Happenings of December 26

[Nom de plume]

Nom de plume,
I agree JR might be lying through his teeth. Patsy must be on board otherwise she can contradict him. Yet Doc's theory assumes its Patsy who is being setup?

From memory in some other interview Patsy states JR told her to dial 911, so they both seem to agree with each other. JR is not pulling any punches with what he said, no as much as I remember, he seems quite categorical.

Who said I believe everything the R's have said. I'm quoting what JR said. I've never seen ST, LS, or Kolar jumping on this and saying he lying because ...

Its an important aspect of Doc's theory that the 911 call was unintentional it was not part of JR's script, yet we have both JR and PR agreeing they debated then decided to dial 911.

Doc's theory is patently not waterproof, it has some holes in it.


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JR & PR both lied through their teeth more times than I can count. Remember the BS story about BR being asleep during the 911 call? They've also contradicted each other numerous times, only to later change one's story or the other.

BBM - Yes she did say that. She also said it was her idea. Then she said it was his again. The story kept changing!

You were the one that said you believed JR when he said he told PR to call 911 and it was proof that DocG's theory was wrong! I'm not saying his theory is right, but it certainly could be. The R's ever changing stories sure don't rule it out.

The 911 call was most certainly "intentional". It wasn't an "accident" like the one on the 23rd. It just wasn't part of JR's plan.

 

[Nom de plume]

InstantProof,
She did say JR told her to dial 911, so they are both in agreement over something Doc suggests Patsy enacted completely independently of JR.

JR says it twice too, he is actually flagging up an issue you might think he would want buried?

.

Why would he want it buried? He wants everyone to think that it was his idea to call 911. He couldn't very well say that he didn't want her to call now could he?

 

[questfortrue]

What I found interesting is that he is talking about looking at the mental history of the FAMILY,he isn't talking only about BR.And then he says something about some medical records when he mentions JR's 98 interview.I didn't get that part though....JR's medical records?BR's?didn't get it

Besides the obvious of the perceived behavior problems of BR, maybe they are trying to find out what medication JR or BR were on, to analyze what meds were in the household at the time of JB's homicide. Some meds prescribed for adults, are lethal in the wrong dosage on kids.

 

[madeleine]

Besides the obvious of the perceived behavior problems of BR, maybe they are trying to find out what medication JR or BR were on, to analyze what meds were in the household at the time of JB's homicide. Some meds prescribed for adults, are lethal in the wrong dosage on kids.

this never crossed my mind until today when I read about W.Murphy and what she says re drug overdose....there are some insane moms/babysitters who give cough syrup and such stuff to their kids/babies so they sleep longer...I was wondering...they had a trip planned for the next day so sure they wanted the kids to go to bed quickly and sleep well....MAYBE Patsy gave JB something?just a thought,PDI is not my fav theory...

 

[madeleine]

you wouldn't wanna call for help if your kid fells in a coma or something because you gave her something....or if the kid fells down the stairs and hits her head because she's dizzy after you gave her one sleeping pill...

 

[madeleine]

I still feel there's something about our good dr.Beuf ,I just can't put my finger on it....and I still would LOVE to know if he ever gave a DNA sample....>> if he was called that night/early morning ,maybe arrived too late but tried to revive JB...>>>ended up helping with the staging....(missing phone records,why)

 

[UKGuy]

JR & PR both lied through their teeth more times than I can count. Remember the BS story about BR being asleep during the 911 call? They've also contradicted each other numerous times, only to later change one's story or the other.

BBM - Yes she did say that. She also said it was her idea. Then she said it was his again. The story kept changing!

You were the one that said you believed JR when he said he told PR to call 911 and it was proof that DocG's theory was wrong! I'm not saying his theory is right, but it certainly could be. The R's ever changing stories sure don't rule it out.

The 911 call was most certainly "intentional". It wasn't an "accident" like the one on the 23rd. It just wasn't part of JR's plan.

Nom de plume,
Those are your words and interpretation of what I posted. DocG's theory is inconsistent in many parts, but you can tidy it up for public presentation if you select the bits you like and discard the troublesome pieces.

Simply pointing out inconsistencies then electing to select one interpretation over another does not make it wrong but it certainly does not make it more correct.

The holes in DocG's theory are more serious than those in other PDI or BDI theories, simply because both JR and PR combine to create them.

