Harvard Professor Arrested--Gates Black in America

  • #241
I don't understand the point of this sort of anecdote.

Okay, so we can all think of some occasion where an African-American (or Latino, Native American, female, gay person, etc.) mistook standard procedure for prejudice. As you say, this doesn't mean "it is the case all the time." For if we are honest, we can also think of far more examples of prejudice, conscious or unconscious; and if we don't have example from real life, we can all read.

And so if "Mr. Gates has a chip on his shoulder," can't we understand why?

Mr. Gates is no different than other people that carry around a chip for various reasons. John Doe may have a chip on his shoulder because he has lost everything he has due to the poor economy. If he robs a convenience store and kills the cashier, should he be given a break because we understand why he did it? Having a chip and understanding why a person has a chip is no excuse for Mr. Gates deplorable behavior.

Suppose we all behaved as Mr. Gates did when confronted by a police officer? IMO, Mr. Obama opened the door to this scenario when he chose to comment on the incident. He can retract the statements over and over again, but it is those initial comments that will be remembered.
~IMO~
 
  • #242
I too have respect for General Powell. But I don't believe he says "never argue with a Police Officer." He does say that the most practical response to racial profiling is to keep a cool head and treat the moment as educational rather than combative. And that's probably good advice in most instances and I certainly defer to the general's experience in the matter.

But "never argue with a Police Officer" is to say they should be allowed to run amok with only the vague threat of a future paper trail to hinder them.

(For the record, I have never treated a member of LE with anything but gratitude and respect, nor have I ever had occasion to do so. I think police are asked to do an impossible job and should receive the presumption of our respect. But that is not to say their actions should never be questioned.)

The proper way to question the actions of a police officer is taking advantage of our right to file a complaint.

He recalled a lesson he was taught as a child: "When you're faced with an officer who is trying to do his job and get to the bottom of something, this is not the time to get in an argument with him.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/07/28/powell.palin/index.html#cnnSTCText
 
  • #243
The proper way to question the actions of a police officer is taking advantage of our right to file a complaint.

He recalled a lesson he was taught as a child: "When you're faced with an officer who is trying to do his job and get to the bottom of something, this is not the time to get in an argument with him.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/07/28/powell.palin/index.html#cnnSTCText


It is unquestionably true that that's the BEST way to handle any interaction with the police. It is also unquestionably true that people lip off to and argue with and get hotheaded with police officers regularly and that not all of those people get arrested.

Arresting someone for being obnoxious is a judgment call on the part of a police officer and officers are trained to de-escalate, not escalate, problems. Gates was arrested because he aggravated the hell out of Crowley, not because Crowley or anyone else though he was a criminal or dangerous.

IMHO.
 
  • #244
I think adnoid is the Mod here - maybe just send him a PM! I always bother him or JBean when I need help like that.
 
  • #245
Yes, we should all be polite and cooperative with police officers, and with DMV clerks and receptionists and customer service representatives. And police officers and DMV clerks and customer service representatives should be polite to us, too. But there is a real threat of surrendering our rights if we just meekly allow cops to be rude to us, or unfair to us, or to treat us unlawfully. Yes, they deal with some very scummy characters, but they do not have the right to treat everyone the same way they treat the scummy characters. And if we allow ourselves to be treated that way, well, it is a slippery slope.

I don't think there was a real racial element to this case until Sgt Crowley decided to arrest and handcuff Professor Gates. Remember, Crowley was all the way down the steps preparing to leave when he decided to exert his authority. He could have done the right thing then, smiled wryly at the assembled crowd, and left. At that point, Gates would have looked like a crank, and Crowley could have looked like a cool guy who was just doing his job. But Crowley, a 38 year old long time cop, decided to show Gates who was boss. That's when Gates said his "being black in America" remark. We have only Crowley's word that Gates was flinging the "R" word at Crowley inside his house.

By the time Crowley was down the steps and walking toward the sidewalk, he was well aware of who Gates was- a homeowner, a professor, a crippled man in late middle age. Please raise you hand if you think Gates was a dangerous character.

Here's the law under which he was arrested:

Section 53. Common night walkers, common street walkers, both male and female, common railers and brawlers, persons who with offensive and disorderly acts or language accost or annoy persons of the opposite sex, lewd, wanton and lascivious persons in speech or behavior, idle and disorderly persons, disturbers of the peace, keepers of noisy and disorderly houses, and persons guilty of indecent exposure may be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than six months, or by a fine of not more than two hundred dollars, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

"Disturber(s) of the peace"? Ridiculous. There is more yelling going on in Harvard Yard and in Cambridge Square any time you want to name, and there is not a massive arrest going on.

And, a police officer is required to present a card with his name and contact information to anyone who asks- he isn't supposed to say "mynameissgtcrowleybadge2212phone5551212". Did he give Gates his card?

