Happenings of December 26

[midwest mama]

"Very strange"? Almost a "juvenile" way to respond, perhaps?

Just sayin'.........

What's the most popular theory of JB's position with regard to the perp of the head blow?

Was she most likely struck from behind?

If struck from the side, was it most likely an overhand blow?

Was she facing the perp and the blow was a left hand blow?

If it was an adult and there was a scream, just physical force of a hand over the mouth should have shut her up, but without doing something that would ensure silencing her from that time forward, the minute a hand was released she would have screamed again.

IMO, an adult would have bashed her in order to make sure she was silenced - at least until the whole incident could be taken care of, and the attacker was assured she would not then go on to "tell" about it.

If Patsy was on record of making JB scream and holler in the bathroom, and everyone survived the situation repeatedly, if it was Patsy putting her through the same thing, why would she worry if JB screamed again that night? No reason to shut her up - the household was used to hearing them during screaming bouts.

Now, if it was BR who hit her for screaming, he would have had to be pretty close at hand with a weapon at the ready. Being that close, would he have had the leverage needed to deal a blow severe enough to cause the fracture?

Would it be possible there was a scream, and enough time without more screams ensuing that BR could have sought out something to hit her with - as in JB trying to run away and him chasing? If so, would the physics allow for a blow that hard to be dealt by BR on the run?

The R's also knew BR would strike out at JB, according to published accounts of "accidents" and vacation separations. So, BR, IMO would not have intended to hit her hard enough to totally silence her. If it was a knee-jerk reaction to her scream, I think it would have been more in keeping with his previous actions - like otg said, a juvenile reaction to strike.

IMO, JB almost had to have been very near the perp, if it was a scream that caused it, and the physical strength needed to wield that blow came as a result of a need to cause her to become unable to do any further screaming or attempting to escape.

The type of blow that it took to do that type of damage took a split second of rationalization, and IMO, neither PR or BR would have had any reason to even consider wielding a blow that hard.

 

[Chrishope]

"Very strange"? Almost a "juvenile" way to respond, perhaps?

Just sayin'.........

Possibly. I would agree that as a response to a scream this is more likely a juvenile act than an adult one.

I have to say though, that I think it's an unlikely response even for a kid.

 

[Chrishope]

It seems a little difficult to say definitively what the R’s intent was in “staging” JB that night.

It is difficult, and especially after considering multiple scenarios proposed.

We do know there is a RN, so it's reasonable to say that a faked kidnapping scenario was being staged.

I think we might agree that the signs of sexual assault are not visible until she is on the coroner's table. So we might say that a pervy sex murder scenario has not been staged?

There were so many decisions, but I agree that PR probably didn’t want JB’s body “dumped” somewhere.

I always have trouble with this idea. We are once again in the realm of what is "plausible" and that differs among people. I believe that if PR was involved in the murder iteself, or in agreeing to help in the staging, then she would be willing to have the body dumped.

I wonder too what constitutes "proper burial" since even if they had managed to keep the body from being discovered they could never have a funeral in the normal sense. They'd have to bury her themselves. No minister could be called in to say anything at this "service".

It was a semi- believable scenario to say she was kidnapped and then after LE left, conveniently “find” her body,

I accept that you find this semi-believable. I don't.

I don't see any reason for the killer(s) to assume LE would just leave the house after a short period. I see no reason for the killer(s) to assume the house would not be under surveillance by police, making it impossible to "find" the body without giving away that the body was in the house all along.

I don't see a reason to assume the police would not bring in tracking dogs, which would have found the body in a matter of minutes.

In short, I think once the 911 call was made, it was a foregone conclusion that the body would be found. It's hard, for me, to entertain a theory in which the body would remain undiscovered until LE left. But that's me.

But, they were under great pressure when LE wouldn’t leave, so that they could play out the rest of the scene. The “searches” of the basement alone would have given JR an ulcer.

Probably.

If you believe that JR was an innocent lamb until he finds JB’s body, when did he find it?. According to poster Bluecrab and poster Amber, JR is caught in a lie when he tells Michael Kane that he was down in the basement between 7 and 8. He has told them that there was a chair and some boxes in front of the train room when he searched and found the open or broken window. However, he doesn’t know or recall at that time that both Detective French and FW had been in the basement, both had been in the train room and neither state that they had had to move a chair and some boxes to enter, or that they had placed the chair back in place after their search. FW had searched between 6 and 6:15 am. French had looked in the train room right after arriving at 6:59, he looking for a point of entry or escape.

IOW, it is likely that JR had been in the basement before the 911 call and before FW and French searched
.
He was down there again around 10 or so, after the time a kidnapper was supposed to call and JR was missing for about an hour.

And then of course, he was on the last search at about 1:00 pm. Reports are that he hurried directly to the basement with FW and he had gone into the train room, and they moved a grate in front of a closet to look inside. That was a closet that FW did not search originally because of the grate, and FW was searching for an alive JB who was simply hiding.