Also DocG's theory has a large number of qualified assumptions, i.e. you wont find them in ST's book or PMPT, they follow from the conclusion, i.e. JonBenet should have been deposited outdoors, this failure and her discovery in the wine-cellar must mean the deposition phase was interrupted, e.g. 911 Call. etc, etc ... its a Columbo style presentation of who did it.

My basic RDI is more consistent and employs fewer qualified assumptions than that of DocG's theory. I am not claiming it is more correct or right etc, its faithful to the forensic evidence and is not as convoluted.

I think a possible RDI that might include the other theories is: JR staging for BR and attempting to hide as much as possible from PR.

Its quite possible that its both JDI and BDI, except on this occassion its BDI and JR recognises he has to stage to mask the forensic evidence.


.

 

[UKGuy]

Why would he want it buried? He wants everyone to think that it was his idea to call 911. He couldn't very well say that he didn't want her to call now could he?

Nom de plume,
I do not understand your reasoning. If I was JR and DocG's theory was correct, I would want to downplay my involvement, and simply allow actions like the 911 call to be placed in the Right Thing To Do category. Otherwise JR's behaviour comes under scrutiny, not something I would appreciate if I were JR.

The major qualified assumption in DocG's theory is that master strategist JR calmy placed the Ransom Notes on the stairs then retired to bed.

Assuming PR would not dial 911? Obviously JR was not versed in counterfactual conditionals.




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[Nom de plume]

I agree, it's hard to believe the kidnapper/killer was still in the house. But then again it's even harder to believe that the kidnapper turned into a pedo perv killer and left her! For that matter, it's hard to even read the RN without :floorlaugh: !!

couldn't agree more.


It's difficult to think of any reason they'd have thought it was a good idea.



Few people would. It takes years on the forums before something like that starts to sound plausible.



As I see it, she either was innocent and ignorant, or their plan was to have the body found along with the RN. But I don't buy that either, so I go with innocent/ignorant.

I don't think she knew that morning. I have no doubt she figured it out later.

I think for the most part we agree on our theories. I'm still open to PR being involved to some degree, but definitely not sure. I really lean towards DocG's theory.

Having said that, how do you account for PR's strange behavior that morning, and IMO it was strange, and her changing stories so many times afterwards? There has to be an explanation.

 

[Nom de plume]

Nom de plume,
Those are your words and interpretation of what I posted. DocG's theory is inconsistent in many parts, but you can tidy it up for public presentation if you select the bits you like and discard the troublesome pieces.

Simply pointing out inconsistencies then electing to select one interpretation over another does not make it wrong but it certainly does not make it more correct.

The holes in DocG's theory are more serious than those in other PDI or BDI theories, simply because both JR and PR combine to create them.

Also DocG's theory has a large number of qualified assumptions, i.e. you wont find them in ST's book or PMPT, they follow from the conclusion, i.e. JonBenet should have been deposited outdoors, this failure and her discovery in the wine-cellar must mean the deposition phase was interrupted, e.g. 911 Call. etc, etc ... its a Columbo style presentation of who did it.

My basic RDI is more consistent and employs fewer qualified assumptions than that of DocG's theory. I am not claiming it is more correct or right etc, its faithful to the forensic evidence and is not as convoluted.
I think a possible RDI that might include the other theories is: JR staging for BR and attempting to hide as much as possible from PR.

Its quite possible that its both JDI and BDI, except on this occassion its BDI and JR recognises he has to stage to mask the forensic evidence.


.

I don't see the holes in his theory that you seem to see. I think it makes more sense than any others I've heard. Actually, when I first heard it, I was totally convinced that PR wrote the note, and possibly dealt the head blow. After considering his theory, I couldn't deny that it did in fact make perfect sense.

BBM That's a matter of opinion! (and you know what they say about opinions) It's your theory, so obviously it makes sense to you, but then again LS's theory made sense to him too.

 

[Nom de plume]

Nom de plume,
I do not understand your reasoning. If I was JR and DocG's theory was correct, I would want to downplay my involvement, and simply allow actions like the 911 call to be placed in the Right Thing To Do category. Otherwise JR's behaviour comes under scrutiny, not something I would appreciate if I were JR.

The major qualified assumption in DocG's theory is that master strategist JR calmy placed the Ransom Notes on the stairs then retired to bed.

Assuming PR would not dial 911? Obviously JR was not versed in counterfactual conditionals.




