Happenings of December 26

[eileenhawkeye]

I would not be surprised if JR did not have stashed money in offshore accounts, like the Bahamas or other places. That way he would have access to it, and if ever he and PR went their separate ways, that money would not be available to her as a settlement in case of a divorce. PR lived 10 years after JB's death, but I doubt they even knew how many years she had left when JB was murdered. JR could have thought she had little time left, and it wouldn't matter if she was sentenced for the crime.
According to them they were poor paupers, and surely thought everyone would pity them.
In LW's own words he said the Ramsey case made him more money than some lawyers made in a lifetime. They spent a fortune remodeling the Atlanta house - I wonder if that house ever sold, and how much was paid for it?
The lawsuits made BR wealthy, so JR didn't have to worry about that, like most parents do.
Since the GJ verdict to charge both of them, it seems odd that we have not seen JR on the circuit of TV stations. Could it be that he doesn't want any interviewer to ask him that one question, which is, "what do you think of the GJ decision to indict you and your wife?" I know he said it's just more drama, which is a pretty weak statement since the R's were the main cause of the drama. I would have liked to see someone ask him what he thinks would have happened if they were not worth millions.

I think the reason why John only issued that one-line statement to People was so the whole thing would go away. The last thing he wanted was to drag it out. It's the same as when the news came out about LE wanting to re-interview Burke but he refused; John didn't talk to any media then either. Then again, I don't think that media coverage scares John at this point.

The thing I wonder is that when John does do an interview again...and that could be a couple of years from now...are they even going to mention the indictment? I am sure he will set his regulations, so it wouldn't surprise me if it doesn't come up or if it's a really easy question about it.

 

[Chrishope]

If he had done that, he wouldn't have been able to try to set Patsy up as the killer, and it would have had to be at a time of day that might have had Patsy out of the house, usually regular daytime hours or early evening - not likely for an 'intruder'. Maybe could have staged it as an accident, or as Burke doing it accidentally, but wouldn't there have been way too much explaining to do - especially with regard to the sexual aspect?



Remember,JRr was on regular prescription medication for depression. And, admitted by himself, was still experiencing deeply depressive times related to beth's death just prior to jb's death. Plus, narcissistic minds think that whatever they believe is right, is right. If JR's narcissistic thinking was clouded with medications, would he have been sharp enough to construct the perfect plan?


Right, he already had plans to go to MI, since JR said he wanted them to use a commercial flight, to get cheap tickets, which would have required a two week advance booking, minimum.



Exactly - if it was going to be the regular sort of Christmas routine, with the trip to Orlando following, and the older r kids were able to set up a family meeting for Stewart Long, why not just as you would think - either Boulder or at one of the other places. Let's say early in December JRr is becoming convinced that JB must die - for whatever reason his mind believes. At about the same time, Melinda calls with the news that they can get a couple of days off at Christmas time and would like to come to boulder to have the official meeting of the fiance'. Jr, being the calm, collected one, responds that he'll talk to patsy and get back to her with plans. In the meantime, jr reasons that if he can get his older kids to plan to meet up with them in MN by commercial flight, then they'll all go to MI, he'll have a reason to have the plane all readied for a flight, and would not have to use it to transport them to boulder, but would have it available to use as part of the kidnapping plan (delivery of the ransom and dumping JB's body). If his plan would not have been interrupted, he could have convinced Patsy to take Burke (for their safety) on to MI as planned. Simple to call Archuletta and ask him to take Patsy and Burke on to meet the olde rR kids in MN in the other company plane, because he had some unexpected business to attend to, and then would fly himself up later to join them. Patsy, of course, would tell everyone what had happened as they were enroute from MN to MI, swearing them all to silence.



Right, he would have had plenty of time to convincemPatsy to take Burke, go with Archuletta, and have everyone tucked safely away in MI, waiting to hear from him - and he would have had a good window of time to get the ransom money himself, and do whatever else he was planning to do in that time frame. By asking for his bonus amount as the ransom amount, he would have been able to get the cash himself during that day - just as the ransom note was demanding. Jr would have schmoozed the banker. I personally feel he would have stashed the money somewhere and went about spending it casually over the next years as pocket cash. Jb's body would have been flown somewhere and ditched.



Perhaps, but I believe JR was writing the note to appear as if Patsy wrote it in order to have her take the fall in a back-up plan in case something went awry.



I agree.



I believe JR thought he would get away with it. But, because of his business experience, he had to have a back up plan, (which I think was initially to let Patsy take the fall, thinking she'd probably succumb to ovarian cancer anyway) but because of his precarious emotional/mental state the possibility of having to make a lone escape might have also played in his mind. This is the part I don't think he had given much thought to, since he planned to make the kidnapping work.



