Harley in the Hangar: Chop Shop?

[Alethea Dice]

So is it to be suggested while DM slept in each day, arriving at the hangar, some time after noon, some little kleptomaniac elves busied themselves striping, grinding and repainting MM's stolen HD and DM was none the wiser? Were the elves able to hide the HD and trailer amongst all the other toys in the hangar before DM showed up to work in the afternoon? Or maybe DM didn't know it was stolen because he had so many rich buddies who could afford at $35,000 HD to rip apart just for shitz and gigs, and in the process the buddy thought it would be fun to grind away serial numbers. Maybe he gave that particular job to DM? Interesting how that rich buddy hasn't been charged yet either for the HD and trailer theft.

<rsbm>

There is the possibility that someone has been charged with the theft of the Harley and trailer. We don't know whose name the trailer was registered to. If it wasn't DM, then whoever it was may have already been charged by Toronto LE and we just don't know about it. We've all heard about DM's generosity to his friends. There is the possibility that his only involvement in the Harley was, either knowingly or not knowingly, allowing a friend to work on it in the hangar. Has there been any evidence of DM having any interest or knowledge of motorcycles?

JMO

 

[swedie]

Someone was charged - DM - with theft over $5,000. The possession charge would come into it if there was no evidence that the same person committed the theft, but the person in possession knew that the item was stolen.



I'm sure the penalty for breaching a court order is also a lesser sentence, but that didn't stop them from charging MS. Unless DM has possession of the gun and has been charged with possession of an illegal weapon, it isn't him who put that pressure on the legal system. You can blame the 3 M's for that one.



But if there was a chop shop, whoever was helping to chop the vehicles would have been participating in it.



No doubt. Has there been any information released to indicate that the engine in the red Ram was no longer of use?


If there were, or were going to be charges laid, for the Harley and trailer, they would have been laid by Toronto LE.



http://www.therecord.com/news-story/3250211-stolen-vehicles-found-inside-millard-s-airport-hangar/

I can't imagine why the TB case would stop them from laying charges for the Harley. Many times, other charges are not allowed in a current trial as it can prejudice the jury. If no charges are even laid, I wouldn't be surprised if that also would not be allowed at trial. The only reason I can think of that they may want to is to support the Crown's theory of a motive. Motive does not need to be proven. All they have to do, in the TB case, is prove that DM stole the truck, forcibly confined TB, and murdered him.

JMO

BBM - Only if they had knowledge the vehicle(s) was/were stolen. Had DM told them he purchased them and proceeded to grind off serial numbers when he was alone at the hangar?

Regarding all the questions to do with additional charges such as chop shop or gun purchase etc. This procedure would normally take place during the preliminary hearing. Being as the PH was bypassed by the AG, the decisions to add or drop charges will take place during the pretrial phase and would be done by the judge. So as I have suggested a few times, giving MR's case as an example, we just may hear of additional charges added through the pretrial phase. Then again, we the public, may not hear anything until the trial starts. And not only could DM be faced with charges for the chop shop. There could be numerous charges against ALL accused involved in the three murders. HTH and MOO.

Judge's Decision
The judge will decide if the accused should be tried on each of the charges. After hearing the prosecution's evidence, the judge must study each charge and ask the following question: "If there was a trial on this charge, could a reasonable jury find the accused guilty?" The judge can then drop charges for which there is not enough evidence. If no charges need to be dropped, the judge will commit the accused to trial, which means he will order that a trial be held on the charges.

The judge can also add charges if new crimes related to the case are discovered during the course of the preliminary inquiry. Take, for example, the case of an individual accused of committing armed robbery in a bank. During the preliminary inquiry, a witness says she saw the accused steal a car to get away from the scene. But the original information does not contain a charge of theft of a vehicle. Despite this, the judge can add the theft charge to the armed robbery charge already listed. The accused will then be tried for the two charges even if the prosecutor did not accuse him of theft originally.

https://www.educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/criminal-and-penal-cases-superior-court-procedure

 

[swedie]

<rsbm>

There is the possibility that someone has been charged with the theft of the Harley and trailer. We don't know whose name the trailer was registered to. If it wasn't DM, then whoever it was may have already been charged by Toronto LE and we just don't know about it. We've all heard about DM's generosity to his friends. There is the possibility that his only involvement in the Harley was, either knowingly or not knowingly, allowing a friend to work on it in the hangar. Has there been any evidence of DM having any interest or knowledge of motorcycles?