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You're not alone UK, because I don't understand yours either. I'll try to explain this for you. If DocG's theory is correct, JR placed all the threats about killing JB in the note to scare PR out of calling LE, thinking she wouldn't want to risk her daughter's life by disobeying the RN instructions. Obviously, it didn't work out that way. If she didn't read the entire RN before calling 911, or thought she had no choice but to call if she did read it through, that foiled JR's plan to dispose of JB before the 911 call was made.

JR had to make everyone believe that he was in favor of calling 911. That is not suspicious! Any other options, i.e. "I didn't want her to call but she insisted" is suspicious.

If you have noticed, JR tended to bring attention to certain things like the broken window, the suitcase, the chair, etc. IMO he brings these things up to try to lead LE in the direction he wants them to go. I think the same is the case here. He wants LE to believe that he & PR were on the same page. Otherwise it would raise red flags. Also, IMO, he's distancing himself from the real truth that he didn't want her to call.

 

[UKGuy]

You're not alone UK, because I don't understand yours either. I'll try to explain this for you. If DocG's theory is correct, JR placed all the threats about killing JB in the note to scare PR out of calling LE, thinking she wouldn't want to risk her daughter's life by disobeying the RN instructions. Obviously, it didn't work out that way. If she didn't read the entire RN before calling 911, or thought she had no choice but to call if she did read it through, that foiled JR's plan to dispose of JB before the 911 call was made.

JR had to make everyone believe that he was in favor of calling 911. That is not suspicious! Any other options, i.e. "I didn't want her to call but she insisted" is suspicious.

If you have noticed, JR tended to bring attention to certain things like the broken window, the suitcase, the chair, etc. IMO he brings these things up to try to lead LE in the direction he wants them to go. I think the same is the case here. He wants LE to believe that he & PR were on the same page. Otherwise it would raise red flags. Also, IMO, he's distancing himself from the real truth that he didn't want her to call.

Nom de plume.
You cannot be serious. Why should writing anything in a Ransom Note determine someone else's behaviour?

This is the kind of qualified assumption I am suggesting is illustrative of DocG's theory.

JR might have been leading the LE on false forensic trails but that does not mean DocG's theory is correct.

I can explain all this away. PR vetoed JR dumping JonBenet outdoors, so they embarked on the wine-cellar staging and all JR's subsequent comments are an attempt to deflect any suspicion.

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[Nom de plume]

Nom de plume.
You cannot be serious. Why should writing anything in a Ransom Note determine someone else's behaviour?

This is the kind of qualified assumption I am suggesting is illustrative of DocG's theory.

JR might have been leading the LE on false forensic trails but that does not mean DocG's theory is correct.

I can explain all this away. PR vetoed JR dumping JonBenet outdoors, so they embarked on the wine-cellar staging and all JR's subsequent comments are an attempt to deflect any suspicion.

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Totally serious. Sorry if you can't understand. Typically, husbands and wives know each other pretty well. They know how to "push the other's buttons". They know how the other would usually react in a certain situation. I know exactly how my spouse would react in that situation, and what to say to elicit the response I would be looking for.

You can explain it all away in your own mind, but not in mine. Explain away how they thought they'd get away with a RN and a dead body in the house. In 16 years I've never heard anyone be able to give a good reason for that.

 

[DeeDee249]

this never crossed my mind until today when I read about W.Murphy and what she says re drug overdose....there are some insane moms/babysitters who give cough syrup and such stuff to their kids/babies so they sleep longer...I was wondering...they had a trip planned for the next day so sure they wanted the kids to go to bed quickly and sleep well....MAYBE Patsy gave JB something?just a thought,PDI is not my fav theory...

There were toxicology tests done at the autopsy- blood, tissue, stomach contents, etc. Standard procedure. All tests were negative- no evidence of drugs or alcohol of any kind. Unless the coroner flat out lied. I think Mayer was careless and was told not to do certain things (the tests to determine time of death) but I do not think he would have lied outright about the test results. He would have simply not done the tests.

 

[madeleine]

There were toxicology tests done at the autopsy- blood, tissue, stomach contents, etc. Standard procedure. All tests were negative- no evidence of drugs or alcohol of any kind. Unless the coroner flat out lied. I think Mayer was careless and was told not to do certain things (the tests to determine time of death) but I do not think he would have lied outright about the test results. He would have simply not done the tests.

reminds me of the circus re the body being released to the family...they wanted to stop further testing...( re TOD and COD)...any normal innocent parent would have said,take your time cause this is vital in finding out who did this...