The denouement: JB is found by JR, who according to FW, sees JB even before he turns on the light to the WC and JR screams.

There is probably no answer as to where JB was hidden that night, but I think it’s quite likely she was moved twice or three times. Initially, moved from the bedroom, the kitchen, or the train room or within the boiler room to where she died outside the WC. Then was her next move (the WC?, the closet?) Then perhaps moved yet again to be more visible in the WC. IDK, but it seems like JR would be the probable first or second “Mover”. By his actions he did seem to know where she was, after all.

IF BDI, BR perhaps did the hiding from where she was assaulted and knocked unconscious in the basement, to a closet or the WC. If he not only assaulted her, bashed her head and then (30 to 90 minutes later, if we believe some of the autopsy experts) strangled her that BR then calmed down from his rage and gently cleans her up before hiding her? Nah, JB was cleaned up by one of the adult R’s. One has to at least consider that “some” of the experts were correct in their timeline, that she passed away from strangulation at least 30-90 minutes after the head bash, and then was cleaned up and redressed to hide a sexual assault and then placed somewhere hidden in the basement.

The statement from PR in one of her interviews was: “I can’t see how someone could have done this to another child.” She either knows it was BR or assumes it was BR. Put that statement together with her statement in the other nationally played interview when she says, at least 2 people know who killed JB, the person who did it and the person they confided in. JR gives her an incredulous look. Interesting

 

[Chrishope]

What's the most popular theory of JB's position with regard to the perp of the head blow?

Was she most likely struck from behind?

If struck from the side, was it most likely an overhand blow?

Was she facing the perp and the blow was a left hand blow?

If it was an adult and there was a scream, just physical force of a hand over the mouth should have shut her up, but without doing something that would ensure silencing her from that time forward, the minute a hand was released she would have screamed again.

But, whatever "simulation" made her scream might also have stopped?

It might make a difference if the scream was for "help" or if it were a response to pain?

IMO, an adult would have bashed her in order to make sure she was silenced - at least until the whole incident could be taken care of, and the attacker was assured she would not then go on to "tell" about it.

If Patsy was on record of making JB scream and holler in the bathroom, and everyone survived the situation repeatedly, if it was Patsy putting her through the same thing, why would she worry if JB screamed again that night? No reason to shut her up - the household was used to hearing them during screaming bouts.

Now, if it was BR who hit her for screaming, he would have had to be pretty close at hand with a weapon at the ready. Being that close, would he have had the leverage needed to deal a blow severe enough to cause the fracture?

Would it be possible there was a scream, and enough time without more screams ensuing that BR could have sought out something to hit her with - as in JB trying to run away and him chasing? If so, would the physics allow for a blow that hard to be dealt by BR on the run?

The R's also knew BR would strike out at JB, according to published accounts of "accidents" and vacation separations. So, BR, IMO would not have intended to hit her hard enough to totally silence her. If it was a knee-jerk reaction to her scream, I think it would have been more in keeping with his previous actions - like otg said, a juvenile reaction to strike.

IMO, JB almost had to have been very near the perp, if it was a scream that caused it, and the physical strength needed to wield that blow came as a result of a need to cause her to become unable to do any further screaming or attempting to escape.

Again it might be that the scream wasn't JB's response to physical pain ? It might be that when the perp moved far enough away she dared to scream for help? (Not that I'm putting a lot of stock in the scream to begin with)

The type of blow that it took to do that type of damage took a split second of rationalization, and IMO, neither PR or BR would have had any reason to even consider wielding a blow that hard.

 

[otg]

What's the most popular theory of JB's position with regard to the perp of the head blow?

Was she most likely struck from behind?

If struck from the side, was it most likely an overhand blow?

Was she facing the perp and the blow was a left hand blow?

It’s easy to try and rationalize the position of the assailant (let’s call him/her that so we can look at this without prejudice about who it is) to JonBenet at the moment the head blow happened in almost any possible arrangement (except with her lying down on her back). The reason is that the position of their bodies is not as important as the position of her head within the arc of the swing. Knowing exactly where the depressed fracture is on her skull tells you how her head would be positioned if she were facing the assailant (Her head would have to be looking down.). If OTOH the assailant was behind her, the location of the depressed fracture tells you that her head would have to be in an upright position. Other factors that would come into play would be the height of the assailant, since we know JonBenet’s height. If she was standing, sitting, kneeling, crouching, squatting, lying (prone only -- not supine), or on all fours (I don’t know of a better word for that position), it can’t be determined by where the “hole” is in her skull because there is still a possibility of a position of the assailant to swing at her head in an arc that would coincide with what is necessary to cause it. As for handedness, I agree that it may be a factor of likelihood. However it is not a given taking into consideration the possibility of the two being offset from one another. Again, it is the position of her head that has to be considered rather than the location and position of their bodies.

If it was an adult and there was a scream, just physical force of a hand over the mouth should have shut her up, but without doing something that would ensure silencing her from that time forward, the minute a hand was released she would have screamed again.

