Has the defense created reasonable doubt?

[thedeviledadvocate]

This has been an interesting and lively thread the past 24 hours. I think it resembles some of the deliberation that will be going on after closing arguments. Remember, in order to convict on any of these 7 charges, the jury must vote unanimously on each guilty verdict. It's almost a given the 4 charges of lying to the police will be a guilty verdict. The other 3 charges however, will be much more difficult to decide on a unanimous decision.

Regardless that HHJP has tried to make the jury comfortable during this trial, that in no way, shape or form should have any influence over what this jury decides. I have much more faith in this jury than thinking a steak dinner will buy a gulty verdict, or even that missing a fourth of july celebration would have any influence whatsoever on a verdict.

There are obviously some disagreements in opinions within this thread. I would guess there will also be some disagreements in the opinions of the jurors. We really don't have long to wait, in light of the fact that we have all been waiting nearly 3 years. I know the next 3 days will seem an eternity, but the verdict will be known to us all very very soon.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only

 

[GeekyGirl]

Even if it was an accident did Casey handle this right? Casey took LE on a wild goose chase, basically made fools of them. Cindy had to literally go and find Casey, Casey was sleeping around, screwing and tattoing as one famous lawyer is now saying.... She's seen shopping and renting movies..........is this the way a normal mother acts if her child died due to an accident (or any other way of death) for that matter.
And it may not be the law but if this is how she acted over an accidental death then IMO she at least deserves LWOP. She threw her child away like trash...could anything else be more dispicable????

Makes her a terrible, heinous human being, not guilty of murder.

 

[mrsu]

When the remains were found, the skin was gone, so the tape was no longer stuck to the 'face' because it had decomposed fully. But it was still stuck to the hair. It would not be stuck to the skull because it never was stuck to the skull because the skin was in the way.

How do we know it was ONCE stuck to the face? Because the mandible was still in place, and would not be unless it had been fastened in some way, like with tape.

That tape could not have been used to close the garbage bags because it would
fully melted together in that florida heat and the heat of the trunk. imo

I'm not disputing the facts here, but I'm curious how the mandible stays in place even though all the skin/muscle/etc. was decomposed and even after the tape came off.

How long after death before the mandible is no longer intact?

Could the duct tape have been placed very shortly after death in attempt to prevent leaking fluids and/or gases?

 

[ami]

As far as evidence once the remains have become skeletonized goes - unless her bones were broken, you simply wouldn't expect to find any cause of death period. Poison, gunshot through soft tissue and drowning would all look the same.

So considering Caylee's remains were just a skeleton, the only direct evidence you could possibly expect to find would be an eye witness, stuff the murderer did or said that points to a murder weapon or method, or something lying around near the body that could have killed the person.

It's completely possible that a murderer could be "smart" enough to make sure they weren't being watched when they committed the crime, they didn't leave the murder weapon lying suggestively near the body and they didn't do anything in the months leading up to the murder that pointed toward their killing method.

Scott Peterson hid numbers one and two, but he left internet searches that led to an assumption of #3. That alone was considered evidence enough (plus his behavior) to convict. No one knew how Laci died or when she died. My guess is when the murderer tries to cover their tracks, the lack of a "smoking gun" still being held in the killer's hand is the norm... and other things are used to convict.

So when people say the State didn't provide evidence of murder, all I can think of is: if by evidence you mean a video of ICA killing her, or a typed confession, or a chloroform bottle with ICA's finger prints on it next to a print out of how to make it etc etc - it seems like an unrealistic expectation that is very rarely met in complicated murder cases.

I think considering all above, ICA left a WEALTH of evidence of her crime. Computer searches for "how to make chloroform" that were searched months in advance but only deleted once the cops were on to her, combined with high chloroform levels next to decomposition byproducts in the trunk... I mean that IS the equivalent of a smoking gun with fingerprints. She was SUPER lazy, stupid or insane to leave that MUCH evidence pointing like an arrow at her.