JMO

Oh trust me, word gets around pretty well. You know the old saying, "It's a small world" Had anyone been charged with the HD and trailer theft, we would have heard, it would have made it into the MSM and it would have been linked with DM's name and the MA hangar in google searches no doubt.

Let's just say then if DM was such a "nice guy", law abiding citizen he wouldn't knowingly allow such actions or risky business to be done in his place of business no matter how private the hangar was. I've considered the generosity with friends thing many times. IMO there was likely a hitch behind the generosity aspect.

Chop shops owners don't even necessarily have to have an interest in vehicles. All they need is knowledge. How to obtain vehicles illegally, how to strip them down and get the parts out the door. MOO.

 

[Alethea Dice]

BBM - Only if they had knowledge the vehicle(s) was/were stolen. Had DM told them he purchased them and proceeded to grind off serial numbers when he was alone at the hangar?

Regarding all the questions to do with additional charges such as chop shop or gun purchase etc. This procedure would normally take place during the preliminary hearing. Being as the PH was bypassed by the AG, the decisions to add or drop charges will take place during the pretrial phase and would be done by the judge. So as I have suggested a few times, giving MR's case as an example, we just may hear of additional charges added through the pretrial phase. Then again, we the public, may not hear anything until the trial starts. And not only could DM be faced with charges for the chop shop. There could be numerous charges against ALL accused involved in the three murders. HTH and MOO.

Judge's Decision
The judge will decide if the accused should be tried on each of the charges. After hearing the prosecution's evidence, the judge must study each charge and ask the following question: "If there was a trial on this charge, could a reasonable jury find the accused guilty?" The judge can then drop charges for which there is not enough evidence. If no charges need to be dropped, the judge will commit the accused to trial, which means he will order that a trial be held on the charges.

The judge can also add charges if new crimes related to the case are discovered during the course of the preliminary inquiry. Take, for example, the case of an individual accused of committing armed robbery in a bank. During the preliminary inquiry, a witness says she saw the accused steal a car to get away from the scene. But the original information does not contain a charge of theft of a vehicle. Despite this, the judge can add the theft charge to the armed robbery charge already listed. The accused will then be tried for the two charges even if the prosecutor did not accuse him of theft originally.

https://www.educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/criminal-and-penal-cases-superior-court-procedure

As you said, the preliminary hearing was bypassed for this case. We are now beyond that and into the pre-trial conferences, which is when the Judge decides what will and will not be allowed at trial.

Pre-Trial Conferences

Before the beginning of a trial, there is usually a pre-trial conference between the defence, crown and judge to go over the elements of the case. At this conference, the crown may go over the witnesses and evidence it wishes to call before the judge or jury. The defence can indicate whether or not the evidence and key elements of the case have been disclosed by the crown in a sufficient manner and if not, the judge may order the crown to turn over information or delay proceedings to give more time to the defence to prepare its case. The conference will also go over the elements of facts that are not in dispute by either side. If certain facts about the case are agreed upon, then there will be no need to call witnesses or evidence to prove those elements. A simple reading of a "statement of facts" is read into the record to register the information in the court record. This step can save a great deal of time in a trial since calling witnesses for examination and cross examination can take some time and is ultimately unnecessary if the facts are already agreed upon by the defence and crown.

http://chatt.hdsb.ca/~mossutom/law/Handouts/Unit%203-Handout-Pre%20Trial%20Procedures-Release.htm

HTH

 

[Alethea Dice]

Oh trust me, word gets around pretty well. You know the old saying, "It's a small world" Had anyone been charged with the HD and trailer theft, we would have heard, it would have made it into the MSM and it would have been linked with DM's name and the MA hangar in google searches no doubt.

<rsbm>

Has someone been following the Toronto court dockets for the past two years then, to see if anyone of another name has been charged with stealing a Harley? If not, how would we have heard of it? LE isn't about to announce it, so unless a reporter is following those dockets too, to see if anything matches up, I don't know how that word would get around.

JMO

 

[swedie]

As you said, the preliminary hearing was bypassed for this case. We are now beyond that and into the pre-trial conferences, which is when the Judge decides what will and will not be allowed at trial.



http://chatt.hdsb.ca/~mossutom/law/Handouts/Unit%203-Handout-Pre%20Trial%20Procedures-Release.htm

HTH

Respectfully I think that is pretty obvious and a given being there is no PH for TB's case. MOO

From my post above: This procedure would normally take place during the preliminary hearing. Being as the PH was bypassed by the AG, the decisions to add or drop charges will take place during the pretrial phase and would be done by the judge.