IMO, an adult would have bashed her in order to make sure she was silenced - at least until the whole incident could be taken care of, and the attacker was assured she would not then go on to "tell" about it.

If Patsy was on record of making JB scream and holler in the bathroom, and everyone survived the situation repeatedly, if it was Patsy putting her through the same thing, why would she worry if JB screamed again that night? No reason to shut her up - the household was used to hearing them during screaming bouts.

Too much speculation for me. I just don’t know and won’t venture a guess about the motivations of each individual and what rationale might have gone through their mind at the time. I'll leave that to you and others.

Now, if it was BR who hit her for screaming, he would have had to be pretty close at hand with a weapon at the ready.

Have you read what I posted recently about what was in the area where I think it happened?

Being that close, would he have had the leverage needed to deal a blow severe enough to cause the fracture?

With the right object... absolutely. Of this I am certain.

Would it be possible there was a scream, and enough time without more screams ensuing that BR could have sought out something to hit her with - as in JB trying to run away and him chasing? If so, would the physics allow for a blow that hard to be dealt by BR on the run?

We can’t assume she was able to run, and I don’t think she could.

The R's also knew BR would strike out at JB, according to published accounts of "accidents" and vacation separations. So, BR, IMO would not have intended to hit her hard enough to totally silence her. If it was a knee-jerk reaction to her scream, I think it would have been more in keeping with his previous actions - like otg said, a juvenile reaction to strike.

People have dogs that have growled or snapped at people, but say they never thought it would bite someone until it happens. Maybe comparing to dogs is not a very good analogy, but in the same sense, parents are always shocked when something happens with their kids that they say they would have never expected. It’s only in hindsight that others will say that they should have seen little signs. As parents, we all want to think the best of our children and overlook “little problems”.

IMO, JB almost had to have been very near the perp, if it was a scream that caused it, and the physical strength needed to wield that blow came as a result of a need to cause her to become unable to do any further screaming or attempting to escape.

The type of blow that it took to do that type of damage took a split second of rationalization, and IMO, neither PR or BR would have had any reason to even consider wielding a blow that hard.

If you’ve made up your mind, I wasted my time. But then I didn’t really expect to change it. But I know you think about what you read, and you always seem to give reasonable consideration to opposing views. I just hope that maybe I said something that can get you to see that it is possible it wasn’t JR. Regardless though of who it was, take the evidence for what it is.

And as always, mwmm, I only post out of respect for your opinion. :seeya:

 

[questfortrue]

Chrishope,
It’s easier to judge the intent from the “catbird” seat of rationality. I watch movies, too, so I’m guessing here, but it seems like a standard procedure of police in the event of a kidnapping is to search the home, interview the parents, put a trap on phones. (IDK about watching the home or the cadaver dogs, but we’ll assume you’re right on that). And you’re correct that it wasn’t logical to have a kidnapping note and leave her corpse in the home---especially if the police followed standard procedure and did a thorough search of the home.

Maybe logic and rationality to this applies more easily if there is only 1 concealer of the crime. So how (I’m asking sincerely because it seems irrational to me too) did this became irrational (a body in the home and a kidnapping note). Did PR innocently jump the gun and call the police after reading the note which she didn’t write? Or did she jump the gun after having written the note because she’d been up all night and was thinking crazy? Did JR simply run out of time to clean up JB, the crime scene, etc. get her body out of the home in the light of day before the police were called? Was he thinking it could always be construed as a kidnapping gone wrong, whereby she’s killed and left in the home?

Kolar makes an interesting point in his book, that people do what they are accustomed to doing when it is an emergency or traumatic situation. JR attempts to solve the trouble they find themselves in, PR calls the police because she wants the “endorsement” of the experts or because she’s totally innocent. Maybe a second unconscious motivation, does she want JR to be found accountable by the authorities?

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
It’s easier to judge the intent from the “catbird” seat of rationality. I watch movies, too, so I’m guessing here, but it seems like a standard procedure of police in the event of a kidnapping is to search the home, interview the parents, put a trap on phones. (IDK about watching the home or the cadaver dogs, but we’ll assume you’re right on that). And you’re correct that it wasn’t logical to have a kidnapping note and leave her corpse in the home---especially if the police followed standard procedure and did a thorough search of the home.

Maybe logic and rationality to this applies more easily if there is only 1 concealer of the crime. So how (I’m asking sincerely because it seems irrational to me too) did this became irrational (a body in the home and a kidnapping note). Did PR innocently jump the gun and call the police after reading the note which she didn’t write? Or did she jump the gun after having written the note because she’d been up all night and was thinking crazy? Did JR simply run out of time to clean up JB, the crime scene, etc. get her body out of the home in the light of day before the police were called? Was he thinking it could always be construed as a kidnapping gone wrong, whereby she’s killed and left in the home?

Kolar makes an interesting point in his book, that people do what they are accustomed to doing when it is an emergency or traumatic situation. JR attempts to solve the trouble they find themselves in, PR calls the police because she wants the “endorsement” of the experts or because she’s totally innocent. Maybe a second unconscious motivation, does she want JR to be found accountable by the authorities?