I find it interesting that we have heard nothing from those half dozen people who witnessed the arrest as to what they saw and heard. No doubt the intrepid press will find them and ideally find out. It does occur to me that under the circumstances, some people would be hesitant to speak out against the police. You don't want to get your name on the official "S" list with the Cambridge PD. And to me, that is one of the more disturbing elements about this whole affair.

So many people seem to be of the opinion that we should just meekly submit to rude or unfair treatment by the police and keep out mouths shut for fear of being arrested. What kind of police department does that produce? I am not being silly enough to evoke stormtroopers and Bull Connors type of lawmen, but it's a slippery slope.

Yes, police have a tough job, and I respect those who choose that line of work. But I refuse to give them powers over me which they do not lawfully have, and that includes the power to be shielded from tough talk by innocent citizens.
 
  • #246
This was handled "stupidly". What would have been dinner party conversation at Professor Gates' Martha's Vineyard house is now a hot topic all over the country. I don't know how much this incident cost Cambridge PD monetarily, but there are better ways to spend it.

If this had been Professor Henry Kissinger being cuffed and given a ride downtown, there would have been an equal outcry, but without the racial element (unless the arresting officer was of another race).

When the police treat distinguished citizens in an unfair and unlawful manner- why did they drop the charges unless the only reason for the arrest was to humiliate him?- they can expect to be criticized. And if distinguished citizens protest that treatment, well, good on 'em!

And undistinguished yet honorable citizens should be well-treated also.
 
  • #247
This was handled "stupidly". What would have been dinner party conversation at Professor Gates' Martha's Vineyard house is now a hot topic all over the country. I don't know how much this incident cost Cambridge PD monetarily, but there are better ways to spend it.

If this had been Professor Henry Kissinger being cuffed and given a ride downtown, there would have been an equal outcry, but without the racial element (unless the arresting officer was of another race).

When the police treat distinguished citizens in an unfair and unlawful manner- why did they drop the charges unless the only reason for the arrest was to humiliate him?- they can expect to be criticized. And if distinguished citizens protest that treatment, well, good on 'em!

And undistinguished yet honorable citizens should be well-treated also.

On a lighter note, there was a funny little skit on Bill Maher last night for "Gates Homes Security" - to protect the public from Black Intellectuals. It was good stuff!
 
  • #248
Wish I'd seen the Maher piece- too bad SNL isn't in session now!
BTW, have you seen Prof Gates' bio? He is one busy and productive intellectual.
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~amciv/faculty/gates.shtml

PS Not to belabor a point, but if the 911 caller didn't specify the race of the two men on the porch, how did Sgt Crowley know that the cab driver/chaffeur was black? Apparently he was gone by the time police arrived... yet somehow his race was included in the police report. Maybe he wasn't black- now that would be a funny and ironic twist to this little tempest in a teapot.
 
  • #249
  • #250
Has everyone heard why they (Obama, Powell, and others) call Professor Gates "Sklp"? Chris Matthews says it is because of his limp, which he has had since injured playing touch football when he was 14. It will be interesting to see film of him standing next to the police officer.

Why would this be interesting?
 
  • #251
<And so if "Mr. Gates has a chip on his shoulder," can't we understand why?>

NO.
 
  • #252
Lucia Whalen,the woman who dialed 911,and has been labeled a racist by some,will be going to work Thursday morning,while the President invited Gates and Sgt. Crowley to the White House to have a beer to discuss the whole matter. I wonder why she wasn't invited? Because of these three she was innocently thrown into this debacle. Or is this little gathering for men only?

(just having fun playing devils' advocate..lol)
 
  • #253
Mr. Gates is no different than other people that carry around a chip for various reasons. John Doe may have a chip on his shoulder because he has lost everything he has due to the poor economy. If he robs a convenience store and kills the cashier, should he be given a break because we understand why he did it? Having a chip and understanding why a person has a chip is no excuse for Mr. Gates deplorable behavior.

Suppose we all behaved as Mr. Gates did when confronted by a police officer? IMO, Mr. Obama opened the door to this scenario when he chose to comment on the incident. He can retract the statements over and over again, but it is those initial comments that will be remembered.
~IMO~

So now speaking up in response to perceived police misconduct is equated with robbing a convenience store and MURDER???!!!

If this is what General Powell meant (which I doubt), then he--and you--need to reread the Constitution.
 
  • #254
Lucia Whalen,the woman who dialed 911,and has been labeled a racist by some,will be going to work Thursday morning,while the President invited Gates and Sgt. Crowley to the White House to have a beer to discuss the whole matter. I wonder why she wasn't invited? Because of these three she was innocently thrown into this debacle. Or is this little gathering for men only?

(just having fun playing devils' advocate..lol)

Well, as long as we're playing devil's advocate, inviting Ms. Whalen would imply that she was a party to the disagreement here. She has taken pains to say she was not.
 
  • #255
Why would this be interesting?

