Harvard Professor Arrested--Gates Black in America

[JBean]

That's all true, J, but it doesn't make it any more constitutional.

And furthermore, I'd say you've precisely articulated the problem. Black adults--particularly males and no matter what they accomplish--are treated as if they were juvenile delinquents. (Just as your non-delinquent sons were treated.) But if African-American men resent such treatment, according to many WS posters (though not you), THEY have a problem.

(BTW, I'm sorry you had to fix the quotes in my post above. I saw the problem and could have fixed it myself, but was too lazy. My bad.)

Howdy Nova I totally concur. It is a double edged sword.
The problem is very real, discrimination is alive and well. but one has to recognize when they are being discriminated against and when they are being legitimately targeted. Because if one cannot recognize the difference at the time,the results can be disastrous. They are effective ways to rally against discrimination and they are ineffective ways. It is wise to know that difference as well.


No worries about the quotes.but ultimately when they go unchecked, it begins to look like people said things that someone else did. in a topic this hot that would superbad.

must have been pretty hot out by you last week no?

 

[capps]

All I know is that when I heard the President on national television say:"I don't have all the facts" and "the police acted stupidly" in the same sentence,I thought he just made the whole situation worse. For a President I admire,I was sorely disappointed.

 

[Brwnigirl]

(Snipped for length and because it really doesn't matter what Obama does or does not do; you will find his conduct appalling. I don't need to help publicize your views on that.)


No you most certainly did presume to speak for me saying that it really does not matter what Obama does, I'd find his conduct appalling.......you don't know that, you don't know me......I do not have to prove or disprove the way I feel to you. You have some nerve, I'll give you that. As far as racism goes, I have failed to see the racist action in the event before Gates brought it up. Dare I say, he flung the race card out there after a cop responded to a call. Racism exists, I do not think it existed in this incident. I have no problem when people speak up regarding TRUE racism. I do have a problem when someone is doing their job and is immediately accused of being a racist. Big difference. You continue to make excuses for Gates. Well cry me a river. I don't see the same compassion for the officer who will always be that guy that was called a racist. And yeah.....I think most posters see this as Gates being a jerk..........and he was.

Just curious. What would be an example of TRUE racism to you?

 

[Nova]

Howdy Nova I totally concur. It is a double edged sword.
The problem is very real, discrimination is alive and well. but one has to recognize when they are being discriminated against and when they are being legitimately targeted. Because if one cannot recognize the difference at the time,the results can be disastrous. They are effective ways to rally against discrimination and they are ineffective ways. It is wise to know that difference as well.


No worries about the quotes.but ultimately when they go unchecked, it begins to look like people said things that someone else did. in a topic this hot that would superbad.

must have been pretty hot out by you last week no?

It's been brutal, J. We went two weeks with temps above 115. A little better this weekend, but whew!

I agree that it would be nice if African-Americans could always discern what is racism and what is merely general rudeness or simply "by the book" brusqueness.

But what magic would enable them to do that? They aren't privy to all-white conversations, and even there most white Americans avoid expressions that are overtly racist. Are blacks expected to read minds?

And furthermore, why does the primary responsibility for discernment fall on the private citizen?

Cops are supposed to be professionals. Why isn't the burden greater on them than on a private citizen, tired and cranky from a long trip, who is accosted on his own property?

If the last link supplied is correct, most of the confrontation occurred after Gates had supplied his i.d. If the officer's motives were so pure, why didn't the HE walk away? (I actually know the answer to this and I understand that police are taught to intimidate first to avoid having to use deadly force later. But why didn't this officer, with his diversity training, know better?)

 

[JBean]

It's been brutal, J. We went two weeks with temps above 115. A little better this weekend, but whew!

I agree that it would be nice if African-Americans could always discern what is racism and what is merely general rudeness or simply "by the book" brusqueness.

But what magic would enable them to do that? They aren't privy to all-white conversations, and even there most white Americans avoid expressions that are overtly racist. Are blacks expected to read minds?

And furthermore, why does the primary responsibility for discernment fall on the private citizen?

Cops are supposed to be professionals. Why isn't the burden greater on them than on a private citizen, tired and cranky from a long trip, who is accosted on his own property?

If the last link supplied is correct, most of the confrontation occurred after Gates had supplied his i.d. If the officer's motives were so pure, why didn't the HE walk away? (I actually know the answer to this and I understand that police are taught to intimidate first to avoid having to use deadly force later. But why didn't this officer, with his diversity training, know better?)