Chrishope,
It’s easier to judge the intent from the “catbird” seat of rationality.

Yes, and the actor(s) may not have been rational. I don't get into what someone might have done if acting irrationally because the possibilities are endless. I don't know how to approach the case except by trying to think about what a "rational" person would do. Of course different people see "rationality" differently.

I would note that many other murderers have done what is "rationale" to try to get away with the crime. Also with regard to lesser, but still serious crimes, the actor(s) seem to do what is rational to try to evade justice. Example; bank robbers usually try to get away rather than hanging out in front of the bank waiting for the police, and they often wear masks to disguise their identity.

I watch movies, too, so I’m guessing here, but it seems like a standard procedure of police in the event of a kidnapping is to search the home, interview the parents, put a trap on phones. (IDK about watching the home or the cadaver dogs, but we’ll assume you’re right on that). And you’re correct that it wasn’t logical to have a kidnapping note and leave her corpse in the home---especially if the police followed standard procedure and did a thorough search of the home.

Not necessarily cadaver dogs, but dog that can pick up JB's scent. (Such a K9 unit was on standby, but never called in). Had it actually been a kidnapping the dogs might have been able to follow the scent as far as the car (assuming there was a car) but that might have at least told them wich way the kidnapper took her from the house, and may have told them approximately where the car was parked. Not much info, but some, and it could possibly be combined with witness knowledge (if any) about what make/model/color car was parked in the area. I assume that a "rational" stagger would anticipate dogs, so I conclude that once the 911 call is made the stagger(s) know the body will be found - or at least they must anticipate this.

I don't know if I'm right about watching the home or not. It seems a reasonable thing to anticipate.

Maybe logic and rationality to this applies more easily if there is only 1 concealer of the crime. So how (I’m asking sincerely because it seems irrational to me too) did this became irrational (a body in the home and a kidnapping note).

The theory that I believe in is generally called the DocG theory. For more detail you can (if you have not already) read it here -

http://solvingjonbenet.blogspot.com/2012/07/just-facts-maam.html

In short, the key insight that Doc had is that we are not looking at the crime scene as it was meant to be displayed to the police. Rather we are looking at a plan that had not been fully completed. A plan that had been interrupted. It accounts for the irrationality of having both a RN and a body present.

Did PR innocently jump the gun and call the police after reading the note which she didn’t write? Or did she jump the gun after having written the note because she’d been up all night and was thinking crazy?

Both are possibilities. IMO, if she were involved in the coverup, then she was rational enough to know that they were trying to stage a kidnapping. IMO it is not plausible that such a scenario did not include getting rid of the body. (But plenty of people think it's completely plausible that the Rs expected the body to be found) So I think she probably called 911 innocently, wrecking JR's plan.

Did JR simply run out of time to clean up JB, the crime scene, etc. get her body out of the home in the light of day before the police were called?

IMO JR could not have removed the body w/o first getting PR/BR out of the house. The RN provided a rationale for getting them to go stay with friends, while JR would of course have to be at home to take the kidnapper's call.

Was he thinking it could always be construed as a kidnapping gone wrong, whereby she’s killed and left in the home?

Plenty of people find this plausible. I find it ludicrous.

Kolar makes an interesting point in his book, that people do what they are accustomed to doing when it is an emergency or traumatic situation. JR attempts to solve the trouble they find themselves in, PR calls the police because she wants the “endorsement” of the experts or because she’s totally innocent. Maybe a second unconscious motivation, does she want JR to be found accountable by the authorities?

Could be. I don't wander far down the road of unconscious motive for the same reasons I don't dabble too much with irrationality. (There are some here who might think I'm more or less always dabbling in irrationality

So, w/o going through a whole theory of the case, I proceed by asking whether or not it was IDI. Having decided that it probably isn't IDI, I ask what was being staged. To me the answer is straight-forward and uncomplicated. He (they) tried to stage a kidnapping - that's why he (she/they) wrote a RN. It wasn't meant to be a kidnapping gone bad because the bogeyman intruder wouldn't bother redressing at all, nor bother putting the body in the WC. (Of course the "intruder" could be irrational) Why then is there a body along with a RN? Because the plan was interrupted before completion. I consider the RN/Body the key problem and the DocG theory, I believe, gives us an explanation for it. The only explanation, IMO, that makes sense.

 

[UKGuy]

It seems a little difficult to say definitively what the R’s intent was in “staging” JB that night. There were so many decisions, but I agree that PR probably didn’t want JB’s body “dumped” somewhere. It was a semi- believable scenario to say she was kidnapped and then after LE left, conveniently “find” her body,

But, they were under great pressure when LE wouldn’t leave, so that they could play out the rest of the scene. The “searches” of the basement alone would have given JR an ulcer.