I believe Moraq was suggesting that a photo of Gates and Crowley side by side might shed light on how threatening Gates could have seemed.
 
  • #256
I totally agree with what Colin Powell (a man I have the utmost respect for) said last night on LK. One should never argue with a Police Officer. Filing a complaint is the proper protocol in a situation where you have a problem with the officer's conduct.

But you didn't finish, with the "rest" of what Colin Powell said. :) No, you shouldn't especially in a traffic or drug stop, etc - but when you're TRYING TO GET IN YOUR OWN HOME? In a well known and diverse community? That doesn't happen often, so what's the protocol?

I agree with what he said as well - both parties "made mistakes". That's why President Obama is trying to get them together for a "teachable moment". Otherwise, the grievances and misinterpretations (clearly related to other racial flareups that have happened constantly since Obama was nominated ) - will just continue to fester and be "misinterpreted".

But in the end, I agree that Crowley was disengenuous about what actually occurred. I look forward to hearing about the beer night.
 
  • #257
It is unquestionably true that that's the BEST way to handle any interaction with the police. It is also unquestionably true that people lip off to and argue with and get hotheaded with police officers regularly and that not all of those people get arrested.

Arresting someone for being obnoxious is a judgment call on the part of a police officer and officers are trained to de-escalate, not escalate, problems. Gates was arrested because he aggravated the hell out of Crowley, not because Crowley or anyone else though he was a criminal or dangerous.

IMHO.

Sure, you're right. However, there is a big difference in a person being argumentative, mouthing off a bit, and a person being out of control.

I have no idea how anyone could possibly know the thoughts of Crowley or anyone else on the scene. I have no doubt, had I been there, Mr. Gates behavior would have frightened me.

I think the typical police officer will tell you he/she deals with many aggravating people and situations each and every day. That said, I don't believe Crowley arrested Mr. Gates because he was aggravated. Mr. Gates was arrested because he was out of control. IMO
 
  • #258
But you didn't finish, with the "rest" of what Colin Powell said. :) No, you shouldn't especially in a traffic or drug stop, etc - but when you're TRYING TO GET IN YOUR OWN HOME? In a well known and diverse community? That doesn't happen often, so what's the protocol?

I agree with what he said as well - both parties "made mistakes". That's why President Obama is trying to get them together for a "teachable moment". Otherwise, the grievances and misinterpretations (clearly related to other racial flareups that have happened constantly since Obama was nominated ) - will just continue to fester and be "misinterpreted".

But in the end, I agree that Crowley was disengenuous about what actually occurred. I look forward to hearing about the beer night.

I think a link to the interview was sufficient.:)

There is a bit more to the story than a "man merely trying to get into his own home".
 
  • #259
Sure, you're right. However, there is a big difference in a person being argumentative, mouthing off a bit, and a person being out of control.

I have no idea how anyone could possibly know the thoughts of Crowley or anyone else on the scene. I have no doubt, had I been there, Mr. Gates behavior would have frightened me.

I think the typical police officer will tell you he/she deals with many aggravating people and situations each and every day. That said, I don't believe Crowley arrested Mr. Gates because he was aggravated. Mr. Gates was arrested because he was out of control. IMO

Well, it should be easy to prove this. He was not arrested until he went out onto his own porch. So he must not have been out of control-stamping his foot, waving his cane, shouting with his bronchially-affected voice, asking for the officer's ID-while inside. The several non-police witnesses may be able to shed light on exactly what Gates did to so frighten the officer.

How do you define out of control?

Toddlers, teenagers, mentally ill persons, drunks- its easy to imagine those sorts of people being out of control...but a man of Gates' years, physical condition, and station in life...not so much. Absent threatening the safety of Crowley or others, I can't believe he was really out of control.

Why were the charges dismissed? I am sure the case would have been laughed out of court. There may or may not have been a racial element to this case, probably not, but there was an element of a cop doing something because he could, not because it was necessary.

Gates was arrested for yelling (hoarsely) on his own porch. And I'll bet he wasn't yelling, "I'll kill youse all" or anything stronger than "Get off my lawn."

Let's assume that police represent 1% of the population. Are the remaining 99% of us obliged to kowtow to them on the off chance that we will upset them? Or should the 1% have a better grip on their temperament and avoid arresting honorable citizens who may have p---ed them off or embarrassed them? I like and admire cops in general, but they make mistakes, too, and I will not grovel nor surrender my 1st amendment rights just to placate them. Shouldn't be necessary in our country.
 
  • #260
I believe Moraq was suggesting that a photo of Gates and Crowley side by side might shed light on how threatening Gates could have seemed.

Mind sharing what putting a photo of both side to side would prove?:)
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
155
Guests online
1,322
Total visitors
1,477

Forum statistics

Threads
632,404
Messages
18,625,996
Members
243,138
Latest member
BlueMaven
Back
Top