I am of the opinion that there are 3 sides to this story

I think Gates handled this poorly and as you say I think the officer should have just left once the identity was revealed and that makes his behavior equally as suspect.

I think in this case common sense should have prevailed for both parties and that is the only magic that is available to any of us.

 

[JBean]

Please guys, don't attack each other personally. It does not advance the discussion and it's annoying. thanks

 

[JBean]

This woman knows both Gates and Crowley very well, so I loved reading about her thoughts on the incident:

http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/cambridge-incident-100313.html?cxntlid=homepage_tab_newstab&imw=Y

I think this is a lot of it right here:

>>My take on it is both of these men (Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. and Cambridge police Sgt. James Crowley) got into a difficult situation and it went downhill,” said Beamud, executive director of the city’s Citizen Review Board, a police oversight committee. “Neither are used to being challenged and they responded accordingly.”<<

 

[akashana]

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1187224

Gates case shocker
Woman who called Cambridge Police says she never referred to intruders as black By Jessica Van Sack

The 40-year-old woman whose emergency call to Cambridge police sparked the arrest of Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. and a raging national debate on race relations claims she never said &#8220;black&#8221; men were breaking into his house.

&#8220;This woman is 100 percent clear on what she said,&#8221; said attorney Wendy J. Murphy, who is representing 911 caller Lucia Whalen. &#8220;She never said she saw two black men. She said, &#8216;It never crossed my mind that there were two black men.&#8217; &#8221;

In fact, Whalen, who wants the world to know she is not a racist, isn&#8217;t even white - as had been widely reported - but has &#8220;olive-colored skin and is of Portuguese descent,&#8221; Murphy said.

(snipped)

 

[akashana]

Very few, if any blacks that are living now in this Country have ever been subjected to slavery. I am certain that there are blacks that have had to deal with racism but right now there are whites that are having to deal with reverse discrimination. There are poor white people from the wrong side of the tracks that have been discriminated against and had to survive hardships too. There are some people in this Country that want to make everything a black/whie issue. In my opinion, it's more about rich or poor.JMO

I have (thankfully) had very few dealings with the criminal law system, but I spent four years as a paralegal with a firm who handled civil cases, and I saw first hand that the justice you got was the justice you could afford. Many fine and decent people are simply out-lawyered, and I imagine that it is only worse on the criminal side.

 

[miimaa]

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1187224

Gates case shocker
Woman who called Cambridge Police says she never referred to intruders as black By Jessica Van Sack

The 40-year-old woman whose emergency call to Cambridge police sparked the arrest of Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. and a raging national debate on race relations claims she never said &#8220;black&#8221; men were breaking into his house.

&#8220;This woman is 100 percent clear on what she said,&#8221; said attorney Wendy J. Murphy, who is representing 911 caller Lucia Whalen. &#8220;She never said she saw two black men. She said, &#8216;It never crossed my mind that there were two black men.&#8217; &#8221;

In fact, Whalen, who wants the world to know she is not a racist, isn&#8217;t even white - as had been widely reported - but has &#8220;olive-colored skin and is of Portuguese descent,&#8221; Murphy said.

(snipped)

I don't see what difference it makes whether she said black, white or nothing. She called someone trying to break into a house. Police arrive and see two men forcing open a door. How should the police have reacted? After all there were only two men there -- not two black men AND two white men and ony the black men questioned! Should they NOT have asked for identification -- regardless of what color the skin? Of course they should have. Once identification was provided the police should have left. Done deal.

I see a lot of discussion here on what is racisim and what isn't and how the term racism is used as an excuse. I will relate what I see on a regular basis at the college I work at. Student is failing a class because he did not do the assignments. How does he respond when he finds out he is failing? "Because I'm black" and that is a direct quote. Disruptive students are asked to leave the classroom and again, "because I'm black" is thrown in the instructors face. NO, it is not because the student is black. It is because the student was not doing the coursework or was talking on his cell phone during class. That is not racism but the student tried to use that term to be excused from being responsible. Different than the Gates situation I know.

 

[akashana]

I don't see what difference it makes whether she said black, white or nothing. She called someone trying to break into a house. Police arrive and see two men forcing open a door. How should the police have reacted? After all there were only two men there -- not two black men AND two white men and ony the black men questioned! Should they NOT have asked for identification -- regardless of what color the skin? Of course they should have. Once identification was provided the police should have left. Done deal.