If you believe that JR was an innocent lamb until he finds JB’s body, when did he find it?. According to poster Bluecrab and poster Amber, JR is caught in a lie when he tells Michael Kane that he was down in the basement between 7 and 8. He has told them that there was a chair and some boxes in front of the train room when he searched and found the open or broken window. However, he doesn’t know or recall at that time that both Detective French and FW had been in the basement, both had been in the train room and neither state that they had had to move a chair and some boxes to enter, or that they had placed the chair back in place after their search. FW had searched between 6 and 6:15 am. French had looked in the train room right after arriving at 6:59, he looking for a point of entry or escape.

IOW, it is likely that JR had been in the basement before the 911 call and before FW and French searched
.
He was down there again around 10 or so, after the time a kidnapper was supposed to call and JR was missing for about an hour.

And then of course, he was on the last search at about 1:00 pm. Reports are that he hurried directly to the basement with FW and he had gone into the train room, and they moved a grate in front of a closet to look inside. That was a closet that FW did not search originally because of the grate, and FW was searching for an alive JB who was simply hiding.

The denouement: JB is found by JR, who according to FW, sees JB even before he turns on the light to the WC and JR screams.

There is probably no answer as to where JB was hidden that night, but I think it’s quite likely she was moved twice or three times. Initially, moved from the bedroom, the kitchen, or the train room or within the boiler room to where she died outside the WC. Then was her next move (the WC?, the closet?) Then perhaps moved yet again to be more visible in the WC. IDK, but it seems like JR would be the probable first or second “Mover”. By his actions he did seem to know where she was, after all.

IF BDI, BR perhaps did the hiding from where she was assaulted and knocked unconscious in the basement, to a closet or the WC. If he not only assaulted her, bashed her head and then (30 to 90 minutes later, if we believe some of the autopsy experts) strangled her that BR then calmed down from his rage and gently cleans her up before hiding her? Nah, JB was cleaned up by one of the adult R’s. One has to at least consider that “some” of the experts were correct in their timeline, that she passed away from strangulation at least 30-90 minutes after the head bash, and then was cleaned up and redressed to hide a sexual assault and then placed somewhere hidden in the basement.

The statement from PR in one of her interviews was: “I can’t see how someone could have done this to another child.” She either knows it was BR or assumes it was BR. Put that statement together with her statement in the other nationally played interview when she says, at least 2 people know who killed JB, the person who did it and the person they confided in. JR gives her an incredulous look. Interesting

questfortrue,
Excellent analysis. There is nothing I can disagree with, you seem to have distilled the RDI perspective down to a T.

.

 

[Nom de plume]

It seems a little difficult to say definitively what the R’s intent was in “staging” JB that night. There were so many decisions, but I agree that PR probably didn’t want JB’s body “dumped” somewhere. It was a semi- believable scenario to say she was kidnapped and then after LE left, conveniently “find” her body,

But, they were under great pressure when LE wouldn’t leave, so that they could play out the rest of the scene. The “searches” of the basement alone would have given JR an ulcer.

If you believe that JR was an innocent lamb until he finds JB’s body, when did he find it?. According to poster Bluecrab and poster Amber, JR is caught in a lie when he tells Michael Kane that he was down in the basement between 7 and 8. He has told them that there was a chair and some boxes in front of the train room when he searched and found the open or broken window. However, he doesn’t know or recall at that time that both Detective French and FW had been in the basement, both had been in the train room and neither state that they had had to move a chair and some boxes to enter, or that they had placed the chair back in place after their search. FW had searched between 6 and 6:15 am. French had looked in the train room right after arriving at 6:59, he looking for a point of entry or escape.

IOW, it is likely that JR had been in the basement before the 911 call and before FW and French searched
.
He was down there again around 10 or so, after the time a kidnapper was supposed to call and JR was missing for about an hour.

And then of course, he was on the last search at about 1:00 pm. Reports are that he hurried directly to the basement with FW and he had gone into the train room, and they moved a grate in front of a closet to look inside. That was a closet that FW did not search originally because of the grate, and FW was searching for an alive JB who was simply hiding.

The denouement: JB is found by JR, who according to FW, sees JB even before he turns on the light to the WC and JR screams.

There is probably no answer as to where JB was hidden that night, but I think it’s quite likely she was moved twice or three times. Initially, moved from the bedroom, the kitchen, or the train room or within the boiler room to where she died outside the WC. Then was her next move (the WC?, the closet?) Then perhaps moved yet again to be more visible in the WC. IDK, but it seems like JR would be the probable first or second “Mover”. By his actions he did seem to know where she was, after all. IF BDI, BR perhaps did the hiding from where she was assaulted and knocked unconscious in the basement, to a closet or the WC. If he not only assaulted her, bashed her head and then (30 to 90 minutes later, if we believe some of the autopsy experts) strangled her that BR then calmed down from his rage and gently cleans her up before hiding her? Nah, JB was cleaned up by one of the adult R’s. One has to at least consider that “some” of the experts were correct in their timeline, that she passed away from strangulation at least 30-90 minutes after the head bash, and then was cleaned up and redressed to hide a sexual assault and then placed somewhere hidden in the basement.