I agree.



Yes, but this time, if he flew off into an unknown place, he'd be a murderer on the run and in hiding, so how would he access any he'd left behind or hope to make more very easily?

All just :moo: & my :twocents:

MWM,

Rather than respond point by point, I'm just going to lay out the reasons that I don't think your theory is correct.

Your theory, if I understand correctly, is that the murder was planned well in advance, and that the trip to Charlevoix was part and parcel of the plan. More specifically, the purpose of sending the older kids to MI was to make sure they wouldn't be in CO on the 25th.

The first problem is that there is no reason the murder had to be on the 25th. It was just JR/PR/BR/JBR at home since the 19th, so the murder could have been done the 19th, 20th, 21st, etc.

The second problem is that it's very unlikely either of the children -JAR/MR- were planning to go to Boulder for Christmas. So you have JR preparing for an event very unlikely to occur. We know JAR left on the 19th to go be with his mother for the Holidays, so he definitely wasn't planning to be in Boulder the 25th. MR and her fiancee were already working at a hospital in Marietta, and it would be natural to spend the holiday with one's birth mother, especially since her brother was coming. There is no evidence at all that MR was even considering being in Boulder for Christmas.

The 3rd problem is that even if JR wants to make sure they aren't in Boulder, there are better ways to go about it than a trip to MI. Since JR and family were scheduled to fly to Orlando on the 28th, why not plan a get together in the Atlanta area? With Daddy coming to see them a few days after Christmas, there would be no reason to fly to Bolder and then back to Atlanta. They'd just wait in Marietta.

Even better, why wouldn't JR invite them to join in the trip to Disney? Again, with a meet-up planned for a few days after Christmas, no one is going to fly to Boulder just to turn around and fly to Orlando.

The fourth problem is you have JR planning a murder he knows he can't get away with. He's planning to spend his life as a fugitive somewhere that does not have an extradition treaty with the US. I'd suggest that if he knows he can't get away with it he'd probably decide not to do it.

The final problem is you have the trip to MI serving a second purpose - an excuse to have the plane ready. But it's JR's plane, and he can simply claim he may have an important business meeting that may require him to fly on the 26th. He can either go ahead and use the plane, or not, depending on how events unfold. He doesn't need JAR/MR winging their way to MI in order to have the plane ready.

IMO it's very improbable that the trip to MI was any part of a planned murder.


As an aside, I'm assuming the reason for flying to MN is that MN is about as far as a small private plane could go from CO.

 

[midwest mama]

Chrishope - This forum is a great place to share thoughts, ideas and theories. I respect everyone who spends time thinking through the aspects of this crime in an attempt to further the process of justice for JonBenet. Your responses to some of my thoughts are provoking and not without credibility. Though we may not agree on some aspects at this time, it still matters that we can believe JR was involved with this crime as a chargeable perpetrator.

Now, let's just hope those of us on this forum who believe JR should have to be taken to trial one day, will also be able to hear the total and final truth.

IMO, if JB's being killed on the 26th was the result of an act of rage or accidental, then there is no significance that can be tied to Christmas. But if it happened on the 26th (night of Christmas) for a purpose of some sort, then it had to be premeditated.

And the one thing that I find makes me very suspicious about this being intentionally done for Christmas is JR making sure the date on JB's headstone was Dec. 25th, 'so the world would know what they did to our child at a time of peace and hope'. (I may not have the wording exact, but it's in DOI). Patsy loved Christmas - she was "all about Christmas" according to her statement in DOI. If JR was jumping off the deep end psychologically over losing Beth, and also wanting to hurt Patsy in the worst way possible, Christmas would have served his purposes for a premeditated act, IMO.

Also, IMO, JR thought he would get away with it. But, JR's business experience would have made him realize he should have a back up plan in the event that circumstances beyond his control (though he also probably thought that idea very remote) interrupted any step of the plan along the way. IF John Ramsey would have thought for one moment that he was about to be discovered as the killer of his daughter, and he thought he would have been able to get away by using his plane, he would have in a heartbeat, and that's my opinion only, but based on the fact that a narcissist (which I think he is) simply cannot face defeat with any dignity. Admission of error or guilt is rarely acceptable, and any alternative is possible.

 

[deca]

I personally think picking the 25th was all part of the propaganda/drama campaign JMO. The more the world felt bad for the Ramsey's over the death of JBR, the more it would seem the Ramsey's had nothing to do with it.

 

[DeeDee249]

I personally think picking the 25th was all part of the propaganda/drama campaign JMO. The more the world felt bad for the Ramsey's over the death of JBR, the more it would seem the Ramsey's had nothing to do with it.

Actually, JR admitted they chose to put the 25th on JB's grave so
"the world would see what it did to our daughter on Christmas Day". His words.