I see a lot of discussion here on what is racisim and what isn't and how the term racism is used as an excuse. I will relate what I see on a regular basis at the college I work at. Student is failing a class because he did not do the assignments. How does he respond when he finds out he is failing? "Because I'm black" and that is a direct quote. Disruptive students are asked to leave the classroom and again, "because I'm black" is thrown in the instructors face. NO, it is not because the student is black. It is because the student was not doing the coursework or was talking on his cell phone during class. That is not racism but the student tried to use that term to be excused from being responsible. Different than the Gates situation I know.

MY BOLD

The media has reported she said that it was two black men trying to break in, so she wanted to set the record straight.

 

[southcitymom]

I think this is a lot of it right here:

>>My take on it is both of these men (Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. and Cambridge police Sgt. James Crowley) got into a difficult situation and it went downhill,” said Beamud, executive director of the city’s Citizen Review Board, a police oversight committee. “Neither are used to being challenged and they responded accordingly.”<<

That's ALL of it, IMHO.

 

[southcitymom]

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1187224

Gates case shocker
Woman who called Cambridge Police says she never referred to intruders as black By Jessica Van Sack

The 40-year-old woman whose emergency call to Cambridge police sparked the arrest of Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. and a raging national debate on race relations claims she never said &#8220;black&#8221; men were breaking into his house.

&#8220;This woman is 100 percent clear on what she said,&#8221; said attorney Wendy J. Murphy, who is representing 911 caller Lucia Whalen. &#8220;She never said she saw two black men. She said, &#8216;It never crossed my mind that there were two black men.&#8217; &#8221;

In fact, Whalen, who wants the world to know she is not a racist, isn&#8217;t even white - as had been widely reported - but has &#8220;olive-colored skin and is of Portuguese descent,&#8221; Murphy said.

(snipped)

LOL - the plot thickens! That IS an interesting tidbit! Thanks, akashana!

 

[akashana]

I know a bit about racism and reverse racism as I was the only white person in the non-profit agency I worked at from 1996 until Hurricane Katrina washed it away in 2005. I was the assistant program director, second in command of the agency, and there were many black folks who worked there who resented me for holding that position. They were often quite vocal about it. I didn't let it bother me because I knew that I was qualified and did an excellent job. My boss (also black) became my dear friend, and we talked and joked openly about my "token" status. I was even the care provider for two racist white clients who wouldn't allow blacks in their home, meaning I performed menial tasks that no assistant program director usually performs. I also got trotted out at meetings with agencies or community leaders who had demonstrated racist ideologies in the past, or were perceived -rightly or wrongly - to hold racist views, as my boss believed that we would be more likely to get the contract if they saw a white face. Here in Louisiana racism does indeed exist, and it flows both ways. I have many, many black friends who know I don't hold those views, but I worked with people who knew me for years and who still treated me badly only because I was white and held a higher position than them. Some wouldn't even eat at the same table as me for lunch, and I have to say that did hurt my feelings even though I tried not to let it show.

I tend to agree that both overreacted here, probably as Southcitymom says, due to too much testosterone. But in our world today it is never a given that race isn't playing a major role.

 

[Buzz Mills]

LOL - the plot thickens! That's IS an interesting tidbit! Thanks, akashana!

The Cambridge P.D. is supposed to hold a news conference shortly, regarding the forum they have formed for discussion, and the witness 911 call.

 

[Nova]

I am of the opinion that there are 3 sides to this story

I think Gates handled this poorly and as you say I think the officer should have just left once the identity was revealed and that makes his behavior equally as suspect.

I think in this case common sense should have prevailed for both parties and that is the only magic that is available to any of us.

Unless and until we get a full transcript or tape of the encounter that proves otherwise, I agree with you, J.

I think Gates was probably tired from a long trip and may have overreacted. I think the officer was probably offended by Gates' criticism and may have overreacted.

Surely we can all understand why the officer may have resented being accused of racism when, in his mind, he was merely doing his job--and in fact was trying to protect the professor's house. I can certainly imagine being filled with "righteous indignation" under those circumstances.

But we should also be able to understand how Gates--after a lifetime of police harassment of himself, his friends and family, and other African-Americans--might have bristled at treatment a white person would find unextraordinary.