(I equate that evidence to Scott Peterson looking up the tides and then admitting to going fishing in the very place Laci and Conner's bodies were found -- did anyone see him dump her? No. But was that as direct evidence as one could hope a criminal would leave when he did dump her? Yes, IMO)

Even without the duct tape that came from her own home and ended up attached to her daughter's head when the remains were found, the tossing of the body so close to her own home and the cryptic "close to home" comments - the chloroform alone is such a complete story (and one the defense never explained - even their own experts found it and said they didn't expect to) that I would feel safe in believing the person who searched it on the computer multiple times (ruled out everyone but ICA) was the person who caused it to be found in their own trunk next to proof of death, was the person who deleted the searches the day after LE was on to them.

Honestly, I'm surprised there was so MUCH evidence with all the time that passed and time the family had to clean and scrub and deflect and inhibit. I sometimes watch 48 hours mystery or read true crime books of amazing feats of logic and masterminding the police do to connect one tiny almost inconsequential fact or detail with another and solve the case and convict.

With poor Caylee, you don't even need to reach to connect the dots. The murderer looked up "guns" and left the gunsmoke next to the corpse at a time everyone else was verifiably elsewhere... I think it was an amazing and lucky act of stupidity on her part that left such a clear trail back to her.

 

[Zuckerschnecke]

Why would we assume that? It a disheartening fact, but not every mother loves her child, especially people who exhibit signs of NPD and sociopathic traits.

Right, however, ICA was going to have to tell someone at some point where Caylee was. She doesn't have the right to dispose of her, through accidental death or murder, as she chooses. Sooner or later, someone was going to wonder where Caylee was. There is no reason, unless one is guilty, to make up lie after lie after lie after lie. She's not insane, and she's not stupid. Once they threw those handcuffs on her the first time and that kid died in an accident, she better have been spilling the beans. She's been doing nothing but sitting in a jail cell thinking of how she was going to get out of THIS mess. Well guess what. I think she's in for an eye opener.

 

[Tuffy]

OOPs, my mistake. It was when he was arguing for acquittal or mistrial, correct?

Whew! Thanks, I was just panicking.

 

[Who_What_When]

I hope they do recognize, though, that GA was not on trial here. If the state had some evidence to charge him with he would have been in the dock right along with Casey.

So do I! I think the whole defense was ridiculous and I despise what Casey has done to her family, that in itself makes me hope she gets life in prision (not the dp because I just don't believe in it), but I don't know that she will. I do think she'll get at least 30 years with aggravated manslaughter and I know that a few people have mentioned that with AM she could get 1st degree murder if they find that it was a willful act of child abuse and not just an accidental child neglect.

 

[Bon]

Whew! Thanks, I was just panicking.

Sooooooo sorry!

 

[Tuffy]

I'm not disputing the facts here, but I'm curious how the mandible stays in place even though all the skin/muscle/etc. was decomposed.

How long after death before the mandible is no longer intact?

Could the duct tape have been placed very shortly after death in attempt to prevent leaking fluids and/or gases?

BBM: If by 'intact' you mean, in place, the mandible will stay in place until the muscle, skin, and other soft tissue decompose. The tape held it in place. That is what is remarkable about this case. More than one of the experts mentioned that it is usual to not find the mandible near the skull in cases where skeletal remains are found.

 

[GeekyGirl]

So when people say the State didn't provide evidence of murder, all I can think of is: if by evidence you mean a video of ICA killing her, or a typed confession, or a chloroform bottle with ICA's finger prints on it next to a print out of how to make it etc etc - it seems like an unrealistic expectation that is very rarely met in complicated murder cases.
her.

Respectfully snipped by me

I disagree, it's not that black and white. What would I need? Any evidence Casey actually manufactured chloroform would have been enough for me.

 

[Who_What_When]

This has been an interesting and lively thread the past 24 hours. I think it resembles some of the deliberation that will be going on after closing arguments. Remember, in order to convict on any of these 7 charges, the jury must vote unanimously on each guilty verdict. It's almost a given the 4 charges of lying to the police will be a guilty verdict. The other 3 charges however, will be much more difficult to decide on a unanimous decision.