The statement from PR in one of her interviews was: “I can’t see how someone could have done this to another child.” She either knows it was BR or assumes it was BR. Put that statement together with her statement in the other nationally played interview when she says, at least 2 people know who killed JB, the person who did it and the person they confided in. JR gives her an incredulous look. Interesting

BBM Could you please elaborate on this statement please? I'm not sure I'm understanding what you mean. TIA

 

[Nom de plume]

:moo:

It’s easy to try and rationalize the position of the assailant (let’s call him/her that so we can look at this without prejudice about who it is) to JonBenet at the moment the head blow happened in almost any possible arrangement (except with her lying down on her back). The reason is that the position of their bodies is not as important as the position of her head within the arc of the swing. Knowing exactly where the depressed fracture is on her skull tells you how her head would be positioned if she were facing the assailant (Her head would have to be looking down.). If OTOH the assailant was behind her, the location of the depressed fracture tells you that her head would have to be in an upright position. Other factors that would come into play would be the height of the assailant, since we know JonBenet’s height. If she was standing, sitting, kneeling, crouching, squatting, lying (prone only -- not supine), or on all fours (I don’t know of a better word for that position), it can’t be determined by where the “hole” is in her skull because there is still a possibility of a position of the assailant to swing at her head in an arc that would coincide with what is necessary to cause it. As for handedness, I agree that it may be a factor of likelihood. However it is not a given taking into consideration the possibility of the two being offset from one another. Again, it is the position of her head that has to be considered rather than the location and position of their bodies.



Too much speculation for me. I just don’t know and won’t venture a guess about the motivations of each individual and what rationale might have gone through their mind at the time. I'll leave that to you and others.



Have you read what I posted recently about what was in the area where I think it happened?



With the right object... absolutely. Of this I am certain.



We can’t assume she was able to run, and I don’t think she could.



People have dogs that have growled or snapped at people, but say they never thought it would bite someone until it happens. Maybe comparing to dogs is not a very good analogy, but in the same sense, parents are always shocked when something happens with their kids that they say they would have never expected. It’s only in hindsight that others will say that they should have seen little signs. As parents, we all want to think the best of our children and overlook “little problems”.



If you’ve made up your mind, I wasted my time. But then I didn’t really expect to change it. But I know you think about what you read, and you always seem to give reasonable consideration to opposing views. I just hope that maybe I said something that can get you to see that it is possible it wasn’t JR. Regardless though of who it was, take the evidence for what it is.

And as always, mwmm, I only post out of respect for your opinion. :seeya:

BBM With all due respect, and I do respect your opinion OTG, I have to totally disagree with you on this one detail. I just don't believe that a skinny 9 yr old had the strength it would have taken to do this kind of damage. IMO, the weapon had to be a heavy object, which is why I've always suspected the Maglite, and the weight combined with the strength it would have taken ruled BR out for me from square one.

 

[questfortrue]

BBM Could you please elaborate on this statement please? I'm not sure I'm understanding what you mean. TIA

LA, the detective waiting for backup, asked FW and JR to search the home "top to bottom". Guess someone could misunderstand that to mean thoroughly, but the interpretation is she wanted JR and FW to start searching upstairs (except for JB's bedroom which was considered a crime scene).

JR heads immediately to the basement, with FW trailing. First he goes to the train room and points out the broken window to FW. They move a grate and look in a closet, then JR moves to the WC. He looks inside and screams, before he turns on the light. FW had maintained that it was so dark, and he did not know where the light switch was, that he did not see JB in there when he looked at about 6:15.

One could excuse that dart to the WC and say it was just JR's intuition, but since he was down in the basement (per his own words) at least twice before finding her at 1:00 pm, it appears he knew where she was. He conveyed to Mike Kane he was down there between 7 and 8 am. He conveyed to his son and daughter JAR and MR that he found JB at 11 am. MHO JR knew where she was because he had placed her there, perhaps moving her a couple times prior to his "discovery."

 

[midwest mama]

otg;9550586 posted: (respectfully snipped)

Again, it is the position of her head that has to be considered rather than the location and position of their bodies.

Your scientific mind makes it tough on my artistic mind, which tends to "see" scenarios as I would see an act in a play. A blow to JB's head that was hard enough to cause the fracture as well, in my mind's eye, would require a strike from an adult.

Too much speculation for me. I just don’t know and won’t venture a guess about the motivations of each individual and what rationale might have gone through their mind at the time. I'll leave that to you and others.

OK, fair enough.

Have you read what I posted recently about what was in the area where I think it happened?

Yes, and there is no reason why you might not be right. And considering that fully, it really helps me to disbelieve the ST theory. Unless I find more printed information about the state of Patsy's mind just prior to Christmas 1995 showing she was more bonkers than she was sane, I can't link Patsy to JB's murder - even accidentally. Based on what I've read, IMO, I can link her to be an enabler to child sexual abuse, but not to her daughter's murder.