 

[midwest mama]

Can someone help figure out why a call to Archuleta by JR would have been taken by the co-pilot? Another source said Archuletta was already on the way to the airport when the first call was made, and Archuleta called the Ramsey's a few minutes later.

So, was there to be a co-pilot for the flight to Michigan with Archuleta as the pilot? And JR would not have flown the plane? But been just a passenger?
If so, why would JR have gone to the airport, for 3+ hours on Christmas day to check over the plane, if he was not going to do any of the flying or co-piloting on the 26th?

Reference from acandyrose.com:

Mike Archuleta
(Boulder, Colorado)
(Personal Pilot)
John Ramsey called Archuleta early 12-26-1996 but pilot was in transit, Co-pilot Richard Bjelkovig took the call. When Archuleta called back, hysterical Patsy answered the phone. Archuleta was to notify the commercial airline the Ramsey's children were arriving from Atlanta and leave word to call their father

 

[Darlene733510]

When Archleta was in transit was that when he went by the R house and JR gave him a box. Was that box checked by BPD, and was it evidence to get rid of?

 

[UKGuy]

Can someone help figure out why a call to Archuleta by JR would have been taken by the co-pilot? Another source said Archuletta was already on the way to the airport when the first call was made, and Archuleta called the Ramsey's a few minutes later.

So, was there to be a co-pilot for the flight to Michigan with Archuleta as the pilot? And JR would not have flown the plane? But been just a passenger?
If so, why would JR have gone to the airport, for 3+ hours on Christmas day to check over the plane, if he was not going to do any of the flying or co-piloting on the 26th?

Reference from acandyrose.com:

Mike Archuleta
(Boulder, Colorado)
(Personal Pilot)
John Ramsey called Archuleta early 12-26-1996 but pilot was in transit, Co-pilot Richard Bjelkovig took the call. When Archuleta called back, hysterical Patsy answered the phone. Archuleta was to notify the commercial airline the Ramsey's children were arriving from Atlanta and leave word to call their father

midwest mama,
It might simply be, only the co-pilot was available to take the call? Yes JR may not have been piloting his plane. He is on record as having very poor eyesight, hence the requirement for a pilot.

From memory JR was filling the plane up with stuff to take with them on vacation?


.

 

[Nom de plume]

midwest mama,
It might simply be, only the co-pilot was available to take the call? Yes JR may not have been piloting his plane. He is on record as having very poor eyesight, hence the requirement for a pilot.

From memory JR was filling the plane up with stuff to take with them on vacation?

.

BBM

For three HOURS? It never would have made it off the ground loaded with that much stuff!

 

[deca]

Actually, JR admitted they chose to put the 25th on JB's grave so
"the world would see what it did to our daughter on Christmas Day". His words.

Well, his words don't mean much to me.

I guess what I was trying to say was can best be described as showboating.

Imagine you are sitting with your happy little family and hear about a murder of a little girl: tragic. Imagine you hear that it happened on Christmas Day, a day that for most US families is special and happy. Now the murder seems even more tragic and you feel even WORSE for the poor parents who lost their child.

Now maybe JR wasn't thinking that far ahead, but part of me wonders if he picked the 25th to garner more sympathy from the public.
JMO

 

[madeleine]

maybe he wanted more sympathy from someone else...God....and now I am talking about the premeditated scenario....you never know what religious fanatics (the ones who interpret things to suit them) have in their mind when doing such horrible things in the name of God,etc.....maybe she was some sort of sacrifice?I really DO believe that someone like JR or PR is capable of crimes "in the name of...." after listening to them and how they think about it.....and how they TWIST what the Bible says,etc

 

[madeleine]

what I am actually thinking is.....

you have JB murdered Xmas night
then you have 2 people who twist in their favor most of the things they say when it comes to religion/forgiveness,better place,etc...they also use religious arguments as excuses for what they do or don't
and then you have a secret santa visit.....

I don't believe in coincidences
I've always felt that the fact that she was murdered on Xmas day has a significance,I just can't put my finger on it....

 

[madeleine]

I know that we've been there before and that some disagree with me but I just can't get over this and it's one of the reasons I think this might have been premeditated....if it was just an accident NO NORMAL PARENT would have been able to do such a cruel cold aggressive staging!!!
okay,you're panicked,I understand...still!there are so many other ways out!if it was an accident ,you still love your child deeply,you wouldn't mess with her body!!!better bury her somewhere,honor some memory somehow,dunno!