Regardless that HHJP has tried to make the jury comfortable during this trial, that in no way, shape or form should have any influence over what this jury decides. I have much more faith in this jury than thinking a steak dinner will buy a gulty verdict, or even that missing a fourth of july celebration would have any influence whatsoever on a verdict.

There are obviously some disagreements in opinions within this thread. I would guess there will also be some disagreements in the opinions of the jurors. We really don't have long to wait, in light of the fact that we have all been waiting nearly 3 years. I know the next 3 days will seem an eternity, but the verdict will be known to us all very very soon.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only

Thank You! I appreciate that you can step back and view it for what it is. It's not that Geekygirl and I think that Casey is innocent, we are not saying that, we are just deliberating the circumstances in this case as the jury will do, by following the instructions they are given on each count. I agree with you that it's a given that she will be found guilty of lying, if not we should be very worried! LOL

 

[Tuffy]

There's a post earlier in thread where I considered how hard it would be to suffocate a conscious child with duct tape.I'm sorry, I just can't type it again, it was too hard.

How about a child that was unconscious? Say perhaps chloroform was used on that child?

 

[Tuffy]

okay she's a bad person how only cared about herself. She's NPD. Does not prove MURDER.

LOL, that she is! It's all that pesky evidence that proves the MURDER part though.

 

[LambChop]

okay she's a bad person how only cared about herself. She's NPD. Does not prove MURDER.

She's not just a bad person. She left her child in a swamp to be torn apart by animals without giving it a second though. Even if there were no duct tape there is no logical reason to hide a child who died an accidental death much less blame someone else. And she is still trying to do it to this day. To stay in jail for 3 years fighting her case by blaming ZG, RG, AH, RK and now GA when the most logical reason is KC was Caylee's mother and was the last person seen with her. Liars have no credibility so you look at what you have. Even without the pictures of the skull it's pretty clear who did this and why.

Mallory claims KC and Caylee had an amazing bond. The 31 days do not back that up because even a mother who was not so "amazing" would go to the end of the earth to try to find their child, unless she killed the child herself. jmo

 

[mrsu]

How long after death before the mandible is no longer intact?

Quoting myself.

After some googling on the above question I found that the jaw will stay in tact until after rigor mortis which can last 72 hours. After rigor mortis, the body starts decomposition. So, there COULD have been potentially 3 days for the duct tape to be added after death.

But what about rigor mortis? After death, the joints and muscles stiffen in a condition known as rigor mortis. How soon it begins and how long this lasts depends on temperature and other factors. Onset is from 10 minutes to several hours, beginning with facial muscles. Greatest stiffness may be 12-48 hours after death, and rigor mortis may last up to 72 hours. The bottom line is that the muscles remain contracted until they start decomposing.

If the State was presenting that as their cause of death, why didn't the DT do more to refute that fact.

 

[GeekyGirl]

How about a child that was unconscious? Say perhaps chloroform was used on that child?

And again I have a really long post about why I don't think the chloroform evidence is conclusive. I understand if do, I just don't. MOO

 

[GeekyGirl]

LOL, that she is! It's all that pesky evidence that proves the MURDER part though.

That's sort of disrespectful. A lot of us have posted very detailed, in depth posts on why we have problems with the evidence that supports murder BARD. You're completely entitled to your opinion, but others are entitled to not share your opinion.

 

[pcrum12]

LOL, that she is! It's all that pesky evidence that proves the MURDER part though.

Homicide yes. But , 1st degree murder, they didn't quite sell me yet.

 

[pcrum12]

Love this thread! We've been at it since last night lol!

 

[katydid23]

Why would we assume that? It a disheartening fact, but not every mother loves her child, especially people who exhibit signs of NPD and sociopathic traits.

Well, if the jury is going to decide it was an accident, but the mom didn't grieve because she did not care one way or the other if the child was dead. And the mom put the body in the trunk, then wrapped it in garbage bags and threw it in a dump--are they going to want to show her any mercy or any benefit of the doubt?
I wouldn't. Her actions--trying to blame innocent people for the childs death, torturing her family for the past 3 years, accusing her father and brother of vile acts, accusing her dad of being involved---these actions should earn her LWOP.