With the right object... absolutely. Of this I am certain.

If you can give some examples, and try to explain how the weight of the object combined with lesser amounts of force could cause the clean sort of elliptical "punch" and such a wide fracture, I will read through it as many times as I need to in order to try to absorb it correctly.

We can’t assume she was able to run, and I don’t think she could.

Maybe she couldn't, but is there really any way to know that she wasn't being chased for some reason? Part of that speculation thing.

People have dogs that have growled or snapped at people, but say they never thought it would bite someone until it happens. Maybe comparing to dogs is not a very good analogy, but in the same sense, parents are always shocked when something happens with their kids that they say they would have never expected. It’s only in hindsight that others will say that they should have seen little signs. As parents, we all want to think the best of our children and overlook “little problems”.

ITA on this!! There have been too many murders of siblings by siblings which prove you right. If this murder is ever proven to have happened at the hands of BR, I just pray that when we find it out, we won't also learn there are other unsolved murders that will end up being linked to him.

If you’ve made up your mind, I wasted my time. But then I didn’t really expect to change it. But I know you think about what you read, and you always seem to give reasonable consideration to opposing views. I just hope that maybe I said something that can get you to see that it is possible it wasn’t JR. Regardless though of who it was, take the evidence for what it is.

And as always, mwmm, I only post out of respect for your opinion. :seeya:

Several of us have decided it is one of the R's over the other who killed JB. Until or unless there is a public announcement of a named murderer of JonBenet, I will re-sift through every piece of evidence that has been or will be presented. I appreciate the expertise and time you apply to your posts, and trust you are presenting information that you feel is valid. I respect this.

Of course it is POSSIBLE is was not JR who killed JB, and I would be willing to change my opinion in a heartbeat if any information crosses my path that makes a light bulb come on in my head which would expose any other perpetrator.

Your posts are welcome (by many more than me - for sure!) and appreciated!

 

[midwest mama]

QUOTE=Chrishope;9545729

It seems more likely he'd try to bring her around on the spot?

Unless he was concerned about waking Patsy, and thought taking her downstairs would "quiet things down"?

(snipped)

An innocent PR waking up to find BR had bludgeoned their daughter isn't going to go along with a garrotting, and agree to write a RN. She's going to call an ambulance.

If Patsy was a manipulated enabler of familial molestation of JB, this would have been a slam-dunk time for JR to convince her of the whole RN plan and be able to engage her in helping him. No way would she have exposed their family. "We didn't mean for this to happen" "Why did they kill my baby" "Can't you fix this for me". Even her pathetic plea on CNN on Jan 1 - "Hold your babies close - there is someone out there" might have been a veiled personal revelation she was making about not turning your babies into the hands of someone who would turn them into molested children.

Of course, the easiest explanation for me, with my JDI speculation, is that Patsy was innocent all along, and she placed the 911 call out of sheer terror combined with anxiety about JB being missing. All we need to do is consider that the kidnapping plan would have been able to be fully deployed if the call was not made - possibly even to the point of having JB's remains recovered for a "proper burial".

 

[Chrishope]

P.S. here's another article about Skip Palenik from Microtrace - his nickname is "The Dust Detective"
http://www.uiaa.org/uic/news/uicalumni/1003a.html

Thank you, that was interesting.

 

[renah]

I think-- whether its jdi, pdi, or bdi -- everyone can agree that john was in a hurry to "discover" b's body that day? But what I'D like to know is WHY... What was the hurry?

I usually lurk but Ive read most of what's been posted, & dont recall hearing this question. If its old news, I apologize!!

You guys are great This is my favorite forum, & it's all because of you
Thanks in advance.

 

[otg]

I think-- whether its jdi, pdi, or bdi -- everyone can agree that john was in a hurry to "discover" b's body that day? But what I'D like to know is WHY... What was the hurry?

I usually lurk but Ive read most of what's been posted, & dont recall hearing this question. If its old news, I apologize!!

You guys are great This is my favorite forum, & it's all because of you
Thanks in advance.

Hi, renah. What you're asking for is opinion -- there is no definitive answer. No one here knows what was going through his mind. My guess though is that it was most likely a combination of things that caused him to make a beeline for the WC. He was probably getting tired of having to play host to the BPD, and he was ready to get the heck outta Dodge so they could "get on with their lives." Add to this one more little thing that I would throw into the mix:

Have you ever had guests over and you were aware of a smell in your house that you weren't sure whether your guests might notice? Maybe it was the fish you cooked the night before, or the dirty laundry behind the door going to the laundry. Your guests probably didn't notice it, but just the fact that you are aware of it makes you think they must smell it too. Well, JR had been in the basement and probably noticed the smell of decay and stale urine. How much of that smell had begun wafting up the stairs and into the kitchen after the hours dragged on is only known probably to JR. But just being aware of it (IMO) made him all the more anxious to "discover" the body. Arndt later commented on the smell after the body was brought up. She said it was obvious from the foul odor, the color of her lips, and the stiffness of her body that JonBenet was dead, and yet JR looked at her and asked, "Is she dead?"