 

[swedie]

<rsbm>

Has someone been following the Toronto court dockets for the past two years then, to see if anyone of another name has been charged with stealing a Harley? If not, how would we have heard of it? LE isn't about to announce it, so unless a reporter is following those dockets too, to see if anything matches up, I don't know how that word would get around.

JMO

All the reporters in TO and you don't suspect at least four keep an eye on the court dockets daily? Oh bother and for heaven sakes. I'm sure MM wouldn't have had second thoughts about contacting a reporter to make it public knowledge, had he attended court regarding the theft of his HD and trailer. Perhaps he would have even included the thief's name to the reporter, along with all the documentation. MOO.

 

[Tamarind]

<rsbm>

Has someone been following the Toronto court dockets for the past two years then, to see if anyone of another name has been charged with stealing a Harley? If not, how would we have heard of it? LE isn't about to announce it, so unless a reporter is following those dockets too, to see if anything matches up, I don't know how that word would get around.

JMO

I think that if someone has been charged for the Harley we would not necessarily know about it and as you say, unless the name of the accused was known to reporters etc, it is not likely that anyone would recognize the name on any docket. This could well have been dealt with already. I also have a hunch that MM may not want to be in the limelight any further. JMO MOO

 

[SnooperDuper]

Well the stolen Harley and trailer isn't a make-or-break part of the case...it's more of a sideshow.

Like teens, MS and DM stole a truck for kicks...and despite being ten years behind in their mental development vs. their actual age, they added an adult twist: a thrill kill. IMO.

None of the trials are going to be able to present the full 10-month crime spree.

 

[Alethea Dice]

All the reporters in TO and you don't suspect at least four keep an eye on the court dockets daily? Oh bother and for heaven sakes. I'm sure MM wouldn't have had second thoughts about contacting a reporter to make it public knowledge, had he attended court regarding the theft of his HD and trailer. Perhaps he would have even included the thief's name to the reporter, along with all the documentation. MOO.

I'm sure they do, but as Tamarind says, it's unlikely it would attract their attention unless they knew the name of the person charged. If you feel that MM would have reported immediately to the press if any charges were laid, then I guess it either hasn't happened or the press was not interested in the further chronicles of his Harley. JMO

 

[Tamarind]

Well the stolen Harley and trailer isn't a make-or-break part of the case...it's more of a sideshow.

Like teens, MS and DM stole a truck for kicks...and despite being ten years behind in their mental development vs. their actual age, they added an adult twist: a thrill kill. IMO.

None of the trials are going to be able to present the full 10-month crime spree.

Can you define your interpretation of a sideshow, as it relates to this case please?

Also please provide the link that identifies the alleged mental retardation of the accused. TIA

I doubt the trials will present anything about a crime spree...JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

Respectfully I think that is pretty obvious and a given being there is no PH for TB's case. MOO

From my post above: This procedure would normally take place during the preliminary hearing. Being as the PH was bypassed by the AG, the decisions to add or drop charges will take place during the pretrial phase and would be done by the judge.

Respectfully, I provided a link to a description of what happens during the pretrial motions. Here is another one...

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/pre-trial-motions.html

And here is the section from your link...

https://www.educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/criminal-and-penal-cases-superior-court-procedure

If you feel my links are incorrect, please provide a link confirming that and supporting your suggestion that the decision to add or drop charges occurs during the pretrial motions.

In regards to the quoted and bolded portions of your previous link in post #542, yes, that is what would happen in the preliminary hearing if there had been one. Since the preliminary hearing was bypassed, the Judge will not be deciding if charges will be dropped due to insufficient evidence because the Attorney General has already sent the case directly to trial. Secondly, there will not be new crimes discovered during the pretrial motions because there are no witnesses called. They are simply presenting the motions to determine what will be allowed at trial, what will be excluded, what witnesses should or should not be called, etc. etc.

What would be the point of skipping the preliminary hearing if the procedures were going to just be added into the pretrial motions?

HTH

ETA: Perhaps you are confusing the pretrial motions with the pretrial that happened long ago, before the case moved to the Superior Court?

 

[SnooperDuper]

Can you define your interpretation of a sideshow, as it relates to this case please?

Also please provide the link that identifies the alleged mental retardation of the accused. TIA

I doubt the trials will present anything about a crime spree...JMO

I mean the whole thing with the Harley and the trailer likely has little to do with any of the murders. It's not critical to proving the case in the TB murder and it's likely not at all relevant to the WM and LB cases.

I meant that the two suspects are immature and impulsive not retarded. Although, killing TB was a pretty retarded thing to do, so maybe that is the right word. Thank you.

