same thing one time on a visit to NYC when I was lost and just affected a look like "Yeah I know where I am and where I'm going" and just kept walking westward which I knew would get me to my friend's apartment eventually. I have a feeling that group behind her was catcalling and being rude because of how she was dressed and she was walking faster to get away from them. When she was walking next to JM after he caught up with her, I still see that same determined walk. Now what happens after that I don't really know.

The Point is on Madison? Could you look at this map and see if we're talking about the same location? 225 14th St NW

I don't see Madison at all on this map, but when I searched it, it was further north.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/2...2!3m1!1s0x89b38648123fea2f:0x5256e194145178c4

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

I think I follow.

the other thing is, when I just did walking directions btw The Pointe Apartments and McGradys the walking time was ONLY 10 minutes!

She left the last apartment at 12:15....and wasnt seen on cameras till 12:45 in front of McGradys.

I think when she left the Pointe apartment she had every intention in the world of walking to the downtown mall, and not back to her apartment. And I think that is why she refused the offer for an escort home.

I think she thought she would be at the DM much sooner, not 30 min before last call.

I am not saying I have any idea why she was planning to go to the DM. Just that given the time frames, I feel quite certain that was indeed a planned destination.

I think she got mixed up walking, saw McGradys, knew where she was, then high tailed it to the downtown mall, after trying to use the bathroom.

I don't think Mcgrady's was ever a planned stopped.

I know...where the heck was she between 12:15 and 12:45??

 

[ThinkHard]

I just wanted to add this...because I thought it was interesting regarding the registered business Ollie mentioned.

Ponderosa trail road is off of OLR, 5 miles north.

 

[ThinkHard]

Close up

Its also a dead end road, and he appears to be the last house on the street...very private.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

Here's the thing though that a lot of people seem to forget: HG arrived at McGrady's walking up Preston in the opposite direction of the DTM.

Based on this here is a map showing the direction she must have walked in:

View attachment 62817

Thanks for the map! I have seen others write that HG was on Preston in the opposite direction of the DTM, but I can't figure that one out. The street that runs in front of McGrady's is Grady...I can't see her on the video prior to her walking towards McGrady's Pub on Grady Ave. Am I missing something?