 

[Darlene733510]

If this was pre-meditated, one of the reasons I could apply is that because of the Christmas holiday, perhaps they thought the BPD would be working with less people. What is hard for me to understand is why they planned so much in such a short time. The MI trip, back to CO, and then the red boat. Then I think of having to get in touch with JAR, his Sister and her fiancée to tell them to go to MN and they would all go to MI together. Then they show up just as the R's are leaving the house.(Did I get that right). I guesss their flight was changed when someone made a phone call.
I still have a hard time believing parents could do such horrendous injuries to their Daughter, but I still find myself saying that the only thing that makes sense is a jealous Brother who hated his popular little Sister, and he would do it just to have her out of their lives, probably knowing his parents would protect him, and cover up for him.

 

[ozazure]

I know that we've been there before and that some disagree with me but I just can't get over this and it's one of the reasons I think this might have been premeditated....if it was just an accident NO NORMAL PARENT would have been able to do such a cruel cold aggressive staging!!!
okay,you're panicked,I understand...still!there are so many other ways out!if it was an accident ,you still love your child deeply,you wouldn't mess with her body!!!better bury her somewhere,honor some memory somehow,dunno!

I agree no normal parent would do it, you'd be on the phone ringing for help the instance you saw something was amiss with her. I think however that the dysfunction was so entrenched that no one was "normal", whomever staged that night had a long history of coping with the knowledge of aberrant behaviours, and hiding them from the outside, including re-committing to a decision time and again to keep this under wraps. By the time one or two of the parents were assisting in this subterfuge, I think they had time to consider what the truth being known and requiring their acknowledgement would feel like, and they preferred this option.

 

[UKGuy]

If this was pre-meditated, one of the reasons I could apply is that because of the Christmas holiday, perhaps they thought the BPD would be working with less people. What is hard for me to understand is why they planned so much in such a short time. The MI trip, back to CO, and then the red boat. Then I think of having to get in touch with JAR, his Sister and her fiancée to tell them to go to MN and they would all go to MI together. Then they show up just as the R's are leaving the house.(Did I get that right). I guesss their flight was changed when someone made a phone call.
I still have a hard time believing parents could do such horrendous injuries to their Daughter, but I still find myself saying that the only thing that makes sense is a jealous Brother who hated his popular little Sister, and he would do it just to have her out of their lives, probably knowing his parents would protect him, and cover up for him.

Darlene733510,
As much as I can accept a BDI theory, even promote one myself. I seriously doubt BR, with premeditation, killed JonBenet.

The forensic evidence, including the amateurish staging, all suggests an unplanned homicide.

I think JonBenet's death was a sexual assault gone wrong, followed by multiple staging, with all the world attributing aspects of the staging to their favorite RDI or IDI theory. I reckon its that simple!


.

 

[Chrishope]

Darlene733510,
As much as I can accept a BDI theory, even promote one myself. I seriously doubt BR, with premeditation, killed JonBenet.

The forensic evidence, including the amateurish staging, all suggests an unplanned homicide.

I think JonBenet's death was a sexual assault gone wrong, followed by multiple staging, with all the world attributing aspects of the staging to their favorite RDI or IDI theory. I reckon its that simple!


.

The staging, especially the confused co-mingled kidnapping/sex murder, tell us very clearly it was not planned ahead of time.

 

[UKGuy]

The staging, especially the confused co-mingled kidnapping/sex murder, tell us very clearly it was not planned ahead of time.

Chrishope,
Absolutely, something we can agree on.

 

[midwest mama]

Glad to see both Chrishope and UKGuy having some dialogue that seems to be meshing - not just here, but also on another thread. You both have very good forensic minds, so both of them bouncing off each other and considering evidence could end up with an awesome outcome!

Now, the question I keep coming back to time and again, as do some others on this forum, is why in the name of heaven after a couple of hectic days celebrating the holidays - probably special Church services, parties, dinners, gifts everywhere, clothing in the process of being gathered for more holiday celebrations, the excitement of trip plans tossed into the mix, with the promise of more presents, would there even be a thought for an off-the-wall sex game to be squeezed into the activities? By children, sometime after midnite, according to a timeline estimate??

 

[UKGuy]

Glad to see both Chrishope and UKGuy having some dialogue that seems to be meshing - not just here, but also on another thread. You both have very good forensic minds, so both of them bouncing off each other and considering evidence could end up with an awesome outcome!

Now, the question I keep coming back to time and again, as do some others on this forum, is why in the name of heaven after a couple of hectic days celebrating the holidays - probably special Church services, parties, dinners, gifts everywhere, clothing in the process of being gathered for more holiday celebrations, the excitement of trip plans tossed into the mix, with the promise of more presents, would there even be a thought for an off-the-wall sex game to be squeezed into the activities? By children, sometime after midnite, according to a timeline estimate??

midwest mama,
One possibility is that it was an ongoing activity, say from 12/23, and 12/25 was its culmination, something patently got out of hand.

.