Since the three murders are being tried separately, they won't be able to present them all together as one ten-month crime spree.

 

[Tamarind]

I mean the whole thing with the Harley and the trailer likely has little to do with any of the murders. It's not critical to proving the case in the TB murder and it's likely not at all relevant to the WM and LB cases.

I agree, I also feel that many of the 'sideshows' have had little to do with any of the alleged murders. JMO

I meant that the two suspects are immature and impulsive not retarded. Although, killing TB was a pretty retarded thing to do, so maybe that is the right word. Thank you.

Thanks for your opinion. What if the death of TB was actually an accident caused by any variety of scenarios? Or maybe someone else was involved and that comes out at trial? Retarded, impulsive or immature would not necessarily apply to DM or MS in any context imo.

Since the three murders are being tried separately, they won't be able to present them all together as one ten-month crime spree.

Yes, and you would think that if they had enough to support such a notion that they would have tried them all together, but they don't and they haven't IMHO.

 

[SnooperDuper]

I agree, I also feel that many of the 'sideshows' have had little to do with any of the alleged murders. JMO



Thanks for your opinion. What if the death of TB was actually an accident caused by any variety of scenarios? Or maybe someone else was involved and that comes out at trial? Retarded, impulsive or immature would not necessarily apply to DM or MS in any context imo.

If the accident occurred during the commission of the theft, and DM and Ms did not seek aid, is that not still first degree murder?

Yes, and you would think that if they had enough to support such a notion that they would have tried them all together, but they don't and they haven't IMHO.

No, the TB trial alone is scheduled to last 4-5 months. They'd be in court a year if they attempted to try all three cases together. Also, the only thing these crimes really have in common is DM. There is no other common denominator that we know of.

 

[swedie]

Well the stolen Harley and trailer isn't a make-or-break part of the case...it's more of a sideshow.

Like teens, MS and DM stole a truck for kicks...and despite being ten years behind in their mental development vs. their actual age, they added an adult twist: a thrill kill. IMO.

None of the trials are going to be able to present the full 10-month crime spree.

BBM - TB's truck and MM's HD and its trailer IMO. A black pickup seen by witnesses hauling MM's trailer away...takes me back to the google maps image Kamille posted of MB's house with the black pickup sitting in her driveway.

Then there's the wood chipper. Was the wood chipper one of the items sold on Kiji by SS? Or the two Bobcats? One was hauled away from the farmland, the other sitting amongst the weeds at Maplegate. Did LE haul that one away also perhaps because it was stolen also? If the Bobcat on the farmland wasn't evidence to the murders, no reason why it wasn't returned. Of course unless it was also stolen. And the trailers (MM's) that were hauled away from MA. I don't think the theft of TB's truck was their first rodeo. MOO.

 

[matou]

I wonder how many other vehicles or trailers went missing from the same area near the distillery district?

 

[Tamarind]

If the accident occurred during the commission of the theft, and DM and Ms did not seek aid, is that not still first degree murder?

We don't know that DM or MS were at the scene, or if one was and one wasn't. What if he was already dead and not able to be revived? There is a world of possibilities that could be this case IMO

No, the TB trial alone is scheduled to last 4-5 months. They'd be in court a year if they attempted to try all three cases together. Also, the only thing these crimes really have in common is DM. There is no other common denominator that we know of.

Actually MS seems to have either known or allegedly have met all three deceased or missing people. I have a feeling quite a few people knew or met all three, innocently or otherwise. JMO
If the crown had a slam dunk case as has been suggested, they could have linked all three at one trial IMO.

 

[Tamarind]

I wonder how many other vehicles or trailers went missing from the same area near the distillery district?

I expect vehicles are still going missing from that area and other areas, since the orange Harley inside a black trailer. It seems to be an ongoing thing, it certainly is in my area and surrounding areas.

 

[swedie]

I'm sure they do, but as Tamarind says, it's unlikely it would attract their attention unless they knew the name of the person charged. If you feel that MM would have reported immediately to the press if any charges were laid, then I guess it either hasn't happened or the press was not interested in the further chronicles of his Harley. JMO

Apparently it's all about opinions, and I disagree with yours and Tamarind's. My opinion is that any reporters who have been following this case would most certainly be interested in any new developments pertaining to this whole case. MM had no qualms about sharing his full story to Joe W of the TO Sun. It's been over two years since LE found MM's HD in MA's hangar, had someone else other then DM been charged with the theft, it would have been through to court system by now. IMO it hasn't come to that because DM is the person who stole MM's property. MOO.