 

[UKGuy]

I think-- whether its jdi, pdi, or bdi -- everyone can agree that john was in a hurry to "discover" b's body that day? But what I'D like to know is WHY... What was the hurry?

I usually lurk but Ive read most of what's been posted, & dont recall hearing this question. If its old news, I apologize!!

You guys are great This is my favorite forum, & it's all because of you
Thanks in advance.

renah,
Some think the Ramsey's, or one of them had a nice plan ready to execute. I dont, I reckon what you are looking at in the wine-cellar crime-scene is the result of a night of madness.

I think JonBenet was probably staged upstairs by the person who sexually assaulted her. This was then later changed, possibly to the wine-cellar crime-scene?

You have to consider why this might have been done and who benefits, since the R's likely thought whatever happens once we dial 911 they will discover JonBenet?

So it looks like a last minute wine-cellar crime-scene was fabricated, its apparent purpose to absolve the R's of any participation, and blame a foreign faction for her death.

That JR found JonBenet suggests the R's never had any backup plan in the event of non-discovery. In the majority of crime-scene stagings it is the stager who usually finds the body. Most stagers are unaware of this statistic, but not agencies like the FBI etc.

So the simple answer is JR wished the process to be brought to some conclusion, so when told to search again he decided to find JonBenet.


.

 

[Chrishope]

I think-- whether its jdi, pdi, or bdi -- everyone can agree that john was in a hurry to "discover" b's body that day? But what I'D like to know is WHY... What was the hurry?

I usually lurk but Ive read most of what's been posted, & dont recall hearing this question. If its old news, I apologize!!

You guys are great This is my favorite forum, & it's all because of you
Thanks in advance.

I'm not sure exactly what you are getting at. 7 hours passes between the 911 call and the "discovery" of the body.

As otg says, it's only speculation as to what was in JR's mind. My take is that he was expecting friends/police to find her and had some rehearsed response he was going to go through. He must have wondered why everyone who searched was incompetent.

Even when he and FW go into the basement at LA's suggestion, they go to a couple other locations in the basement before JR goes to the WC. They go to the playroom, talk about the window, look in a shower stall, move a fireplace grate that is blocking a closet door and search the closet, then they go to the WC. It only takes about 5 minutes to do all this, but it isn't true that he goes straight for the WC.

Don't lurk so much. Fresh points of view would be welcome. Your ideas are as good as anyone's.

 

[Chrishope]

renah,
Some think the Ramsey's, or one of them had a nice plan ready to execute. I dont, I reckon what you are looking at in the wine-cellar crime-scene is the result of a night of madness.

I think JonBenet was probably staged upstairs by the person who sexually assaulted her. This was then later changed, possibly to the wine-cellar crime-scene?

You have to consider why this might have been done and who benefits, since the R's likely thought whatever happens once we dial 911 they will discover JonBenet?

So it looks like a last minute wine-cellar crime-scene was fabricated, its apparent purpose to absolve the R's of any participation, and blame a foreign faction for her death.

That JR found JonBenet suggests the R's never had any backup plan in the event of non-discovery. In the majority of crime-scene stagings it is the stager who usually finds the body. Most stagers are unaware of this statistic, but not agencies like the FBI etc.

So the simple answer is JR wished the process to be brought to some conclusion, so when told to search again he decided to find JonBenet.


.

Well there is something we come close to agreeing on. He (they) would have to have anticipated that once the police are called the body would be found. IMO that eliminates all the scenarios in which it was planned to find the body later "returned dead" by the kidnappers.

 

[midwest mama]

Hi, renah. What you're asking for is opinion -- there is no definitive answer. No one here knows what was going through his mind. My guess though is that it was most likely a combination of things that caused him to make a beeline for the WC. He was probably getting tired of having to play host to the BPD, and he was ready to get the heck outta Dodge so they could "get on with their lives." Add to this one more little thing that I would throw into the mix:

Have you ever had guests over and you were aware of a smell in your house that you weren't sure whether your guests might notice? Maybe it was the fish you cooked the night before, or the dirty laundry behind the door going to the laundry. Your guests probably didn't notice it, but just the fact that you are aware of it makes you think they must smell it too. Well, JR had been in the basement and probably noticed the smell of decay and stale urine. How much of that smell had begun wafting up the stairs and into the kitchen after the hours dragged on is only known probably to JR. But just being aware of it (IMO) made him all the more anxious to "discover" the body. Arndt later commented on the smell after the body was brought up. She said it was obvious from the foul odor, the color of her lips, and the stiffness of her body that JonBenet was dead, and yet JR looked at her and asked, "Is she dead?"

Yep, otg - and haven't we noticed how many of the windows in the basement in the crime scene photos were opened? Going down to the basement during the 10 am timeslot gave him a chance to check out the smell - which he might have already been keen on - and to open those basement windows.

Might have been one more reason he was so jittery until Arndt sent him off for the discovery.