(For the record, I don't know specifically what Gates' prior experience of police was. But I know how my black friends with similar education and income levels are treated, relative to how I am treated by police. It's astonishing.)

And that's really the point. A police officer who is brusque or officious to me is just an unfortunate individual. But to an African-American, that same officer may seem one more in a long line of cops, security guards, store detectives, etc., who hassle blacks, especially black men.

And in the end, the officer is the professional. A public servant in a democracy with free-speech protections doesn't get to lawfully escalate tensions because he or she is offended by criticism from a member of the public. (Just as the rest of us take considerable flack from our bosses.)

But what concerns me most here are posts from whites saying how they are "sick and tired" of African-Americans "playing the race card." If white people are "sick and tired" of the occasional complaint from a Sharpton or Gates, imagine how "sick and tired" black people must be of the subtle and usually silent racism they encounter every day?!

(Jbean, I trust you know this is a general response to the thread. I believe you and I agree about this for the most part.)

 

[Nova]

I don't see what difference it makes whether she said black, white or nothing. She called someone trying to break into a house. Police arrive and see two men forcing open a door. How should the police have reacted? After all there were only two men there -- not two black men AND two white men and ony the black men questioned! Should they NOT have asked for identification -- regardless of what color the skin? Of course they should have. Once identification was provided the police should have left. Done deal.

Indeed. And if she saw two black men and said "two black men are breaking into the house next door," what of it? But I--and I suspect everyone who knows New England--is amused at the article's suggestion that because she is of Portugese descent, she somehow can't be racist.

I see a lot of discussion here on what is racisim and what isn't and how the term racism is used as an excuse. I will relate what I see on a regular basis at the college I work at. Student is failing a class because he did not do the assignments. How does he respond when he finds out he is failing? "Because I'm black" and that is a direct quote. Disruptive students are asked to leave the classroom and again, "because I'm black" is thrown in the instructors face. NO, it is not because the student is black. It is because the student was not doing the coursework or was talking on his cell phone during class. That is not racism but the student tried to use that term to be excused from being responsible. Different than the Gates situation I know.

For many years, I taught at three different universities and you are correct here. I just want to add that students who fail are almost by definition poor candidates for taking personal responsibility, for if they were responsible, they probably wouldn't be failing.

And white students who fail come up with just as many excuses, including their own versions of "the race card." There's also the teacher doesn't like me because I'm gay, straight, Christian, Jewish, rich, poor, male, female, conservative, liberal, etc. Even though in many cases, especially in large classes, the teacher knows none of these things about the student.

 

[chicoliving]

Discuss this thread topic politely or don't discuss it at all. If you resort to name calling of the subjects of this topic and other posters then at best your posts will be deleted.

 

[akashana]

Here's an update on the 911 call:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/27/gates.arrest/index.html

(CNN) -- The woman who made the 911 call that led to the arrest of Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. never referred to black suspects when she called authorities for what she thought was a potential break-in.

Police in Cambridge, Massachusetts, released the 911 phone call Monday. In the call, Lucia Whalen reports seeing "two larger men, one looked kind of Hispanic, but I'm not really sure, and the other one entered, and I didn't see what he looked like at all."

"I just saw it from a distance, and this older woman was worried, thinking somebody's breaking in someone's house and they've been barging in," Whalen says. "She interrupted me, and that's when I noticed. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't have noticed it at all, to be honest with you. So I was just calling because she was a concerned neighbor, I guess."

(snipped)

 

[Nova]

The witness in question here says s/he did NOT mention "black men" to the police. (And the 911 tape, at least, confirms that the only race mentioned in the original call was "possibly Hispanic." After that, the officer and the witness disagree. The officer's notes say the witness said "two black men" during a pre-confrontation convo at the site; the witness says s/he didn't speak to the police when they first arrived. (My simple explanation: the officer mistook somebody at the site for the 911 caller.)

And the 911 caller's attorney says she is revealing all this to "clear my client's name."

I really don't get it.

If someone believes he or she sees two black men committing a crime, why is it wrong say so to the police?

Yes, I realize that on occasion witnesses mistakenly "see black" because they are culturally conditioned to expect perps to be black.

But are we all supposed to pretend we are blind to one of the most obvious physical characteristics (skin color)? Is that really the solution? Why did the 911 caller feel s/he had anything to clear up?