 

[madeleine]

can someone pls remind me where exactly did they find urine stains down in the basement?TIA

 

[Chrishope]

I agree, it's hard to believe the kidnapper/killer was still in the house. But then again it's even harder to believe that the kidnapper turned into a pedo perv killer and left her! For that matter, it's hard to even read the RN without :floorlaugh: !!

I think for the most part we agree on our theories. I'm still open to PR being involved to some degree, but definitely not sure. I really lean towards DocG's theory.

Having said that, how do you account for PR's strange behavior that morning, and IMO it was strange, and her changing stories so many times afterwards? There has to be an explanation.

I can't account for everything, and neither can any theory of the case.

Some people, for example, feel PR is involved because she looks at police through splayed fingers. I find that strange, and suspicious, but not nearly as strange as expecting to be successful with a kidnap scenario in which the body is found in the basement.

PR had little choice but to play along with Team Ramsey in the months after the murder. Between the 26th and the first police interviews in April '97, JR manages to get himself "ruled out" as writer of the RN. That made PR the focus of RDI theorists. IF PR put a lot of stock int the handwriting experts, then she'd have thought JR was innocent. She may actually have believed LS's intruder nonsense. Alternatively, she may have figured out what really happened (e.g. Doc's theory) but knew if she didn't cooperate with JR she'd be thrown under the bus.

 

[Chrishope]

Totally serious. Sorry if you can't understand. Typically, husbands and wives know each other pretty well. They know how to "push the other's buttons". They know how the other would usually react in a certain situation. I know exactly how my spouse would react in that situation, and what to say to elicit the response I would be looking for.

Or at least they think they know. The structure of the RN tells us something. The first paragraph is just the info that JB has been taken, along with a warning that she won't be seen again if instructions are not followed to the letter. It would be reasonable to think that the reader (just about any reader) would continue beyond that point, and especially since the instructions follow, in the second paragraph. The final paragraph is a laundry list of dire consequences. JR may have assumed PR would read the entire note. She didn't, if Doc's theory is correct.

You can explain it all away in your own mind, but not in mine. Explain away how they thought they'd get away with a RN and a dead body in the house. In 16 years I've never heard anyone be able to give a good reason for that.

 

[midwest mama]

can someone pls remind me where exactly did they find urine stains down in the basement?TIA

In the carpet next to where the paint tote was found.

There was also carpet sample taken into evidence from JB's bedroom area between the 2 beds, and from JAR's room. IIRC, urine was later confirmed to be found in the sample from JB's bedroom.

 

[midwest mama]

Nom de plume.
You cannot be serious. Why should writing anything in a Ransom Note determine someone else's behaviour?

This is the kind of qualified assumption I am suggesting is illustrative of DocG's theory.

JR might have been leading the LE on false forensic trails but that does not mean DocG's theory is correct.

I can explain all this away. PR vetoed JR dumping JonBenet outdoors, so they embarked on the wine-cellar staging and all JR's subsequent comments are an attempt to deflect any suspicion.

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UK - Try this: you have left your residence to go after some groceries. When you return, there is note pinned to your door.

It says: We watched your home and waited for you to leave so we could come in a snatch that barking, pooping dog of yours that you let run the neighborhood and bark incessantly when he returns home until you let him back indoors.

Here's the deal, we will agree to meet with you in 10 hours, at the local vet, where you will turn your dog over for debarking and a neuter job,(**see below) so none of us have to listen to him, or take care of puppy litters from him jumping our fences to get to our females who are confined, let alone clean up after he leaves a big pile in one of our front yards.

If you aren't there at that time, checkbook in hand, we'll kill him. Don't call the police, because none of us want the hassle of dealing with police. If they show up at one of our doors, we'll kill your loyal companion. Might as well, if we're going to get arrested for dognapping anyway. Not much more of a fine to pay, or jail time. Ha Ha, we win! Y.F.N.D.
which might mean, (Your friendly neighborhood dognappers.)

(**) I would have called the police at least by now! Then while I was looking at the note, could have answered the 911 responder who signed it off, if I was asked to, simply by scanning through it.

Sorry to be so purposefully flippant, but there are reasons why someone might be frantic enough to call for police at any point, hoping to stop something before it gets started.

And seriously, I would like to know the percentage of parents who actually carried out the demands of a ransom note to get their child back safely, without calling in police, unless they might have felt their own lives or those of their other children could be harmed.